We are coming to a point where it's not fun anymore to play killer
I am not lying. Gen Rushing is a problem. First time I am above Rank 5 and I am feeling cyberbullied. This is ridiculous how survivor sided this game is. The only way to block Gen Rushing is being a perfect nurse and I can understand it's hard to balance the game but. It doesn't make any fun if I find a survivor and hook him and boom two gens done. I mean really? I don't even have a chance to "pressure" them if I am carrying a survivor which is really good at looping (at rank 5 and above everyone is good at it) and I have a Pallet Eater Demon Build (Spirit Fury, Brutal Strength, Enduring and BBQ (for farming sum points) ). Also several killers need a buff or a rework (Like freddy or piggy).
I don't want in a game where is one or two perks are essential (NOED and Ruin). Just balance your game.
Comments
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I completely agree. I end most killer games just feeling frustrated. It's annoying, really annoying.
10 -
We aren't coming to a point it's been this point for years. Devs cater to survivors because theirs more survivor players that killers. And if the game isn't so braindead easy to play survivor and more harder then they'll all leave and review bomb the game which alot of entitled survivors mains put bad reviews when he devs fixed the pallet vacuum bug and put the hatch close mechanic. They probably wont put it back in becuase the hatch is such a crutch for bad players theyll all leave the game which 90% of survivor mains are bad without their overpowerd perks.
7 -
I hated Ruin when I first started playing, since I'd began as Survivor. But as I began to play killer, I became more and more annoyed. Not to mention I have to play hag a bit more to even GET Ruin available. It's ridiculous I have to play a killer I'm not even all that fond of, just to get a perk, to be able to make playing killer worth playing at all. Without Ruin, you're going to be gen rushed. Then there's things like body hook blocking, blinding, palette looping, stunning, and the BMing is ridiculous, but I suppose that, in and of itself, is an entirely different issue. I'm not even that into the game, I only have 80 or so hours, and I don't even like playing killer as much. It's just... sad. I'm a fine survivor without any broken perks. I've been working with just urban evasion and Deja vu for the most part. With those two I've been able to climb to rank 10 from 20, and that's with maybe playing 20 hours as survivor.
But it feels out of place sometimes. I'm still very new, so maybe I don't know as much as I think I do, but I've been gaming long enough to know imbalances when I see them. And Dead by Daylight is by no means balanced.Then they release Legion who, I see what they were going for, but the killer is, as a whole, very weak.
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And this is the best state the games been in. . Just wait for BT changes and breakdown... survivors are going to be gods again1
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@Bravo0413 I've had the game for years but never really played it seriously? I mean, like I'd had it back when KYF gave you BP. But ... if this is the best state the game's been in... How bad was it before I'd returned... ?
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That's why I play spirit. There's only a few killers that can get around these issues somewhat. For the vast majority of the killers available you're pretty much just boned unless the survivors are dumb. This isn't new though, it's been this way for years and devs don't care.
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Not everybody wants to play competitive, especially if the devs only want 2 killers ro be viable..
I suggest you derank like I do if you have the time. Rank 1 had no rewards anyway, so why not save yourself the trouble and have fun?0 -
@Master said:
Not everybody wants to play competitive, especially if the devs only want 2 killers ro be viable..
I suggest you derank like I do if you have the time. Rank 1 had no rewards anyway, so why not save yourself the trouble and have fun?Spirit is viable at rank 1 and why is it that so many people other than you seem to be able to play all these unviable killers at rank 1 just fine? You'd think that after 2 years you'd have no issues playing them at rank 1 just fine.
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@powerbats said:
@Master said:
Not everybody wants to play competitive, especially if the devs only want 2 killers ro be viable..
I suggest you derank like I do if you have the time. Rank 1 had no rewards anyway, so why not save yourself the trouble and have fun?Spirit is viable at rank 1 and why is it that so many people other than you seem to be able to play all these unviable killers at rank 1 just fine? You'd think that after 2 years you'd have no issues playing them at rank 1 just fine.
Even the devs only named billy and nurse when they talked about competitive players, i was just refering to them
3 -
"technically it's a competitive game". Like saying Rock, Paper, Scissors is competitive.
It's been said many times... Competitive game - DbD. Pick one.
Post edited by only1biggs on1 -
@SilverMaster said:
I am not lying. Gen Rushing is a problem. First time I am above Rank 5 and I am feeling cyberbullied. This is ridiculous how survivor sided this game is. The only way to block Gen Rushing is being a perfect nurse and I can understand it's hard to balance the game but. It doesn't make any fun if I find a survivor and hook him and boom two gens done. I mean really? I don't even have a chance to "pressure" them if I am carrying a survivor which is really good at looping (at rank 5 and above everyone is good at it) and I have a Pallet Eater Demon Build (Spirit Fury, Brutal Strength, Enduring and BBQ (for farming sum points) ). Also several killers need a buff or a rework (Like freddy or piggy).
I don't want in a game where is one or two perks are essential (NOED and Ruin). Just balance your game.This has to be bait.
It's never been easier for killers and "gen rush" just means you haven't started well or pressured correctly (not chased properly).
Sorry, but..."git gud"
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Two sides -one team and one single player- play against each other.
That is by nature competitive.1 -
@only1biggs said:
@SilverMaster said:
I am not lying. Gen Rushing is a problem. First time I am above Rank 5 and I am feeling cyberbullied. This is ridiculous how survivor sided this game is. The only way to block Gen Rushing is being a perfect nurse and I can understand it's hard to balance the game but. It doesn't make any fun if I find a survivor and hook him and boom two gens done. I mean really? I don't even have a chance to "pressure" them if I am carrying a survivor which is really good at looping (at rank 5 and above everyone is good at it) and I have a Pallet Eater Demon Build (Spirit Fury, Brutal Strength, Enduring and BBQ (for farming sum points) ). Also several killers need a buff or a rework (Like freddy or piggy).
I don't want in a game where is one or two perks are essential (NOED and Ruin). Just balance your game.This has to be bait.
It's never been easier for killers and "gen rush" just means you haven't started well or pressured correctly (not chased properly).
Sorry, but..."git gud"
Dude? What the? Just read the comments. "git gud" Hmm... Kinda difficult when I am trying to pressure while dragging the survivor on a hook and immediately two gens done. Yep. git gud. Maybe buff Killer or Nerf Survivor how about raising the time to finish a gen from 80 to 120. Or remove toolboxes.
