"Survivors don't deserve free escapes"
This is a phrase I've seen used around very frequently, initially used in terms of Decisive Strike, more recently in debates around Off The Record and basekit post-unhook Endurance, and as of Project W, Reassurance. The general argument is that, during endgame, certain perks should deacitvate which hamper the killer's efforts of killing the survivor. I will try to keep my own opinions around any perks discussed here out of the conversation- feel free to look at my comment history if you're curious.
My question is, though, why should the killer get "free kills"? Because, in essence, disabling all of the anti-camp, anti-tunnel, and anti-slug tools that Survivors possess will equate to "free kills", where the Survivor team has very little they can do in terms of assisting a hooked teammate, which becomes progressively more likely as a Trial continues due to resources being consumed. Naturally, good SWF players on comms are able to bodyblock for each other and try and get their teammates to safety, but even bad SWF players or just solo queue will struggle substantially more without, say, BT or Reassurance to help with camping. And quite frankly, if you still can't get a hook after 5 gens have popped, you really don't deserve one, so the edge case of the killer having nobody on the hook nor having them been hooked the entire trial doesn't really apply.
So, why is it always that Survivors don't deserve "free escapes" and yet end-game camping/tunneling is justified because it's how the killer is able to score some last kills? Why should Survivors lose access to their tools while killers gain a massive boost to theirs (due to a lack of map resources)?
I'm genuinely curious why the argument is used so much- in my honest opinion, there are other arguments that can be used in their place which, at least to me, sound substantially less balanced.
If this post feels like a ramble and/or makes very little sense, I do apologise- I've been sat on a coach for the past 24 hours and caught an illness that's turned my brain to mush. Writing in grammatically correct sentences is about all I can manage right now, because my brain unhelpfully supplies every third word in German instead of English.
Comments
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From my POV the argument boils down to something like this:
Anti tunnel perks like DS and OTR are there to keep a survivor from being killed too quickly in the early and midgame. I feel if a survivor reaches endgame, then they weren't exactly tunnelled too hard. These perks being disabled in the endgame stops situations where the killer had no real recourse for dealing with that survivor. You know that already def, but it's worth saying again.
I think it's less about free kills and more so about making it easier for the Killer to salvage what I would imagine is a losing game for them. Obviously that's not always the case, you can make it to endgame and still be screwed then lose because your perks don't work but - yeah.
Killer don't deserve free kills, but tunnelling or camping in the endgame is essentially the killer's main goal since all gens are gone and defending gates is basically impossible.
That's how I see it, at least - hopefully that makes sense
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Why should the Killer get free Kills?
They shouldn't.
I feel like the place we are at now is...fairly balanced. Basekit BT and Haste allow for counterplay from the Killer during the EGC whilst not allowing them to just knock the Survivor down almost immediately.
Some people may have an issue with it and they are allowed to hold their opinion. It's wrong but I suppose they are allowed that luxury.
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It’s the feeling of unfairness many killers get from second chance perks almost like you’ve been cheated out of a killer because someone brought a perk in instead of outskilling you.
Many killer players feel that as the “power role” they should naturally win most matches when it really shouldn’t be like that in practise
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Ehh that might be it for some but I think for many of us it's that those perks would create huge lose/lose scenarios that 80% of the roster can't do anything about
A guy's unhooked when a gate is open and he has OTR/DS - He now has 2 health states to hold W to a gate and even if you down him, you eat a stun despite the fact the alternative is to let that survivor just leave.
Not all perks should have these 'disabled in endgame' conditions though, only perks designed to counter certain strats I.E Tunnelling. I think Reassurance and Kinship working in endgame for example is fine because they still need to be rescued and there is inherent risk there
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But you see, I'd argue my point still stands with the OTR/DS in endgame thing. "Survivors don't deserve a free escape" really isn't that great of an argument for removal, because the opposite of that is that the killer deserves that kill simply for getting the hook during endgame. A much better argument for the removal of endgame OTR/DS is "There is no feasable counterplay to these perks in endgame", because the counter to an end-game DS is to literally eat it early, which isn't really countering the perk because you still have to go through it.
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Yeah endgame DS was BS and I’m glad they got rid of it. At this point though I see no point complaining about anti tunnel perks when neither are extremely strong
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It's not a free kill if the survivor had to he chased, downed, and hooked. With how BT is, an unhooked survivor can protect the person who made the unhook. In late game it really is a free escape.
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The argument I mentioned is what I believe people mean when they say "survs don't deserve free escapes" but it's worded in such a frankly stupid manner since like you said, the opposite shouldn't be true either.
You are right though, you could play around DS by eating it early but OTR is a different beast I think. A good point all round though
I actually think OTR is pretty strong for what it is, but it's not to the point of old DS by a long shot.
