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The game is designed such that killers CAN'T "play nice"
If killers play nice and try and 12 hook, not tunnel, never camp, they won't be able to win unless the survivors are potatoes.
If the killer doesn't play nice, tries to 1 and 2 hook, proxy camps at a nice 3 gen place, then they get raged at in the end game, and the survivors generally have a bad time.
This should be fixed. The game should be designed in a such a way that a killer is able to win by going for hooks, and doesn't have to camp and tunnel. Additionally, in such a world, camping and tunneling should either not be possible due to game mechanic changes, or result in the killer automatically losing due to game mechanics going against them in this case. This should all be possible in solo queue as well.
This would result in the game being much more fun for both sides. Tunneling and camping get addressed, so survivors don't feel like they don't get to play the game if they are the unlucky ones. Killers get to have more fun because they aren't sweating it out trying to tunnel out or camp a survivor. You would see more positive interaction between survivors and killers (I.E. the chase, and the mindgames) rather than the toxic ones we often see now.
Comments
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The devs are trying to move Killers into the "nicer" direction.
Problem is, is that they failed completely. They nerfed the few Perks that made Killers leave the Hook while buffing the ones that keep Killers near the Hook
37 -
People that think playing smart and efficiently is toxic will never fail to bewilder me.
What, is an enemy toxic for going for headshots in an FPS because they do it better than you do?
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The game shouldn't be so much about escaping/killing, but about interacting with the game and it's elements, like the entire reason the trials are happening is to elicit emotion, what emotions are be elicited when you get your team of 5 star mechanics, acrobats, and medical professionals to casually repair generators while letting themselves be stabbed every so often, what emotions are you getting when a crackhead with a pimp cane murders 4 people in 3 minutes while screeching "gg ez."
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They are trying I think but they don't know how to do it, if reassurance goes live untouched it's a facecamp nerf and DS should probably be buffed, what else can they do without completely changing the game ?
mandatory perks are bad but it's better than nothing
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Probably my favorite description of blight I have every seen lol.
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I never face camp and I have about a 70% kill rate which is pretty decent I think. 🤷♂️ I don't have a problem with chasing people who are already injured and making hook trades and slugging, though, so if that makes me "not nice" I guess I'm not a nice killer.
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Disagree.
It's possible to win 95% of games by playing nice.
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Its only smart and efficient because the devs balanced it that way. I'd rather have the game reward genpressure over hookpressure. Atleast to a point where it feels equally powerful.
For the FPS comparison, its like they gave headshots a 0.5 multiplier and you only deal half damage for more skill required. Why go for headshots then, when bodyshots deal more damage, thats how dbd rewards skill.
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Mind namin those perks?
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I used to be a Hag main when I was starting out as a full-time killer, and there's actually a valuable lesson in playing a hardcore killer without add-ons or strong perks, that even though you are quite skilled, you are just learning to make use of what the game is throwing at you, and not every sweaty 4k is worth the salt you give for such a lousy endgame screen. I've gone full circle from accepting 6 hooks and 4k with NOED and basement is amazing to 12 hooks and no kills is the nicest thing I've ever done for myself.
The stress wasn't worth it even though it took me 1,100+ hours to stop being a tryhard killer and I used to be addicted to playing DBD at least 5 hours a day.
Now I just play Trapper with Noed and Bloodwarden.
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BBQ & Chili and Old Pain Resonance.
Killers have no incentive to no play nice anymore. Not that BBQ was much of an incentive but it did help. I know it helped me play nicer, I'd try for that last BBQ stack earlier in the match but now I usually have a couple people dead and the game in hand before I tackle the best looper on the team.
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This! You can go out of your way not to camp and tunnel, lose, and you'll get teabagged out the gate. I had a survivor main deadass tell me that I should be satisfied with knowing I "could" have killed them if they end up escaping cause I didn't camp/tunnel
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Why would I spread hooks out if I never win that way, and then I get tbagged? Especially when every single thing, even hooks being spaced too far where I can't get someone on one, is considered my fault?
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You've been hitting it out of the ball park as of late.
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It can be addressed very easy, make camp and tunnel impossible, but rework maps, remove 50% of the pallets, increase gen speed to 2 minutes and you will have fair gameplay
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Hard disagree. The game is one of the most effortless online multiplayer experiences as a killer. The only difficulty that comes into play is against SWF; otherwise, the game is so tilted in your favor it's hilarious. You can get twelve hooks quite often against solo groups.
7 -
I play nice all the time and still get wins, so.. yeah.
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It depends on the survivor skill level, SWF status, map, and which killer is being played.