But ayyy git gud. Yeah, thanks for that.6 -
Agreed for both sides. Making a gen for 80 seconds and getting gen rush is not fun at all.
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Just mentioning CAMPING is not a way to win to win the game! I want to win like a fair killer but sadly the survivor isn't playing fair with flashlight saves pallet saves DS Adrenaline and a lot of Toolboxes.
So I am questioning myself, why the heck are we, the killers, playing fair when survivors don't do it. Maybe because we don't want to get flamed? Maybe because we want to play them correctly? But I think it's time to switch the side from Killer to Survivor. They have it a LOT easier than the Killer. I mean they only have 6 Objectives while we have to hook 3 TIMES until a Survivor is dead. Which means 12 times to get 4K but only 3K to win (9 hooks).1 -
I mean there was a time when double pallet loops were a thing along with a window next to them and the pallet vacuum was still in... insta bnp hadn't been nerfed either, old bt, old DS.... the game is in its best state....are the gens still too damn fast yeah...DS_Gets_FaceCamped said:@Bravo0413 I've had the game for years but never really played it seriously? I mean, like I'd had it back when KYF gave you BP. But ... if this is the best state the game's been in... How bad was it before I'd returned... ?
1 -
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@Master said:
@powerbats said:
@Master said:
Not everybody wants to play competitive, especially if the devs only want 2 killers ro be viable..
I suggest you derank like I do if you have the time. Rank 1 had no rewards anyway, so why not save yourself the trouble and have fun?Spirit is viable at rank 1 and why is it that so many people other than you seem to be able to play all these unviable killers at rank 1 just fine? You'd think that after 2 years you'd have no issues playing them at rank 1 just fine.
Even the devs only named billy and nurse when they talked about competitive players, i was just refering to them
Ah thanks for the clarification then, but I do have to laugh given the ahem comments directed towards the devs and understanding playing viable at rank 1.
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@SilverMaster said:
@only1biggs said:
@SilverMaster said:
I am not lying. Gen Rushing is a problem. First time I am above Rank 5 and I am feeling cyberbullied. This is ridiculous how survivor sided this game is. The only way to block Gen Rushing is being a perfect nurse and I can understand it's hard to balance the game but. It doesn't make any fun if I find a survivor and hook him and boom two gens done. I mean really? I don't even have a chance to "pressure" them if I am carrying a survivor which is really good at looping (at rank 5 and above everyone is good at it) and I have a Pallet Eater Demon Build (Spirit Fury, Brutal Strength, Enduring and BBQ (for farming sum points) ). Also several killers need a buff or a rework (Like freddy or piggy).
I don't want in a game where is one or two perks are essential (NOED and Ruin). Just balance your game.This has to be bait.
It's never been easier for killers and "gen rush" just means you haven't started well or pressured correctly (not chased properly).
Sorry, but..."git gud"
Dude? What the? Just read the comments. "git gud" Hmm... Kinda difficult when I am trying to pressure while dragging the survivor on a hook and immediately two gens done. Yep. git gud. Maybe buff Killer or Nerf Survivor how about raising the time to finish a gen from 80 to 120. Or remove toolboxes.
But ayyy git gud. Yeah, thanks for that.Did you read ANYTHING before I apologetically used the term "git gud"?
How about this... in the scenario you described (two gens popping when you finally catch someone), This happens because you didn't catch the person fast enough, because you didn't find them quickly enough or you didn't chase correctly.
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@Bravo0413 said:
Wolf74 said:@Master said:
Not everybody wants to play competitive,...
How do you play a Pvp-Versus-Game non-competitive?
So much this /....... can you meme a little yeah.... but when it comes down to it people are going to wanna compete because that's how most have playing pvp
DbD is NOT one of those games.
Again..
Competitive game - DbD. Pick one.
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@only1biggs said:
@SilverMaster said:
@only1biggs said:
@SilverMaster said:
I am not lying. Gen Rushing is a problem. First time I am above Rank 5 and I am feeling cyberbullied. This is ridiculous how survivor sided this game is. The only way to block Gen Rushing is being a perfect nurse and I can understand it's hard to balance the game but. It doesn't make any fun if I find a survivor and hook him and boom two gens done. I mean really? I don't even have a chance to "pressure" them if I am carrying a survivor which is really good at looping (at rank 5 and above everyone is good at it) and I have a Pallet Eater Demon Build (Spirit Fury, Brutal Strength, Enduring and BBQ (for farming sum points) ). Also several killers need a buff or a rework (Like freddy or piggy).
I don't want in a game where is one or two perks are essential (NOED and Ruin). Just balance your game.This has to be bait.
It's never been easier for killers and "gen rush" just means you haven't started well or pressured correctly (not chased properly).
Sorry, but..."git gud"
Dude? What the? Just read the comments. "git gud" Hmm... Kinda difficult when I am trying to pressure while dragging the survivor on a hook and immediately two gens done. Yep. git gud. Maybe buff Killer or Nerf Survivor how about raising the time to finish a gen from 80 to 120. Or remove toolboxes.
But ayyy git gud. Yeah, thanks for that.Did you read ANYTHING before I apologetically used the term "git gud"?
How about this... in the scenario you described (two gens popping when you finally catch someone), This happens because you didn't catch the person fast enough, because you didn't find them quickly enough or you didn't chase correctly.
That's nonsense. Assuming ruin isn't in play and the presence of two or more toolboxes, that is beyond a likely scenario that has nothing to do with the killers skill.
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@SilverMaster said:
Just mentioning CAMPING is not a way to win to win the game! I want to win like a fair killer but sadly the survivor isn't playing fair with flashlight saves pallet saves DS Adrenaline and a lot of Toolboxes.
So I am questioning myself, why the heck are we, the killers, playing fair when survivors don't do it. Maybe because we don't want to get flamed? Maybe because we want to play them correctly? But I think it's time to switch the side from Killer to Survivor. They have it a LOT easier than the Killer. I mean they only have 6 Objectives while we have to hook 3 TIMES until a Survivor is dead. Which means 12 times to get 4K but only 3K to win (9 hooks).