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I think your problem is that you are using a wack definition of free. Decisive literally gave you an escape without counterplay. Survivors have counterplay off the hook. It is not free. That is the difference. It is a pretty freaking huge one at that. Lol.
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This. Most games of killer I've had that made it that far can really boil down to "Either I down you now, or I lose you completely." The basekit BT is enough for other survivors to come and try and defend, while still not letting them get out. It sets it up so the survivors can at least do something.
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DS and OTR should deactivate at endgame though, Reassurance shouldn't. Simple.
BT I'm kinda on the fence about but I think most people are fine with it still working in endgame.
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In which case, allow me to define my definition of "free" in relation to a "free kill" or a "free escape". The definition I am working off of is "without meaningful, consistent counterplay."
Decisive Strike, for instance, pre-6.1.0 would provide a "free escape" in that there was no meaningful counterplay during the endgame. You could eat a stun early or hope you killed them pre-endgame, one of which was not consistent, and the other of which wasn't really countering the perk since you still got hit by it.
So, say we removed Reassurance, Borrowed Time, and the post-unhook Endurance and Haste from the endgame. What meaningful, consistent counterplay is there that can be pulled off in all forms of play, not just SWF, to a killer facecamping a hooked survivor? I'd argue there's very little. Taking hits requires coordination, for example, which is something that matchmaking and a lack of information steals from solo queue.
Therefore, I would argue that Survivors require some defence, even during the endgame, to these strategies, and that through teamwork they should be able to escape using them when alone they would have struggled. Disabling every defence a Survivor has during the endgame to these strategies would, in fact, sentence a survivor to death the second they are hooked (which, again, much easier to do late-game when resources are gone). This is why I don't believe the argument that Survivors don't deserve "free escapes" is a good justification for removing every defence to camping and tunneling they have during the endgame. Simply those that lack true counterplay, such as DS or OTR, should be gone (and low and behold, they're gone).
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NOED, Blood Warden, No Way Out, Remember Me, Devour Hope, Terminus…
Combined with faster hit recovery, obtaining Bloodlust sooner, basekit Save the Best for Last.
Killers have counterplay for survivors who make it to EGC. It’s unsettling that survivor perks are disabling during endgame while killer perks are not. Personally, I think if four survivors make it to EGC in this meta, they’ve outplayed the killer who, if proficient, would not have allowed them to make it to EGC.
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That is completely fair. A lot of the survivor based counterplay is team work based and very unreliable as a result. Heck, during end game, my sister and I were both hooked and a Mikaela ran to me, changed her mind, booned the totem that the killer had previously snuffed from that location and let me hit stage 2. My sister was already stage 2 and she risked her dying to save me first while the other survivor was in chase this entire time, only... Towards the end of the chase, guess where she started leading the killer? Yes. To my sister.
Anyways. Long story short, as you can imagine, we were all pretty likely to die given these questionable decisions. But funny enough my sister was doing that Claudette challenge and had a full heal build, so between the two of us, we set up the gates and took the proper hits to get everyone out through the power of swf.
So that is why my opinion is kind of both ways about it. Without my sister coordinating with me, he would have gotten a 3k at least. With her, we all got out. It is such a stark difference what a tiny bit of teamwork can accomplish.
As far as end game perks, believe it or not, my only beef was with DS. I do not even care about off the record. If they want that to work during end game, I am fine with that, completely. I cried about it for so long and they finally fixed it, I could not be happier. And I DO believe survivors should have end game defenses.
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Because its a 1v4 game, so the 1 should be stronger than the 4.
Better answer though? Because anti-tunnel and anti-camp shouldn't be locked behind a perk, just as anti-gen rush shouldn't be either. They should completely make them base mechanics.
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Better answer though? Because anti-tunnel and anti-camp shouldn't be locked behind a perk, just as anti-gen rush shouldn't be either. They should completely make them base mechanics.
And I completely agree, which is why I'm so shocked that even the 5 seconds of basekit post-unhook Endurance was being targeted for deletion. Honestly, I'm more than happy with the 10 seconds, I just wish they'd remove collision during those 10 seconds.
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First of all - to be honest, I feel DS a little bit overnerfed. I would keep the 5 seconds before endgame, and it can be 3 sec in endgame. Then it wouldn't be nerfed to the ground, and it still wouldn't be a real free escape.
Now the rest of what you said. And it is my opinion as a killer main, maybe other killermains think other ways...
As others mentioned it too - these free escapes come in endgame. Midgame it is an antitunnel perk (mostly), even if many survivor "abused" it, forced you to "eat" it. Just like when they try to force you to hit them after BT. And this perk is not for this. But this is not the main part or what I would like to talk about.
