Why are players like this not banned
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Sitting here in this thread is making me understand many things about this community. Nearly nobody was sympathetic with the guy who was insulted. The responses are: it's normal, deal with it, close the chat if you are so sensible. Do you hear yourselves? Are you so sure there is nothing wrong about your statements?
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Wrong. In any serious sport match if the referee notices insults from one player to another they get a punishment. So no wrong example.
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It's a videogame not a MMA fight. Do you understand the difference? There is no title to win, trash talk in a videogame is just free toxicity. I can handle it. But some people don't, and it's not fair for more sensible people to have their game ruined just because of some toxic player.
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Ok. I give up. You can keep your precious toxicity in game. Don't eat it all at once.
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Totallly wrong watch a hockey game they will discipline for racial stuff but theres plenty of trash talk way worse than what is in that chat that they let slide, because when you play in a competitive enviroment emotions get heated.
Now the issue with regards to the OP, if you cant handle the trash talk, dont engage with the trash talk. They stepped into the ring instead of just ignoring it, and started chirping back, which just elicits more response. Nothing said crossed a line, is it bad sportsmanship, sure but lots of things are on both sides, that arent punishable, so you just gotta move on.
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You can guess the difference between a real life fight match and a non competitive videogame. I shouldn't explain it. However I don't like insults even in those situations. They are professionals. You don't have to insult your opponent. It's just a show off. I work all the day with arrongant people in my profession but I can handle myself not insulting all of them.
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That's sympathy.
People have given advice to try not getting so worked-up over something they consider insignificant.
The simple fact people have replied instead of simply ignoring the thread is already a display of empathy.
Don't you understand that?
What are you trying to do asking if trying to help is wrong? Make people feel guilty by using a victim card argument of some sort? That would not be very nice.
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Ok so let's just insult each other all day everywhere because the world in tough. You know the real reason why this happens? Because they are behind a monitor. I really want to see those scrubs insulting anyone of us staning in front of us. Spineless toxic people.
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I'm not even taking about myself. I'm not a victim here. I'm just saying people should be more helpful and saying he is RIGHT about the excessive amount of toxicity he got. But he just got nearly ignored because the response he got was: you are too weak, ignore them. Ignoring a problem is never a solution.
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Vicariously. Either you should also follow the suggestions made to OP, either you genuinely don't understand what helping looks like, either you are just trying to get attention.
Either way this is pointless and the same fix applies to all three possibilities.
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Yes please give me attention. /s
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The two fora have different standards. Yes, it can be a touch silly that you can say anything short of hatespeech ingame and be safe, but get actioned on the forums for using the word 'jerk' - but it is what it is.
It's not the 'slight digs' that are the problem.
'Get over it'...ugh. See, this - right here - is the attitude that annoys me. Because you're shifting the blame from the person going out of their way to try and make someone else feel unhappy, and instead blaming the person for reacting like a human being and not being numb.
People are supposed to feel bad when someone says something like that. Of course, there is such a thing as being oversensitive, but having no reaction whatsoever when someone is a butt after a fair, hard fought game - I'm not sure if that's healthy.
I...don't know if 'please sir may I have another' is a healthy response either.
The intent is the exact same.
You're using the protection of your monitor to lob nastiness at other players in the hopes that you can upset them, and make them enjoy the game less.
This almost always comes from a position of hate - and why certain forms of hate are tolerated and some forms aren't...that's a bigger discussion.
What you are describing isn't toughness.
Being 'tough' isn't being inhuman. Tough people aren't unfeeling, they can just push through.
Two things though.
- What you are describing is being numb, to the point of masochism.
- Why are you focused on the person being insulted 'toughening up', rather than focusing on the person doing the insulting?
If you're feeling guilty, it's generally because you know you've done something wrong.
Saying 'you're at fault for making me feel guilty for doing bad things' is something I'll never be able to get behind.
I...think you've misunderstood something important here:
- Trash talking between opponents who know each other generally stems from a rivalry, and a rivalry inevitably involves mutual respect.
- It's almost always played up to the Nth degree for publicity's sake too - very seldom is it genuine.
- There is a massive difference between banter within a rivalry, and being nasty to a stranger. Esports organizations absolutely have suspended or penalized players for their behavior on Ladder - because they understand this difference.