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@Wahara said:
@only1biggs said:
@SilverMaster said:
@only1biggs said:
@SilverMaster said:
I am not lying. Gen Rushing is a problem. First time I am above Rank 5 and I am feeling cyberbullied. This is ridiculous how survivor sided this game is. The only way to block Gen Rushing is being a perfect nurse and I can understand it's hard to balance the game but. It doesn't make any fun if I find a survivor and hook him and boom two gens done. I mean really? I don't even have a chance to "pressure" them if I am carrying a survivor which is really good at looping (at rank 5 and above everyone is good at it) and I have a Pallet Eater Demon Build (Spirit Fury, Brutal Strength, Enduring and BBQ (for farming sum points) ). Also several killers need a buff or a rework (Like freddy or piggy).
I don't want in a game where is one or two perks are essential (NOED and Ruin). Just balance your game.This has to be bait.
It's never been easier for killers and "gen rush" just means you haven't started well or pressured correctly (not chased properly).
Sorry, but..."git gud"
Dude? What the? Just read the comments. "git gud" Hmm... Kinda difficult when I am trying to pressure while dragging the survivor on a hook and immediately two gens done. Yep. git gud. Maybe buff Killer or Nerf Survivor how about raising the time to finish a gen from 80 to 120. Or remove toolboxes.
But ayyy git gud. Yeah, thanks for that.Did you read ANYTHING before I apologetically used the term "git gud"?
How about this... in the scenario you described (two gens popping when you finally catch someone), This happens because you didn't catch the person fast enough, because you didn't find them quickly enough or you didn't chase correctly.
That's nonsense. Assuming ruin isn't in play and the presence of two or more toolboxes, that is beyond a likely scenario that has nothing to do with the killers skill.
...Okay?
So you want survivors to do what exactly? Wait for you to catch someone?
Let's say those two gens do pop when you get someone on the hook. Now you go get another survivor. Now there's no gens being done because people have OTHER objectives to complete, such as helping their team.
Or, just exclaim everything reasonable is "nonsense" because you're not good at the game? Your choice.
6 -
Again: "Gen Rush"
There are 4 survivor, but only 1 killer.
The killer can always only chase 1 survivor and keep him of the gens.
Switching targets is not beneficial to the killer, because the other one will heal up asap and the chase until the 1st victim is on the hook only gets longer.
And good survivor spread out anyway and try to stay away from each other.
So with an average hit taking 30-40 seconds against a decent survivor (especially at the start of a match with all pallets still available) [good runner can make it even longer than that], plus the time to carry someone to the hook, we have 70-90 seconds for the 1st hook (not including DS, insta heals, etc.), while a gen is done in 80 seconds by a single survivor working on it (not included great checks and toolboxes).
So 3 gens can pop the moment the killer got his first hook.
Survivor have basically 6 objectives -5 gens and 1 gate- and have done half of them already.
Killer need at least 6 hooks (without camping) to kill 2 survivor, which is considered a "balanced" result.
If the killer wants to "win" and get more than 2 kills, he needs 9-11 hooks.
(Not talking about chases, because not every successful chase results in a hook.)
So the killer has achieved 1/6 of his objectives or 1/10 of his objectives, depending on what you aim for (2 kills are enough or more to "win").
So we have 50% of the survivors objectives completed versus 10% of the killers objectives in the same amount of time.But still there is this strange myth that this missmatch is a result of the killers "incompetence" to hunt or control the gens.
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@Wolf74 said:
But still there is this strange myth that this missmatch is a result of the killers "incompetence" to hunt or control the gens.It's not a myth.
Get out of the mid ranks and stop pulling your internet cord.
Practice makes perfect, but you must be willing to learn
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@Wolf74 said:
Again: "Gen Rush"
There are 4 survivor, but only 1 killer.
The killer can always only chase 1 survivor and keep him of the gens.
Switching targets is not beneficial to the killer, because the other one will heal up asap and the chase until the 1st victim is on the hook only gets longer.
And good survivor spread out anyway and try to stay away from each other.
So with an average hit taking 30-40 seconds against a decent survivor (especially at the start of a match with all pallets still available) [good runner can make it even longer than that], plus the time to carry someone to the hook, we have 70-90 seconds for the 1st hook (not including DS, insta heals, etc.), while a gen is done in 80 seconds by a single survivor working on it (not included great checks and toolboxes).
So 3 gens can pop the moment the killer got his first hook.
Survivor have basically 6 objectives -5 gens and 1 gate- and have done half of them already.
Killer need at least 6 hooks (without camping) to kill 2 survivor, which is considered a "balanced" result.
If the killer wants to "win" and get more than 2 kills, he needs 9-11 hooks.
(Not talking about chases, because not every successful chase results in a hook.)
So the killer has achieved 1/6 of his objectives or 1/10 of his objectives, depending on what you aim for (2 kills are enough or more to "win").
So we have 50% of the survivors objectives completed versus 10% of the killers objectives in the same amount of time.But still there is this strange myth that this missmatch is a result of the killers "incompetence" to hunt or control the gens.
+1
The people not understanding this are the ones that don't play both sides at rank 1 with enough hours.3 -
@only1biggs said:
@Wahara said:
@only1biggs said:
@SilverMaster said:
@only1biggs said:
@SilverMaster said:
I am not lying. Gen Rushing is a problem. First time I am above Rank 5 and I am feeling cyberbullied. This is ridiculous how survivor sided this game is. The only way to block Gen Rushing is being a perfect nurse and I can understand it's hard to balance the game but. It doesn't make any fun if I find a survivor and hook him and boom two gens done. I mean really? I don't even have a chance to "pressure" them if I am carrying a survivor which is really good at looping (at rank 5 and above everyone is good at it) and I have a Pallet Eater Demon Build (Spirit Fury, Brutal Strength, Enduring and BBQ (for farming sum points) ). Also several killers need a buff or a rework (Like freddy or piggy).
I don't want in a game where is one or two perks are essential (NOED and Ruin). Just balance your game.This has to be bait.
It's never been easier for killers and "gen rush" just means you haven't started well or pressured correctly (not chased properly).
Sorry, but..."git gud"
Dude? What the? Just read the comments. "git gud" Hmm... Kinda difficult when I am trying to pressure while dragging the survivor on a hook and immediately two gens done. Yep. git gud. Maybe buff Killer or Nerf Survivor how about raising the time to finish a gen from 80 to 120. Or remove toolboxes.
But ayyy git gud. Yeah, thanks for that.Did you read ANYTHING before I apologetically used the term "git gud"?
How about this... in the scenario you described (two gens popping when you finally catch someone), This happens because you didn't catch the person fast enough, because you didn't find them quickly enough or you didn't chase correctly.