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I'd like to point out that not tunneling and playing nice are not synonymous. Here's an example. Survivor A gets unhooked and runs off somewhere nearby to heal, you happen to find them. If you were playing nice, you'd ignore them. But if you simply don't want to tunnel, then you slug them.
If you happen upon their would-be healer on your way to patrol gens, downing them and putting them on hook leaves one person to pick up the slug and get the rescue, with one person on gens. Very effective.
Slugging is fine, provided you're not going for the 4-man slug tactic at 5 gens, because it gives the person a chance to stay in the game and continue participating.
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You got a 100 win streak as Legion by not playing nice. Being sweaty wins your matches.
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do you want non-mandatory perks to be base-kit? Like imagine Dead hard, Off the record, Borrow time and DS base-kit for survivor. it makes survivor get 4 free perks and now survivor can put 4 more additional perks on top of base-kit perks to get even more second chances.
i didn't see much value in playing for BBQ stacks because if I just kill someone early, it gives you more time to chase other survivors which naturally builds 4 stack of BBQ. the only time you didn't get 4 stacks of BBQ is when you lost i.e playing nice. if anything BBQ allowed killer to tunnel survivors more effectively because you could chase survivor 1, hook them, chase survivor 2, hook them, then find survivor 1 - survivor 2 and so on.
now BBQ is a lot worse because everyone runs off the record which gives 80 seconds of aura immunity, so BBQ is now much weaker because its harder to use info to tunnel people out of the game with 80 sec aura immunity. playing nice, i.e playing by survivor rulebook is playing to lose as killer.
you can only play nice as killer if you have really good gen defense and have really strong anti-loop power like nurse for fast chases, but gen defense now a days is former shadow of itself. so playing nice is no longer viable. in truth, it wasn't viable ever against good teams but killer still tried to follow survivor rulebook anyway.
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I don't see any problem with being camped and tunneled, since I started playing IdentityV I realized that the problem with DBD is that it doesn't have a definition of how to win and it doesn't even consider survs a team, here when a surv dies it's over for him, and the killer only feels victorious when he kills the 4 survs, in IV the system works differently, the survs are treated as a team and even if you leave the match after it is over you are rewarded with your team, like if the killer kills more out of 2 survs he wins, if more than 2 survs escape everyone wins, there is camper and tunnel and I don't complain about it, in DBD the problem is that if I die I don't win anything, maybe that's why people complain about killers and vice versa, at least I think so
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Because it's an asymmetrical game that was designed in such a way that either side playing "smart and efficiently" makes the game utterly miserable for the other side. It's really not difficult to grasp.
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BBQ and Chili was only changed post trial, it still gives the exact same amount of information.
Pain Res' nerf got reverted, and even then I still think its stupid. Imagine a Survivor perk that when repairing a gen, you healed yourself and revealed the aura of the killer all at the same time.
Its a single perk slot that gives you information and gen regression that activates while simply doing your objective.
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I used to like to get my 4 BBQ stacks before anyone was dead because it happened often enough where a survivor would DC out of spite just to deny a BBQ stack. For me BBQ was an incentive to play fairer than I do now, I wanted those stacks and I was willing to do anything to guarantee I got them. Now I've replaced BBQ with STBFL which incentivizes to ignore one player completely unless they somehow change the obsession. Now I'd only consider running BBQ on Huntress.
I find I play nicer the more gens that are left and I know their not progressed. If there are 4-5 gens left I am more inclined to let that dead on hook survivor be a slug to be picked up by his team while I work on trying to get 8 hooks before I start killing. If 3 gens pop in my first chase though the gloves come off and no dirty strategy is beneath me, survivor rulebook be damned.
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I'm talking about a high level. So i guess that excludes you then?
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tunneling is pretty much the same as survivors gluing themselves to gens.
both sides are trying to get their objective done as effectively as possible to win
why is it scummy if a killer plays efficient and not when survivors do?
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Why are you casting aspersions on THEIR skill level when YOU are the one struggling?
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I am referring to the notification Pain Res used to give off. It used to be a very reliable way to hook someone, find the gen with the most progress and pressure it, which got killers away from the hook. They changed it the wrong way. Instead of what it does now it should give 10% regression at best and a notification.
We are talking about public matches right? Even a soft-capped killer is going to face weak teams more than half the time thanks to the matchmaking prioritizing short queue times instead of proper matchmaking.
Unless you're talking about comp matches in private lobbies there is no "high level."
If you're having trouble in public matches at "high level" so much that you have to play nasty every game, perhaps you're the weak player?
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It's a sin to tell a lie.
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I can get 12 hook games and win consistently by playing nice.