- Other Esports organizations also do suspend or penalize players for trash talk in or after a match. Nina, for example, got tournament banned for trash talking PartinG - and this was widely criticized for being too lenient. Again, because there is a difference between some banter and being obnoxious - and people can usually spot the difference.
- The difference being - one is designed to 'play up' a certain kind of relationship, generally for the sake of publicity and drama, and the other to upset or disrespect an opponent.
- Trash talk after a game, especially involving strangers can only be the latter.
Human beings don't stop being human beings just because they are behind a monitor, or an avatar.
Post edited by StarLost on3 -
I promise you, the intent is not to harm.*
Yes, there are people who say "gg ez" with malicious intent, because the act of putting someone else down is self-soothing.
But there are also people who say "gg ez" because the game left much to be desired. Like a person going back for second helpings, the act of taunting and jeering often elicits a stimulating response that satisfies those who felt the game was unsatisfactory.
For the latter group, offending people is collateral damage, not the objective itself. There is an acknowledgement that certain words and phrases (such as 'gg ez') are inherently harmless, but are capable of triggering reactions. The intent is to provoke like-minded individuals who get a kick out of this sort of banter, and have the conversation escalate from there. People who engage in this sort of behavior assume that those who can't tolerate it will ignore them or remove themself from the situation.
In this particular example, OP should immediately recognize that his opponents are not interested in engaging in meaningful conversation. Instead, OP chooses to entertain his opponents, in-turn signaling to them that their behavior is tolerable/welcomed.
If I was one of the survivors in this situation, and OP said "hey, no need to pour salt on the wound," my immediate response would be something to the effect of "you're right, i'm sorry. have a good day, gl next," or even extend the olive branch and try to learn a bit about them. Because, as I've tried to convey thus far, I'm not looking to put people down, I'm just looking to engage with other people that find this sort of behavior entertaining.
Whether or not the intent is to harm, I concede that the behavior is entirely self-serving.
*I don’t know the survivor in question’s intentions, so I’m speaking generically here to the point I was originally making.
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Yeah, it is. And you're agreeing with me here - just without realizing it. Because the 'stimulation' you seem to require to enjoy yourself comes from making other people even more frustrated and miserable after a tough game.
On the other hand, saying something like 'well tried' or 'that game was cursed' is likely to at least leave them feeling a little better about themselves - and believe it or not, will actually leave you feeling better too. Because you're showing respect, not just for their effort, but for the game as a whole.
That is the objective - sorry, I don't believe you when you say 'I'm just seeking out people who enjoy being nasty...to be my friends...by being nasty to them...' yeah, no. That's not how people work. If you were after like minded people, there are plenty of other avenues to find them. Not to mention the whole mea-culpa 'no, if someone demeans themselves sufficiently I'll extend an olive branch'...ugh. No. That definitely rubs me up the wrong way, it's textbook bully.
If you are telling the truth, there's an interesting little legal concept called 'due diligence' or, in some quarters, 'foreseeable harms'. Basically, even if you do not intend to inflict harm, if your actions are - as per the judgement of a hypothetical reasonable person - likely to cause harm, then you are responsible for that harm. Obviously, 'harm' is a tricky word here as we're talking about an online interaction, but that's generally the language used, and it's applicable here in a moral sense, if not a legal one.
Basically, you're either being a sadist, or you're being willfully negligent with much the same outcome.
Either way - not healthy for anyone involved.
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Somehow I expected you to be better at reading than that.
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Did you really say telling people to kill themselves is the same as "gg ez" 😂💀
This forum is hilarious.
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Uh no, it's both people's fault but op stayed there and argued with the person instead of moving on which would have taken 0.5 seconds to click the leave button.
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No...no I did not. And the fact that you're saying that...why strawman?
I'm saying that being nasty isn't a good thing, and when you're nasty the fault lies on you to fix yourself, not on people to ignore you. Because that's not how human beings work as a species.
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My comment started with "death threats are not the same as gg ez" and you opened with "the intent is the same". You're implying they're similar in meaning.
Anyway I'm not having this conversation with a bunch of people that get upset over things I've heard said at a children's football game.
"GG ez"
"Noob"
"My 4 year old sister plays better than you"
😂🤭
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I...are you sure you know what 'intent' means?