That's nonsense. Assuming ruin isn't in play and the presence of two or more toolboxes, that is beyond a likely scenario that has nothing to do with the killers skill.
...Okay?
So you want survivors to do what exactly? Wait for you to catch someone?
Let's say those two gens do pop when you get someone on the hook. Now you go get another survivor. Now there's no gens being done because people have OTHER objectives to complete, such as helping their team.
Or, just exclaim everything reasonable is "nonsense" because you're not good at the game? Your choice.
Take your obtuse rhetorical question and shove it up your ass, obstinate twit. No one was saying that, the thread was discussing how killer has become unfun to play, and you erroneously tried to simplify the matter in terms of "getting good" like most survivors typically do when they don't want to acknowledge their advantages. I challenged you on that and you clearly don't have a leg to stand on save for moving the goal posts. But I'll humor you. "No gens getting done" isn't likely in an SWF group because they would designate someone to be the rescuer while keeping everyone else on the objective. Even in random groups with the frequency of bond, it's not hard to see who's closest to getting the save so can you can stick to what you're doing.
5 -
@Wahara said:
@only1biggs said:
@Wahara said:
@only1biggs said:
@SilverMaster said:
@only1biggs said:
@SilverMaster said:
I am not lying. Gen Rushing is a problem. First time I am above Rank 5 and I am feeling cyberbullied. This is ridiculous how survivor sided this game is. The only way to block Gen Rushing is being a perfect nurse and I can understand it's hard to balance the game but. It doesn't make any fun if I find a survivor and hook him and boom two gens done. I mean really? I don't even have a chance to "pressure" them if I am carrying a survivor which is really good at looping (at rank 5 and above everyone is good at it) and I have a Pallet Eater Demon Build (Spirit Fury, Brutal Strength, Enduring and BBQ (for farming sum points) ). Also several killers need a buff or a rework (Like freddy or piggy).
I don't want in a game where is one or two perks are essential (NOED and Ruin). Just balance your game.This has to be bait.
It's never been easier for killers and "gen rush" just means you haven't started well or pressured correctly (not chased properly).
Sorry, but..."git gud"
Dude? What the? Just read the comments. "git gud" Hmm... Kinda difficult when I am trying to pressure while dragging the survivor on a hook and immediately two gens done. Yep. git gud. Maybe buff Killer or Nerf Survivor how about raising the time to finish a gen from 80 to 120. Or remove toolboxes.
But ayyy git gud. Yeah, thanks for that.Did you read ANYTHING before I apologetically used the term "git gud"?
How about this... in the scenario you described (two gens popping when you finally catch someone), This happens because you didn't catch the person fast enough, because you didn't find them quickly enough or you didn't chase correctly.
That's nonsense. Assuming ruin isn't in play and the presence of two or more toolboxes, that is beyond a likely scenario that has nothing to do with the killers skill.
...Okay?
So you want survivors to do what exactly? Wait for you to catch someone?
Let's say those two gens do pop when you get someone on the hook. Now you go get another survivor. Now there's no gens being done because people have OTHER objectives to complete, such as helping their team.
Or, just exclaim everything reasonable is "nonsense" because you're not good at the game? Your choice.
Take your obtuse rhetorical question and shove it up your ass, obstinate twit. No one was saying that, the thread was discussing how killer has become unfun to play, and you erroneously tried to simplify the matter in terms of "getting good" like most survivors typically do when they don't want to acknowledge their advantages. I challenged you on that and you clearly don't have a leg to stand on save for moving the goal posts. But I'll humor you. "No gens getting done" isn't likely in an SWF group because they would designate someone to be the rescuer while keeping everyone else on the objective. Even in random groups with the frequency of bond, it's not hard to see who's closest to getting the save so can you can stick to what you're doing.
LOL ez report
smh
1 -
How terrifying.
Anyways, because I'm feeling cheeky now.
Getting hardcore gen rushed?
LOL PRESSURE THE MAP
Broken loops?
LOL PRESSURE THE MAP
DS, insta heals, purple flashlights?
LOL PRESSURE THE MAP
Map too large and generators too far spread out to apply consistent pressure?
LOL PRESSURE THE MAP
"Pressure the map" three magical words you can say which have become near vacuous and devoid of meaning to use against those pesky, cry baby killers that just need to get good. Try it sometime!
8 -
"Pressure the map" is the new "Just break the pallet".
5 -
@Blueberry said:
@Wolf74 said:
Again: "Gen Rush"
There are 4 survivor, but only 1 killer.
The killer can always only chase 1 survivor and keep him of the gens.
Switching targets is not beneficial to the killer, because the other one will heal up asap and the chase until the 1st victim is on the hook only gets longer.
And good survivor spread out anyway and try to stay away from each other.
So with an average hit taking 30-40 seconds against a decent survivor (especially at the start of a match with all pallets still available) [good runner can make it even longer than that], plus the time to carry someone to the hook, we have 70-90 seconds for the 1st hook (not including DS, insta heals, etc.), while a gen is done in 80 seconds by a single survivor working on it (not included great checks and toolboxes).
So 3 gens can pop the moment the killer got his first hook.
Survivor have basically 6 objectives -5 gens and 1 gate- and have done half of them already.
Killer need at least 6 hooks (without camping) to kill 2 survivor, which is considered a "balanced" result.
If the killer wants to "win" and get more than 2 kills, he needs 9-11 hooks.
(Not talking about chases, because not every successful chase results in a hook.)
So the killer has achieved 1/6 of his objectives or 1/10 of his objectives, depending on what you aim for (2 kills are enough or more to "win").
So we have 50% of the survivors objectives completed versus 10% of the killers objectives in the same amount of time.But still there is this strange myth that this missmatch is a result of the killers "incompetence" to hunt or control the gens.
+1
The people not understanding this are the ones that don't play both sides at rank 1 with enough hours.Such bullshit
1 -
@only1biggs said:
@Blueberry said:
@Wolf74 said:
Again: "Gen Rush"
There are 4 survivor, but only 1 killer.
The killer can always only chase 1 survivor and keep him of the gens.
Switching targets is not beneficial to the killer, because the other one will heal up asap and the chase until the 1st victim is on the hook only gets longer.
And good survivor spread out anyway and try to stay away from each other.
So with an average hit taking 30-40 seconds against a decent survivor (especially at the start of a match with all pallets still available) [good runner can make it even longer than that], plus the time to carry someone to the hook, we have 70-90 seconds for the 1st hook (not including DS, insta heals, etc.), while a gen is done in 80 seconds by a single survivor working on it (not included great checks and toolboxes).