At endgame with BT/DS/medkitaddons you have 2 healthstates. While you usually get close enough to the gate. When the killer can choose from 2 ######### options - pick you up, and eat your stun, also loose from their emblem; Or let you crawl out on the gate. And you don't have to do anything for this (well beside hit your space on that skillcheck). You can get out alive with this even if you did nothing, just repairing gens,or just hide in the corner while all the others do the work, chase with the killer and finishing gens. Just cause of a perk with almost zero effort or skill.
Meanwhile on the other hand, what you say - "free kills". It is never free. Well almost never. Because in many cases there are 2, or 3 other survivors. And I know many killer camp/tunnel at 5 gens, I usually do it only at 1 or 0 gens, when usually no other option to get some kills. And before "if you couldn't get a kill over 5 gens blahblah". The Killer is in the game too, to accomplish things. And when you play against BNPs with proove (and it is not too rare things, especially after bloodweb changes) and 3-4 gens finished at your first hook...
So in this scenaio you have to defend the hook against 2-3 survivors while they try to trick you with their hitboxes, try to blind you etc. With your skills, and killerpower. No perk will help you for free. Meanwhile the gate is opened, or at 99. If they managed, to unhook then you have to chase, down, pick up (flashlights, pallets etc can prevent you from this), bring to a hook (sabo, boil over, bodyblocks, perks can prevent you from this) and hook again.
Now compare the two things. This, and hit space. So yeah, DS is a free escape if you not forced out of survivors early (or at least it worked like this before the nerf). While you have to work hard even with your camp to secure your kill. That's why survivors get it removed at endgame, and they need to use skills instead of "tools"
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It is quite simple, while you state that survivors can do little about it, there are options and manners go succeed. The survivors determine the moment the disable happens by finishing the last gen even, giving them the control required.
Now, let's say you enable them on the survivor end. It can literally become impossible to kill the survivor or if you want to live in pure theory a so unlikely possiblity to secure a kill. Simple example with Off the Record. All your team needs to do is 99 or open the gates and get you off the hook. Not only that you will be able to get off the hook and body block to prevent the 1 for 1. The fact is that just because you enter end game, doesn't mean the survivors get to call it early.
That is why it is called free, because realistically regardless of how the killer plays the only way you die is by your own bad play. At least against the killer, coordinate, good plays and all that can still get everyone out. One side is going to have an advantage, which one is more fair. They also still offer options and even base game buffs to make it easier for survivors to counter it. You played long enough, you should know.
It isn't like they disabled all perks that can bail you out or greatly assist. They are simply different perks; Hope, BT, Adrenaline and the likes. Part of it is also based on what the perks should do and what their goal is. The anti tunnel and camp perks are for the early and mid game. Their goal is to help you get to the end game. If you give them the best effects for end game as well... What are the end game perks worth at that point? It is like for killers having gen regression perks and end game perks like No Way Out, NOED, Blood Warden combined to cover each phase of the game.
Perks are not supposed to be that strong at all stages of the match. They are still amazing perks, though DS stun nerf was unnecessary and really restricts where it has impact.
It isn't about getting a free kill, it is more about not placing the killer in an impossible situation where loss is the only realistic outcome. You still have to down someone before they end up on the hook, the survivors determine when the loss of these perks happen and simultaneously when other perks become active with powerful effects.
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For me I don't like the idea of the extended BT and Haste cause there is literally nothing you can do about it in some situations, which is similar to old DS. However I also don't like the idea of getting a guranteed kill during endgame cause the bt time/haste isn't good enough. What I want is a middle ground but finding that middle ground is difficult. Since 10 seems too much and 5 is too little why not try 7 or 8 secs? Also that 10% seems kinda unfair against Trickster and Huntress.
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It would be better if base Gen regression was increased but that's just me...
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Because most killers want easy kills at endgame. I can count on one had how many times I got hit by ds at endgame past year. Because I always avoided that situation winning the game before endgame or downing the survivor before he could reach exit and then wait ds out usually I got unhooker down as well. Some situations the unhooked got away but then I got the unhooker.
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I'd argue that the 10% is more than fair vs Trickster and Huntress considering they're able to hit from range and Trickster especially is notoriously the second best camper in the game, behind Bubba. because of how easily he can shred through health states when he's wound up his throwing speed.
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Yes but BT has endurance which would give the survivors a boost if they used their knives/hatchet. This isn't including survivors can bodyblock for their teammates. Maybe Trickster can do something about that but huntress definitely can't.
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Provided you're good enough at aiming and don't get Lerys, you have 5 hatches and need to hit at maximum 5 if not fewer. I'd say that's doable provided you don't suck as badly as I do.
You hit the unhooked, Endurance activates. Someone takes a hit, that's 2 hatchets. Another hit of survivor 3, 3 hatxhets. Survivor 4 takes a hit, 4 hatchets. Now 3 people are injured, 1 is in deep wounds, and depending on addons you have between 1 and 4 hatchets remaining.