I'm honestly not sure.
I'm saying that both of these things are intended to make someone more frustrated and unhappy after a bad game - someone is trying to extract enjoyment from making someone else miserable.
Also - what the hell football games are you watching? Because, even at the college level, you'd probably get a fine or a suspension for being unsportsmanlike. I remember one of our local players got benched for several games because he refused to shake hands after the match.
Kids sports - I've seen players and even parents ejected for far less.
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Yea telling someone to kill themselves is disgusting and supposed to actually harm people, saying gg ez is nothing like it means nothing.
You genuinely don't think players in scrums are trash talking each other on the field? 💀😂
Dbd isn't a professional setting, and that's something you're clearly missing.
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On the field? Yeah, sometimes. But there's a world of difference between banter mid game between two opponents who both know each other and likely respect each other (and who, if things go too far, can easily file a complaint or get their teammates to intervene) and someone lobbing turdballs at someone else behind the safety of their monitor.
It's a false analogy I'm getting very tired of.
It's not a professional setting - sure. But it is still a community playing a competitive game. Making that community...not only more wholesome, but more welcoming to newer players is probably going to make the difference in the long run between this game plateauing and declining, or continuing to be popular. Because, as older players burn out, you need to bring new blood in.
As I said earlier, look at World of Warcraft and how it's just getting...pantsed by Final Fantasy these days - with one of the primary reasons being that the WoW community is almost as poisonous as the DbD community, and FF is really friendly and pretty damn wholesome, community wise.
This resulted in Blizzard going way too far in the other direction, and moving towards a ridiculously over-moderated approach to the community.
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I was never disagreeing with you, so much as trying to make you aware that the behavior is far more nuanced than you appear to believe.
I’m also not here to offer a critique or to pass judgement on the behavior, beyond the scope of “is it bannable?”
Whether or not it is ‘healthy’ is a question to be answered by someone with more professional experience than I.
I thought I’ve made myself pretty clear thus far, so I’m a bit thrown by your choice to mention legal terms. “gg ez” is hardly negligent. Where are you going with that?
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You're actually arguing my case here - and I mentioned exactly this earlier.
It's not the people getting annoyed who are to blame if BHVR cracks down, Blizzard/Riot style. It's the people who are acting like howler monkeys in post-game. If they kept trash talking to a more meme-y, less obnoxious style, there would be no risk of a crackdown. And, looking at the recent player surveys - it could well go in that direction.
When someone's fun comes purely from making other people miserable, yeah - that's exactly where moderation is needed. It's why stuff like walling people in is bannable.
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It's honestly very impressive how many words it can take someone to say "I enjoy being a bully" without actually saying the words "I enjoy being a bully." Well done!
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The only bully I see in this conversation is you.
StarLost and I have kept it quite civil, then you showed up to make fun of me for… what?
Offering an unpopular opinion?
Tell me you don’t see the irony.
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Calling out a bully isn't being a bully.
You've made it quite clear that you enjoy provoking negative reactions in others, under the guise of "finding like-minded people." If you are as reasonable as you claim yourself to be, you should easily be able to see how your behavior is harmful.
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Your comment was dripping with sarcasm.
Whether it was to win the approval of your peers by taking a witty jab at me, or simply out of enjoyment for that small act of malice, you find yourself guilty of a behavior you’re so desperate to label me under.
Call me what you want. Since articulating my thoughts I’ve been met with nothing short of ignorance and name-calling.
I can speak only to my personal experiences on this matter, and your choice not to believe me does not make what I say any less true.
You should learn not to throw stones from glass houses.
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It was to take a jab at you, because you are deserving of it.
Random players in a video game, unless they have done something particularly egregious, are not deserving of it. Therein lies the difference between us.
Perhaps the reason you are being met with name-calling is because your admitted behavior warrants it. You claim we are ignorant, as though we are incapable of understanding the subtleties or, as you put it, "nuance" of your behavior. We can see through this veil of pseudo-intellectualism. (Insert "Skinner out of touch" meme here.)
All you've said can be reduced to a single statement: you say mean things to strangers after playing a video game with them, in the hopes that they enjoy saying mean things as well and you can befriend them and say mean things to each other. The second half of this sentence is fine (I do not begrudge anyone mutual entertainment like this) but you're using it as the justification for the first half of this sentence, which is where the problem lies.