So 3 gens can pop the moment the killer got his first hook.
Survivor have basically 6 objectives -5 gens and 1 gate- and have done half of them already.
Killer need at least 6 hooks (without camping) to kill 2 survivor, which is considered a "balanced" result.
If the killer wants to "win" and get more than 2 kills, he needs 9-11 hooks.
(Not talking about chases, because not every successful chase results in a hook.)
So the killer has achieved 1/6 of his objectives or 1/10 of his objectives, depending on what you aim for (2 kills are enough or more to "win").
So we have 50% of the survivors objectives completed versus 10% of the killers objectives in the same amount of time.But still there is this strange myth that this missmatch is a result of the killers "incompetence" to hunt or control the gens.
+1
The people not understanding this are the ones that don't play both sides at rank 1 with enough hours.Such bullshit
It's only bullshit to "ones that don't play both sides at rank 1 with enough hours"
2 -
@Blueberry said:
@only1biggs said:
@Blueberry said:
@Wolf74 said:
Again: "Gen Rush"
There are 4 survivor, but only 1 killer.
The killer can always only chase 1 survivor and keep him of the gens.
Switching targets is not beneficial to the killer, because the other one will heal up asap and the chase until the 1st victim is on the hook only gets longer.
And good survivor spread out anyway and try to stay away from each other.
So with an average hit taking 30-40 seconds against a decent survivor (especially at the start of a match with all pallets still available) [good runner can make it even longer than that], plus the time to carry someone to the hook, we have 70-90 seconds for the 1st hook (not including DS, insta heals, etc.), while a gen is done in 80 seconds by a single survivor working on it (not included great checks and toolboxes).
So 3 gens can pop the moment the killer got his first hook.
Survivor have basically 6 objectives -5 gens and 1 gate- and have done half of them already.
Killer need at least 6 hooks (without camping) to kill 2 survivor, which is considered a "balanced" result.
If the killer wants to "win" and get more than 2 kills, he needs 9-11 hooks.
(Not talking about chases, because not every successful chase results in a hook.)
So the killer has achieved 1/6 of his objectives or 1/10 of his objectives, depending on what you aim for (2 kills are enough or more to "win").
So we have 50% of the survivors objectives completed versus 10% of the killers objectives in the same amount of time.But still there is this strange myth that this missmatch is a result of the killers "incompetence" to hunt or control the gens.
+1
The people not understanding this are the ones that don't play both sides at rank 1 with enough hours.Such bullshit
It's only bullshit to "ones that don't play both sides at rank 1 with enough hours"
It's NOT bullshit to killers that are bad at the game.
I have over 4k hours across all platforms, rank 1 on both sides, not that it matters.
2 -
@only1biggs said:
@Blueberry said:
@only1biggs said:
@Blueberry said:
@Wolf74 said:
Again: "Gen Rush"
There are 4 survivor, but only 1 killer.
The killer can always only chase 1 survivor and keep him of the gens.
Switching targets is not beneficial to the killer, because the other one will heal up asap and the chase until the 1st victim is on the hook only gets longer.
And good survivor spread out anyway and try to stay away from each other.
So with an average hit taking 30-40 seconds against a decent survivor (especially at the start of a match with all pallets still available) [good runner can make it even longer than that], plus the time to carry someone to the hook, we have 70-90 seconds for the 1st hook (not including DS, insta heals, etc.), while a gen is done in 80 seconds by a single survivor working on it (not included great checks and toolboxes).
So 3 gens can pop the moment the killer got his first hook.
Survivor have basically 6 objectives -5 gens and 1 gate- and have done half of them already.
Killer need at least 6 hooks (without camping) to kill 2 survivor, which is considered a "balanced" result.
If the killer wants to "win" and get more than 2 kills, he needs 9-11 hooks.
(Not talking about chases, because not every successful chase results in a hook.)
So the killer has achieved 1/6 of his objectives or 1/10 of his objectives, depending on what you aim for (2 kills are enough or more to "win").
So we have 50% of the survivors objectives completed versus 10% of the killers objectives in the same amount of time.But still there is this strange myth that this missmatch is a result of the killers "incompetence" to hunt or control the gens.
+1
The people not understanding this are the ones that don't play both sides at rank 1 with enough hours.Such bullshit
It's only bullshit to "ones that don't play both sides at rank 1 with enough hours"
It's NOT bullshit to killers that are bad at the game.
I have over 4k hours across all platforms, rank 1 on both sides, not that it matters.
I highly doubt that. Links please
1 -
@Blueberry said:
@only1biggs said:
@Blueberry said:
@only1biggs said:
@Blueberry said:
@Wolf74 said:
Again: "Gen Rush"
There are 4 survivor, but only 1 killer.
The killer can always only chase 1 survivor and keep him of the gens.
Switching targets is not beneficial to the killer, because the other one will heal up asap and the chase until the 1st victim is on the hook only gets longer.
And good survivor spread out anyway and try to stay away from each other.
So with an average hit taking 30-40 seconds against a decent survivor (especially at the start of a match with all pallets still available) [good runner can make it even longer than that], plus the time to carry someone to the hook, we have 70-90 seconds for the 1st hook (not including DS, insta heals, etc.), while a gen is done in 80 seconds by a single survivor working on it (not included great checks and toolboxes).
So 3 gens can pop the moment the killer got his first hook.
Survivor have basically 6 objectives -5 gens and 1 gate- and have done half of them already.
Killer need at least 6 hooks (without camping) to kill 2 survivor, which is considered a "balanced" result.
If the killer wants to "win" and get more than 2 kills, he needs 9-11 hooks.
(Not talking about chases, because not every successful chase results in a hook.)
So the killer has achieved 1/6 of his objectives or 1/10 of his objectives, depending on what you aim for (2 kills are enough or more to "win").
So we have 50% of the survivors objectives completed versus 10% of the killers objectives in the same amount of time.But still there is this strange myth that this missmatch is a result of the killers "incompetence" to hunt or control the gens.
+1
The people not understanding this are the ones that don't play both sides at rank 1 with enough hours.Such bullshit
It's only bullshit to "ones that don't play both sides at rank 1 with enough hours"
It's NOT bullshit to killers that are bad at the game.
I have over 4k hours across all platforms, rank 1 on both sides, not that it matters.