But if i screw up and extend chase for 20-30 seconds that means im probably getting at most 1k that game.
The thing about killer gameplay is that you need constant pressure all the time and you can for sure get that pressure even when you are playing nice.
Its just that if you slip up or if a survivor plays really well, or say if you get screwed by auto hit 1 too many times, you're probably a bit screwed. At that point you either have to switch to playing dirty or just accept that you are probably getting a 1-2k at most and play fair anyway.
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I honestly don't have a problem with camping. It's easy to counter/play around. Though I never do it myself. Tunneling for pressure when you lose gens, sure - understandable.
What I don't understand is why killers are allowed to tunnel someone out of the game at 4-5 gens. It's pretty much a gg at this point and no Off the Record and Decisive strikes are gonna save you from this. It's just makes the game straight up unfair from the start.
It's not even that it's bad for the person that got tunneled out. The 3 people remaining have a long miserable game ahead that they will most likely lose.
Same as survivors can't vault the same window more than 3 times, killers shouldn't be able to hook the same person 3 times in a row unless some fair amount of time has passed from the beginning of the match.
I mostly play killer but after seeing what killers do sometimes makes me feel bad for survivors sometimes.
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Tunneling some one out at 4-5 gens is only possible if survivors allow it.
By that i mean if all 3 survivors get off gens the second some one is hooked. Or if they rush off to unhook some one the second they are hooked even without waiting for the killer to go on their way.
It shouldnt happen vs survivors that are even barely decent at the game. But granted, most players arent even barely decent.
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You can play nice. Don't kill anyone. Easy.
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BBQ, Ruin and PR come to mind.
PGTW also got the Killer away from the Hook, but not as consistently.
Call Of Brine, Eruption and Overcharge are 3-Genning Perks, which means the Killer has no reason to leave the Hook whatsoever once they find a suitable 3-Gen
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Im well aware that it was a very reliable way. Too reliable. Other than sabotaging hooks there was no way to counter it really, Killer got damage on the gen and knew exactly which gen to prioritize
It was (and still is with Surveillance) a jack of all trades
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Right? It's almost like if i play nice (not even nice, I'd say with consideration), and sometime get 3-4ks and sometimes get 0-1ks it pretty much works out to averaging around 2k which is balanced.
My personal opinion is if you are having to camp and tunnel to get that same ratio of kills, you are probably in an MMR that's too high for your actual skill level, rather than your "percieved" skill level.
2 -
Completely untrue. Never camp, never tunnel and don't run gen slowdown perks, which is also on the toxic list by survivors, and you will lose 95% of all matches. This is not even taking maps and killers into consideration. Don't forget, you can't play Nurse, Blight, Spirit, Artist or any other killer considered toxic or broken. Everyone basically has to play Trapper.
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Love your answer bro'
DbD is not a sort of game who you are "nice", one side have to survive, the other one have to chase and kill the first side. Every, every game who is a competitive PVP game isn't nice, it's like this, it's not the end of the word, people have the right to hate each others.
You better talk about behaviors that make one side to act in some manners, as tons of killers already explained why tunneling and camping are good strategy at some given points of a game or another, and sometimes, it's done without even wanting it.
Can we more talk about the behavior of survs ? Why are they t-bagging you all game ? clic clic you ? open the exit gate but waiting you to t-bag you instead of exiting ? Teams of bully ?
If the gates are open, just leave if you are all safe for god sake, why is this manner of an habit to necessary taunt the killer ? I will never get it.
I am someone who act accordingly to others behaviors, if they act like trash with me, i will make them pay. I don't act toxic if the survs i have to face don't use the said behaviors, but i am still a killer and i will do my best to win anyway.
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To the OP, I love your intention here. Doubtless, however, you'll get killer mains who will say "tunnelling and/or camping isn't toxic or "not playing nice", it's just efficient. And to me, therein lies the problem.
Yes it's efficient. Overwhelming so. Tunnel out a player at 5 gens and you are pretty much guaranteed a 3k, 4k if you slug #3 til you down #4 etc. The sole exception is swf, but that's not a guarantee that you won't still get a 3k/4k. The sheer advantage gained by taking out a survivor at the start is so overwhelming that killers see it as "playing smart/efficient". And until BHVR either heavily penalises such play, or heavily incentivises not tunnelling, the vast majority will continue to do so, that's at all skill levels from a total beginner to those with thousands of hours.