Some people enjoy roughhousing as a form of mutual entertainment, but tackling a stranger after playing a game of chess with them in the hopes you'll both enjoy it would rightfully be classified as aberrant social behavior. This is analogous (but of a different severity) to what you've admitted to doing.
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I never said I agreed with OP on that point.
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I did.
I didn't say that being one should be cause for an in-game ban.
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If I can speak candidly for a moment, I think your insistence on labeling (i.e. bully, pseudo-intellectualism) inhibits you from reaching a comprehensive understanding of foreign ideas.
You say that I am deserving of this maltreatment, but it is apparent that you still do not grasp the concepts which I’ve discussed henceforth.
Some people enjoy roughhousing as a form of mutual entertainment, but tackling a stranger after playing a game of chess with them […] would rightfully be classified as aberrant social behavior.
I agree!
But this is not analogous to what I’ve admitted, which is why I’ve asserted that I’ve been met with ignorance.
Tackling someone is physical assault.
Lets run with your scenario, so that I can better explain myself…
Picture this:
After the chess match, the winner says something snoody to the effect of “I really thought you were going to be a challenge.”
The loser smirks and replies, “please, I heard you could use the confidence boost!”
The winner laughs at the witty reply and leans in for a soft jab on the loser’s shoulder. “As if!”
The loser, having grown up with two rough and tumble older brothers sees the jab as a sign of affection and meets it with a hip check and a grin.
To a third party, the interaction appears rather aggressive, but both parties walk away appreciating the others’ sense of humor—likely to remember the interaction for a long time.
This is the exact same scenario I’ve been defending in gaming. There is an escalation process—it really is nuanced—and it requires both parties to make judgement calls about the other’s character.
Just as people who are sensitive to such comments need to take accountability when they refuse to remove themself from a situation, people with a brash sense of humor need to acknowledge when they’ve overstepped a boundary.
If you don’t enjoy engaging in this sort of banter, that is fine. But it is not your place to cast judgement on those who do.
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I'm not judging you for enjoying engaging in banter.
I'm saying that when your opening remark to someone after beating them in a game is insulting outside of an understood social context where both parties enjoy such banter then it's going to be perceived as bullying, especially in a situation where body language is entirely absent. You are willing to effectively insult a random person in the hopes that they enjoy banter like that, without any regard for how this might make them feel.
And you don't see why this might make you disliked by your fellow forum members.
What happens in most cases when someone is being flamed in end-game chat and the person voices displeasure with the interaction? How often do you think that the antagonists are going to say "oh, sorry, I thought you might enjoy some banter, clearly I misjudged and overstepped." Do you really think this happens in even 1% of cases? No, the antagonists will take this to be a sign of weakness and double down, or they'll hit back with the classic "I'm just joking, chill out."
Now let's say that I accept your premise here, that you do not mean to aggravate the person you're talking to. How likely, in DBD end-game chat specifically when engaging with a person who finds this kind of banter from someone they don't even know to be over the line, do you think the they are to ask you politely to stop?
Your supposed de-escalation process doesn't work in this context. It might work in an IRL game where you can read immediately from the other person, before they say a word, that they don't like the banter, and sincerely apologize. Heck, you might even be able to tell from their body language how open they would be to such an interaction and simply not even try if you can tell they are already upset.
It does not work consistently in an online game where this dynamic doesn't exist, which is why you're going to be perceived as a jerk when you try engaging in banter with a person who doesn't like it. They've been around the DBD block and know what happens when they try to appeal to the humanity in the other person.
You can try to put the onus on the other person as much as you want. "Well, they shouldn't have engaged."
Or.... maybe you shouldn't antagonize strangers on the Internet hoping that they like it.
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Someone needs to open the door for that sort of social context to exist--be it online or IRL.
Personally, a comment like "gg ez" is harmless enough to open that door.
People get offended by everything these days.
To me, "gg ez" is far more mild-mannered than some of the things you can do to players in-game.
For example, I think slugging for the 4k is MORE offensive than saying "gg ez." I really value my time, so it is insulting to have it wasted staring at my helpless body, lying on the ground for minutes at a time, because some other player can't fathom the idea of a survivor finding hatch.