I highly doubt that. Links please
LOL
How about this...you provide video of you being stomped every game as killer at rank 1 and having easy games as survivor at rank 1, like you suggest, and I'll link to whatever you like.
3 -
@only1biggs said:
@Blueberry said:
@only1biggs said:
@Blueberry said:
@only1biggs said:
@Blueberry said:
@Wolf74 said:
Again: "Gen Rush"
There are 4 survivor, but only 1 killer.
The killer can always only chase 1 survivor and keep him of the gens.
Switching targets is not beneficial to the killer, because the other one will heal up asap and the chase until the 1st victim is on the hook only gets longer.
And good survivor spread out anyway and try to stay away from each other.
So with an average hit taking 30-40 seconds against a decent survivor (especially at the start of a match with all pallets still available) [good runner can make it even longer than that], plus the time to carry someone to the hook, we have 70-90 seconds for the 1st hook (not including DS, insta heals, etc.), while a gen is done in 80 seconds by a single survivor working on it (not included great checks and toolboxes).
So 3 gens can pop the moment the killer got his first hook.
Survivor have basically 6 objectives -5 gens and 1 gate- and have done half of them already.
Killer need at least 6 hooks (without camping) to kill 2 survivor, which is considered a "balanced" result.
If the killer wants to "win" and get more than 2 kills, he needs 9-11 hooks.
(Not talking about chases, because not every successful chase results in a hook.)
So the killer has achieved 1/6 of his objectives or 1/10 of his objectives, depending on what you aim for (2 kills are enough or more to "win").
So we have 50% of the survivors objectives completed versus 10% of the killers objectives in the same amount of time.But still there is this strange myth that this missmatch is a result of the killers "incompetence" to hunt or control the gens.
+1
The people not understanding this are the ones that don't play both sides at rank 1 with enough hours.Such bullshit
It's only bullshit to "ones that don't play both sides at rank 1 with enough hours"
It's NOT bullshit to killers that are bad at the game.
I have over 4k hours across all platforms, rank 1 on both sides, not that it matters.
I highly doubt that. Links please
LOL
How about this...you provide video of you being stomped every game as killer at rank 1 and having easy games as survivor at rank 1, like you suggest, and I'll link to whatever you like.
Like I thought, lots of talk with nothing to back it up. Further proving this threads point.
2 -
@Blueberry said:
@only1biggs said:
@Blueberry said:
@only1biggs said:
@Blueberry said:
@only1biggs said:
@Blueberry said:
@Wolf74 said:
Again: "Gen Rush"
There are 4 survivor, but only 1 killer.
The killer can always only chase 1 survivor and keep him of the gens.
Switching targets is not beneficial to the killer, because the other one will heal up asap and the chase until the 1st victim is on the hook only gets longer.
And good survivor spread out anyway and try to stay away from each other.
So with an average hit taking 30-40 seconds against a decent survivor (especially at the start of a match with all pallets still available) [good runner can make it even longer than that], plus the time to carry someone to the hook, we have 70-90 seconds for the 1st hook (not including DS, insta heals, etc.), while a gen is done in 80 seconds by a single survivor working on it (not included great checks and toolboxes).
So 3 gens can pop the moment the killer got his first hook.
Survivor have basically 6 objectives -5 gens and 1 gate- and have done half of them already.
Killer need at least 6 hooks (without camping) to kill 2 survivor, which is considered a "balanced" result.
If the killer wants to "win" and get more than 2 kills, he needs 9-11 hooks.
(Not talking about chases, because not every successful chase results in a hook.)
So the killer has achieved 1/6 of his objectives or 1/10 of his objectives, depending on what you aim for (2 kills are enough or more to "win").
So we have 50% of the survivors objectives completed versus 10% of the killers objectives in the same amount of time.But still there is this strange myth that this missmatch is a result of the killers "incompetence" to hunt or control the gens.
+1
The people not understanding this are the ones that don't play both sides at rank 1 with enough hours.Such bullshit
It's only bullshit to "ones that don't play both sides at rank 1 with enough hours"
It's NOT bullshit to killers that are bad at the game.
I have over 4k hours across all platforms, rank 1 on both sides, not that it matters.
I highly doubt that. Links please
LOL
How about this...you provide video of you being stomped every game as killer at rank 1 and having easy games as survivor at rank 1, like you suggest, and I'll link to whatever you like.
Like I thought, lots of talk with nothing to back it up. Further proving this threads point.
Like I thought, lots of talk with nothing to back it up. Further proving my point that only bad killers have anything to complain about these days.
2 -
@only1biggs said:
@Blueberry said:
@only1biggs said:
@Blueberry said:
@only1biggs said:
@Blueberry said:
@only1biggs said:
@Blueberry said:
@Wolf74 said:
Again: "Gen Rush"
There are 4 survivor, but only 1 killer.
The killer can always only chase 1 survivor and keep him of the gens.
Switching targets is not beneficial to the killer, because the other one will heal up asap and the chase until the 1st victim is on the hook only gets longer.
And good survivor spread out anyway and try to stay away from each other.
So with an average hit taking 30-40 seconds against a decent survivor (especially at the start of a match with all pallets still available) [good runner can make it even longer than that], plus the time to carry someone to the hook, we have 70-90 seconds for the 1st hook (not including DS, insta heals, etc.), while a gen is done in 80 seconds by a single survivor working on it (not included great checks and toolboxes).
So 3 gens can pop the moment the killer got his first hook.
Survivor have basically 6 objectives -5 gens and 1 gate- and have done half of them already.
Killer need at least 6 hooks (without camping) to kill 2 survivor, which is considered a "balanced" result.
If the killer wants to "win" and get more than 2 kills, he needs 9-11 hooks.
(Not talking about chases, because not every successful chase results in a hook.)
So the killer has achieved 1/6 of his objectives or 1/10 of his objectives, depending on what you aim for (2 kills are enough or more to "win").
So we have 50% of the survivors objectives completed versus 10% of the killers objectives in the same amount of time.But still there is this strange myth that this missmatch is a result of the killers "incompetence" to hunt or control the gens.
+1
The people not understanding this are the ones that don't play both sides at rank 1 with enough hours.Such bullshit
It's only bullshit to "ones that don't play both sides at rank 1 with enough hours"
It's NOT bullshit to killers that are bad at the game.
I have over 4k hours across all platforms, rank 1 on both sides, not that it matters.