Camping is a completely different story. Hard camping first hook can usually be played around by gen rushing, but let be honest it's not ideal by any measure, especially not for the poor sod on the hook. And again, unless it's a 4-man swf, you don't know what others are doing. I'm a 99% soloQ player, and I'll try to save every single survivor I'm teamed with, even taking a hook trade if it stops them progressing a stage, yet how many times has that happened and I see the other 2 survivors working on a gen? Not often tbh. Most of the time one or both of them were also going for the save, meaning no-one is working on gens, and then you get stuck in a series of hook trades. Then there's my favourite, killers who claim their killer is "designed to camp" - the biggest pile of dog doo-doo of an excuse. Ok, so you play Twins and have an effective way to camp a hook while also looking for others. Or you are Bubba (enough said). Or you are one of the others people come up with a reason they are "designed" to camp (Trickser, Pyramid etc). Sorry, that doesn't wash with me. Yes, those killers I named have an effective way to camp. But that doesn't mean they were designed that way. Bubba is notoriously known for a camping killer, yet personally I have VASTLY more fun playing as him (which I do occasionally) without camping. I also do better in ratings, BP, pips etc.
To me, there's literally NO killer who was designed to camp. I play almost all killers to varying degrees, some way more than others, but the most fun I have in a game is by avoiding hard camping and hard tunnelling. Do I occasionally do strategic camp or tunnel? Absolutely! If there's 2 gens to go and I see a survivor near where I just hooked someone I'll get in a chase with them until they try to lead me away then go back and check the hook. And at end game, I'll obviously camp or tunnel someone who was just unhooked.
Until BHVR do something about hard C&T, people are gonna continue to do it, and thats a real shame and hugely detrimental to the game.
Btw, I'm a killer main (Cenobite), with occasional survivor games, which are 99% soloQ and 1% with 1 friend in a swf. So I don't main one of the top tier killers, and I'm not a survivor main.
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Why you people never understand you don't have to play for 8 hook everyone before killing anyone or hard tunnel/camp and quard 3 gen area. That's not your only options. You can play something in between you know? It's not like playing super nice but your killer not their friend. But you can let them have chance to have decent experience ans it's more rewarding to win bit harder way and it feels lot more deserved win too.
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I would have to say this depends on what is considered a win and what is playing nice.
Sometimes I even feel bad playing nice because I'm keeping survivors in a match longer that I (and I'm guessing they) know they are never going to win.
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It's not completely untrue. It just depends on what they mean by playing nice. Killers should avoid tunneling, but that doesn't mean they need to play nice either. I would rather be slugged than put back on the hook.
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What? MMR is loose, very loose. But I find it very unlikely you win 19 games out of 20 by 12 hooking, no camping or tunneling whatsoever.
That would be the biggest challenge in DbD. Screw Alf's winstreak, screw the Hardcore Survivor. Child's play. Show me the guy who goes on a 19 winstreak by playing nice. Rofl.
1 -
I never said i was struggling, that is just the experience in high level play. You have to play mean or you lose. It's simply an observation.
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Looks like we would need an incentive for the killers to move away from the hook while also giving them something for the effort put into hooking someone.
How about we make survivors unhook themselves after like what, 10-15 (more or less) seconds of the killer being around the hook? This will force the killer away and also make him think his hooks better, cause if he hooks someone close to a gen, he can't defend the gen without letting the survivor eventually unhook himself.
But what does the killer get in return ? He needs to have an advantage too if he's forced to leave the hook so how about after an unhook happens, the other 2 survivors, have their auras revealed to the killer for x seconds, kind of like a bbq but it's way more efficient since it happens after you're away from the hook and presumably closer to them. That would impose a risk on the other 2 survivers as well, since it's usually 1 guy taking the risk of unhooking and the other 2 doing some random stuff or repairing a gen without a care in the world.
Now those kind of survivors can't just be like "Oh imma stay here on the furthest gen from the hook, being safe while someone else risks his life for the unhook", cause if they get the unhook you're probably the one in danger not them.
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Mmm Hello.. you are a killer and your job its to kill and make survivors suffer. In which part the game is telling you to play "nice"? That's literally your choice, you can't expect the same results by playing "nice" as if you fully commit to kill everyone.
If the game was about being nice it would have been called "Hug by Daylight"
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The problem is the win conditions. Kills = wins (remember "Theyre Killers not Hookers") ?? If you play efficient and kill people as fast as possible, you won't be respecting the survivors unwritten rule book. The win conditions on both sides make the game boring. Why not design it around chasing people. Everyone likes to chase and get chased.
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Mate, this was legitimately the case in multiple instances in the past but now more than ever you have way more leniency than you used to as killer.
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Yeah against clueless megs, lockers Dwight's, and Blendettes. High mmr survivor teams are evil as hell to go against. You aren't winning 95% of your games playing nice.
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