At the end of the day, I can't please everyone.
Someone is going to think I'm a !#&% no matter what I do.
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Someone needs to open the door for that sort of social context to exist--be it online or IRL.
Do you think it's appropriate to try to open that door with an insulting comment to someone you've never met before and whose mental state you cannot judge by body language? This seems like the kind of thing you'd do after a few matches with the same player when you've had a chance to try to ascertain their mental state.
The difference between what you're doing in chat and what trolls do in chat is that you hope the other person enjoys it while the troll hopes they don't. This is a distinction without a difference for players who don't enjoy it, and they will (rightly) think you are a jerk after such an interaction. If this doesn't bother you then it sounds like you aren't a very empathetic person -- or, at least, that you value "finding like-minded individuals" more than the others' feelings.
To me, "gg ez" is far more mild-mannered than some of the things you can do to players in-game.
"Worse stuff exists" is a poor justification.
Someone is going to think I'm a !#&% no matter what I do.
There is where we have some common ground. People can find any reason to be offended.
All I'm saying is be mindful of how your words affect others.
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You sound like me when I was 13.
That is not someone that you want to emulate.
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Here's the thing, gg ez is a pretty innocuous taunt. If i feel like trashtalking i will start with something like that, it's a challenge, A "hey you wanna go?" If it goes by the wayside with no response it'll end there but if you respond, thats the equivalent of a "Bring it on lets go dude."
Thats exactly what happened in that chat, challenge issued, challenge accepted, game on. Nothing else that was said crossed the line no personal attacks, no threats, it was a group of people trashtalking about a game and the game alone.
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Blaming the receiver of the message for "not being strong enough" instead of the sender of the message for being a jerk says all I need to know about you.
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Everyone's journey through life is different.
If I was currently the person I was at age 13, I'd be in @TheWheelOfCheese's shoes advocating for the righteous path.
I don't know what life was like for you as a 13 year old Pulsar, but in those developing years I dealt with many people who took advantage of a person's kindness and compassion. I was extremely selfless, and it was constantly thrown back in my face.
I'm a lot happier now than I was then, but I'm also a whole lot more apathetic.
I don't particularly care what others think about me--I don't think others should care very much about what people think of them. It has been my experience that quality of life improves as you worry less about what everyone around you has to say about you.
To quote coach John Wooden, "if you make the effort to do the best of which you're capable, trying to improve the situation that exists for you, i think that's success, and I don't think others can judge that; I think it's like character and reputation--your reputation is what you're perceived to be; your character is what you really are."
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I don't disagree with any of this, but I'd point out that not caring what others think about you is orthogonal to the issue of how you treat others. You can not care what others think of you while also treating them with respect.
Unless your opponent did something egregious during the match, I would strongly suggest letting the loser initiate smack talk. If you won, there's a good chance your opponent is feeling deflated and, as harmless as it may seem to you, "gg ez" could make them frustrated and upset that their opponent is being a jerk to them for no apparent reason. This is where you come across as a bully, a sore winner. If they start into it then sure, have at them.
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I don't disagree with any of this, but I'd point out that not worrying about what others think of you is orthogonal to the issue of how you treat others. You can not care what people think of you, but still treat others with respect.
What I'd suggest to you is to let the loser initiate smack talk in a match of random players. If you won, your opponent is likely feeling deflated and frustrated. As harmless as you may think it is, "gg ez" is likely to make them irritated and upset that some random person feels it necessary to belittle them only because they lost in a video game. This is where you come across as a bully, a sore winner. If the loser is up for smack talk, they will make that known.
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In honor of you, and as gratitude for having this conversation with me, i’ll make an effort to do that going forward.
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Hey, I really do appreciate that.
And I'm sorry if I came across harsh at the start of the conversation. This is an issue I'm passionate about (perhaps somewhat unfortunately, knowing it's an uphill battle) and sometimes that gets the best of me.
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Imagine playing survivor and having 2 other survivors teabag you while they lead the killer to you and the killer never touches them, but tunnels you. Then imagine both of those survivors having TTV at the end of their gamer tags. Then imagine going to their streams on Twitch and realizing they only have around 5 viewers each. I don't want to brag, but that happened to me.
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