I highly doubt that. Links please
LOL
How about this...you provide video of you being stomped every game as killer at rank 1 and having easy games as survivor at rank 1, like you suggest, and I'll link to whatever you like.
Like I thought, lots of talk with nothing to back it up. Further proving this threads point.
Like I thought, lots of talk with nothing to back it up. Further proving my point that only bad killers have anything to complain about these days.
lol okay rank 20 man
1 -
@Blueberry said:
@only1biggs said:
@Blueberry said:
@only1biggs said:
@Blueberry said:
@only1biggs said:
@Blueberry said:
@only1biggs said:
@Blueberry said:
@Wolf74 said:
Again: "Gen Rush"
There are 4 survivor, but only 1 killer.
The killer can always only chase 1 survivor and keep him of the gens.
Switching targets is not beneficial to the killer, because the other one will heal up asap and the chase until the 1st victim is on the hook only gets longer.
And good survivor spread out anyway and try to stay away from each other.
So with an average hit taking 30-40 seconds against a decent survivor (especially at the start of a match with all pallets still available) [good runner can make it even longer than that], plus the time to carry someone to the hook, we have 70-90 seconds for the 1st hook (not including DS, insta heals, etc.), while a gen is done in 80 seconds by a single survivor working on it (not included great checks and toolboxes).
So 3 gens can pop the moment the killer got his first hook.
Survivor have basically 6 objectives -5 gens and 1 gate- and have done half of them already.
Killer need at least 6 hooks (without camping) to kill 2 survivor, which is considered a "balanced" result.
If the killer wants to "win" and get more than 2 kills, he needs 9-11 hooks.
(Not talking about chases, because not every successful chase results in a hook.)
So the killer has achieved 1/6 of his objectives or 1/10 of his objectives, depending on what you aim for (2 kills are enough or more to "win").
So we have 50% of the survivors objectives completed versus 10% of the killers objectives in the same amount of time.But still there is this strange myth that this missmatch is a result of the killers "incompetence" to hunt or control the gens.
+1
The people not understanding this are the ones that don't play both sides at rank 1 with enough hours.Such bullshit
It's only bullshit to "ones that don't play both sides at rank 1 with enough hours"
It's NOT bullshit to killers that are bad at the game.
I have over 4k hours across all platforms, rank 1 on both sides, not that it matters.
I highly doubt that. Links please
LOL
How about this...you provide video of you being stomped every game as killer at rank 1 and having easy games as survivor at rank 1, like you suggest, and I'll link to whatever you like.
Like I thought, lots of talk with nothing to back it up. Further proving this threads point.
Like I thought, lots of talk with nothing to back it up. Further proving my point that only bad killers have anything to complain about these days.
lol okay rank 20 man
lol okay
1 -
@only1biggs said:
@Blueberry said:
@only1biggs said:
@Blueberry said:
@only1biggs said:
@Blueberry said:
@only1biggs said:
@Blueberry said:
@only1biggs said:
@Blueberry said:
@Wolf74 said:
Again: "Gen Rush"
There are 4 survivor, but only 1 killer.
The killer can always only chase 1 survivor and keep him of the gens.
Switching targets is not beneficial to the killer, because the other one will heal up asap and the chase until the 1st victim is on the hook only gets longer.
And good survivor spread out anyway and try to stay away from each other.
So with an average hit taking 30-40 seconds against a decent survivor (especially at the start of a match with all pallets still available) [good runner can make it even longer than that], plus the time to carry someone to the hook, we have 70-90 seconds for the 1st hook (not including DS, insta heals, etc.), while a gen is done in 80 seconds by a single survivor working on it (not included great checks and toolboxes).
So 3 gens can pop the moment the killer got his first hook.
Survivor have basically 6 objectives -5 gens and 1 gate- and have done half of them already.
Killer need at least 6 hooks (without camping) to kill 2 survivor, which is considered a "balanced" result.
If the killer wants to "win" and get more than 2 kills, he needs 9-11 hooks.
(Not talking about chases, because not every successful chase results in a hook.)
So the killer has achieved 1/6 of his objectives or 1/10 of his objectives, depending on what you aim for (2 kills are enough or more to "win").
So we have 50% of the survivors objectives completed versus 10% of the killers objectives in the same amount of time.But still there is this strange myth that this missmatch is a result of the killers "incompetence" to hunt or control the gens.
+1
The people not understanding this are the ones that don't play both sides at rank 1 with enough hours.Such bullshit
It's only bullshit to "ones that don't play both sides at rank 1 with enough hours"
It's NOT bullshit to killers that are bad at the game.
I have over 4k hours across all platforms, rank 1 on both sides, not that it matters.
I highly doubt that. Links please
LOL
How about this...you provide video of you being stomped every game as killer at rank 1 and having easy games as survivor at rank 1, like you suggest, and I'll link to whatever you like.
Like I thought, lots of talk with nothing to back it up. Further proving this threads point.
Like I thought, lots of talk with nothing to back it up. Further proving my point that only bad killers have anything to complain about these days.
lol okay rank 20 man
lol okay
Now let's see those 4k hours, oh right, you were lying.
1 -
I just love how we never get away from the whole survivor main "insult" when a killer main doesn't complain about everything. There are plenty of good killers who do well in this game. Guess what? It's because they practised, learned from their mistakes and tried to do things differently when things didn't go their way. For instance, there are many streamers to choose from, who are doing very well, without complaining about everything. Maybe look some of them up, watch their stream and learn something? Or just continue to complain because that's easier. The fact that there are good killers around is proof that everyone can learn and get better. And if you get completely wrecked by a survivor, then guess what? That person was better than you. No shame in that. Unless you're a godlike gamer, you're not going to win every time. The best player will win. Sure, there are lots of problems and unbalanced things in this game, but it is not unplayable, and the game is currently in the best state it's ever been.
5 -
@DS_Gets_FaceCamped said:
I hated Ruin when I first started playing, since I'd began as Survivor. But as I began to play killer, I became more and more annoyed. Not to mention I have to play hag a bit more to even GET Ruin available. It's ridiculous I have to play a killer I'm not even all that fond of, just to get a perk,Or just level her to 40 and not play her...
4 -
@skvirl said:
Guess what? It's because they practised, learned from their mistakes and tried to do things differently when things didn't go their way.Oh I really LOVE that one. Can I please requote you every time a survivor main cries for changes?
Like "camping" and they refuse to do gens. Because that is no "fun" and it's "unfair" and they still refuse to change their behavior and keep feeding the trolls/camper instead, but keep complaining.3 -
@Blueberry said:
@only1biggs said:
@Blueberry said:
@only1biggs said:
@Blueberry said:
@only1biggs said:
@Blueberry said:
@only1biggs said:
@Blueberry said:
@only1biggs said:
@Blueberry said:
@Wolf74 said:
Again: "Gen Rush"
There are 4 survivor, but only 1 killer.
The killer can always only chase 1 survivor and keep him of the gens.
Switching targets is not beneficial to the killer, because the other one will heal up asap and the chase until the 1st victim is on the hook only gets longer.
And good survivor spread out anyway and try to stay away from each other.
So with an average hit taking 30-40 seconds against a decent survivor (especially at the start of a match with all pallets still available) [good runner can make it even longer than that], plus the time to carry someone to the hook, we have 70-90 seconds for the 1st hook (not including DS, insta heals, etc.), while a gen is done in 80 seconds by a single survivor working on it (not included great checks and toolboxes).
So 3 gens can pop the moment the killer got his first hook.
Survivor have basically 6 objectives -5 gens and 1 gate- and have done half of them already.
Killer need at least 6 hooks (without camping) to kill 2 survivor, which is considered a "balanced" result.
If the killer wants to "win" and get more than 2 kills, he needs 9-11 hooks.
(Not talking about chases, because not every successful chase results in a hook.)
So the killer has achieved 1/6 of his objectives or 1/10 of his objectives, depending on what you aim for (2 kills are enough or more to "win").
So we have 50% of the survivors objectives completed versus 10% of the killers objectives in the same amount of time.But still there is this strange myth that this missmatch is a result of the killers "incompetence" to hunt or control the gens.
+1
The people not understanding this are the ones that don't play both sides at rank 1 with enough hours.Such bullshit
It's only bullshit to "ones that don't play both sides at rank 1 with enough hours"
It's NOT bullshit to killers that are bad at the game.
I have over 4k hours across all platforms, rank 1 on both sides, not that it matters.
I highly doubt that. Links please
LOL
How about this...you provide video of you being stomped every game as killer at rank 1 and having easy games as survivor at rank 1, like you suggest, and I'll link to whatever you like.
Like I thought, lots of talk with nothing to back it up. Further proving this threads point.
Like I thought, lots of talk with nothing to back it up. Further proving my point that only bad killers have anything to complain about these days.
lol okay rank 20 man
lol okay
Now let's see those 4k hours, oh right, you were lying.
No, I just don't have to prove anything to you.
3 -
@only1biggs said:
@Blueberry said:
@only1biggs said:
@Blueberry said:
@only1biggs said:
@Blueberry said:
@only1biggs said:
@Blueberry said:
@only1biggs said:
@Blueberry said:
@only1biggs said:
@Blueberry said:
@Wolf74 said:
Again: "Gen Rush"
There are 4 survivor, but only 1 killer.
The killer can always only chase 1 survivor and keep him of the gens.
Switching targets is not beneficial to the killer, because the other one will heal up asap and the chase until the 1st victim is on the hook only gets longer.
And good survivor spread out anyway and try to stay away from each other.
So with an average hit taking 30-40 seconds against a decent survivor (especially at the start of a match with all pallets still available) [good runner can make it even longer than that], plus the time to carry someone to the hook, we have 70-90 seconds for the 1st hook (not including DS, insta heals, etc.), while a gen is done in 80 seconds by a single survivor working on it (not included great checks and toolboxes).
So 3 gens can pop the moment the killer got his first hook.
Survivor have basically 6 objectives -5 gens and 1 gate- and have done half of them already.
Killer need at least 6 hooks (without camping) to kill 2 survivor, which is considered a "balanced" result.
If the killer wants to "win" and get more than 2 kills, he needs 9-11 hooks.
(Not talking about chases, because not every successful chase results in a hook.)
So the killer has achieved 1/6 of his objectives or 1/10 of his objectives, depending on what you aim for (2 kills are enough or more to "win").
So we have 50% of the survivors objectives completed versus 10% of the killers objectives in the same amount of time.But still there is this strange myth that this missmatch is a result of the killers "incompetence" to hunt or control the gens.
+1
The people not understanding this are the ones that don't play both sides at rank 1 with enough hours.Such bullshit
It's only bullshit to "ones that don't play both sides at rank 1 with enough hours"
It's NOT bullshit to killers that are bad at the game.
I have over 4k hours across all platforms, rank 1 on both sides, not that it matters.
I highly doubt that. Links please
LOL
How about this...you provide video of you being stomped every game as killer at rank 1 and having easy games as survivor at rank 1, like you suggest, and I'll link to whatever you like.
Like I thought, lots of talk with nothing to back it up. Further proving this threads point.
Like I thought, lots of talk with nothing to back it up. Further proving my point that only bad killers have anything to complain about these days.
lol okay rank 20 man
lol okay
Now let's see those 4k hours, oh right, you were lying.
No, I just don't have to prove anything to you.
Never said you did, just let you know that it's clear you were lying which is why you don't understand this thread.
1 -
@Wolf74 said:
@skvirl said:
Guess what? It's because they practised, learned from their mistakes and tried to do things differently when things didn't go their way.Oh I really LOVE that one. Can I please requote you every time a survivor main cries for changes?
Like "camping" and they refuse to do gens. Because that is no "fun" and it's "unfair" and they still refuse to change their behavior and keep feeding the trolls/camper instead, but keep complaining.Of course you can requote it. I love how you're looking for a "fight" XD But unlike you, I'm not biased. This goes for both sides. If people playing survivor complains about silly stuff, then what I said is completely relevant for them as well. There's a lot of bad survivors, and they too need to practise and learn from their mistakes.
I do understand why people complain about camping though. I don't really care about it myself, it's up to the killer.. If he wants to stare at my face while I'm on the hook, sure, go ahead. I'm just going to move on and hope I'll have more fun in the next game. Luckily when I play survivor I only encounter campers in the lower ranks by more inexperienced killers right after rank reset. Even if I don't really care much about it, I don't think being facecamped is a fun and riveting gaming experience, and I can't imagine it being very much fun for the killer either just standing there. And the rest of the team won't have a very fun game either, since they just have to sit on a gen for a few minutes and then run out. I don't know about you, but I usually play games to have fun. If you think facecamping is fun, then great, and good for you.
3