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Tombstone myers is the second best camper in the game, actually. They try to unhook and they just get instakilled instead
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I'd argue Trickster is both more consistent and, you know, actually hooks people instead of just kills them outright. Plus by that logic (can instantly kill someone who tries to unhook) Myers actually becomes the best camper in the game, overtaking even Bubba.
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It's honestly quite sad that Trickster's main event only really shines in situations where survivors are either in a bad spot (low loops) or are basically standing still lmao. Same could be said for his normal power as well
I hope they take him back to the drawing board at some point
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“...disabling all of the anti-camp, anti-tunnel, and anti-slug tools that Survivors possess will equate to ‘free kills’”
I don’t think anyone here advocates for disabling them all. But individual protective/second chance perks following an unhook need limitations once the end game has been reached. It’s unrealistic to expect a killer to go for different and stronger targets once they have nowhere left to patrol. Survivors still have plenty of altruistic options to save a teammate in the end game. Borrowed Time, Breakout, For The People, Saboteur, toolboxes, flashlights - all still available to all survivors for use in the end game. Even Breakdown could come in clutch for that survivor.
And as a survivor main, I think it is healthier for the game’s balance that it be this way. Do we want all matches ending in a 4k or 0k? Or can BHVR better achieve their desired kill rates through one or two end game kills? And those survivors got to play a full game. In no way do I expect anything but camping and tunneling in the end game. I wouldn’t hold it against any killer, because I would do the exact same thing. It’s only logical, not always personal.
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Well he probably is. I end up hooking people as tombstone myers fairly often. Either because they jump into a locker, I misclicked, or the survivor is being a potato
And I might even argue discipline doctor or even just regular Myers is better than Trickster. Discipline doctor can shock fast enough to stop multiple survivors from unhooking entirely, replicating Bubba. He just needs to be far back enough that the cone covers enough ground the survivors can't run in and out of the shock range between the shocks.
Trickster is good if they are out in the open but if the hook is nearby a corner or something you usually can't stop someone just running up and getting the unhook. If it's basement or on a hill or something sure
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This is were people get it wrong. The 1 shouldn't be stronger than the 4. The 1 should be on the same level as the 4. If the 1 is stronger than that's an imbalanced game. This notion that the 1 should be stronger needs to stop.
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Well, realistically, in a 1v4 like DbD, having everyone to an equal power will just lead to a stalemate more than anything. I feel as if the 1 needs to be slightly stronger, the 4 with coordination can overcome the 1 but the 1 still has the strength to be able to do stuff. But with certain situations it becomes a lot more complex, as when you shift the power too much in one direction, or have things way too equal/even, it leads to situations where either the 1 or 4 feels hopeless.
Overall it's not as simple as people make it out to be, there is a lot of nuance with this type of stuff. It's not as simple as the 1 being stronger, the same strength, or weaker than the 4, because of said nuance.
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If both sides are on equal levels in term of balance then it comes down to the better player. Either the 4 win or the killer wins. Now the hard thing is what counts as a win. A 3k for killer, a 3 man out? That's were the devs would have to come in and say what the actual win condition is.
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By that logic it's not a free escape because someone had to risk the rescue.
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Why? Because it's a horror game and once survivors are past the initial learning stage, there's no horror to be found.
Having one single part of a game that is deadly is a thematic feature, not a failure of the game design.
Killers don't deserve 4K every game. But survivors don't deserve 4E every game either. In fact, BOTH should be incredibly rare. But unlike the hatch, which can give that last survivor a pretty good shot at escaping an otherwise certain death, killers do not have anything that helps prevent an otherwise certain full team escape.
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If your argument is "bad swfs + solos can't do x" then by the same hand we need to revert AA and many killer nerfs because "bad x and non mobile killers can't make use of it".
If you nerf tunneling and camping then you increase the number of survivors who make it to EGC. 3 survivors alive vs most of the cast will play the game of 99 gates and heal up while the killer is at the hook. At this point you start the game of survivors nudging forward and backward at various angles to poke the killer and see what he does. Typically it will turn into the grab game with the 2 survivors who then will attempt to bodyblock for the survivor who eventually gets hit. The survivor who got unhooked won't bee-line for the gate they will actually throw themselves in front of the killer to bodyblock with endurance.
Giving survivors tools to combat slugging and tunneling is totally fine and needed but they can't also become amazing bodyblock weapons in EGC.
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Because the role that's supposed to be the power role should never feel helpless. But you feel that way plenty if you actually care about winning as killer. Comeback potential, for example. The killer has to have everything go 100% right for them to bring the game back when they're in a losing position. But survivor? If they don't get all the gens done, they have hatch. If they don't get hatch, they now have gates. If they don't have gates, they can find a key for hatch again. You see what I mean? That's all base for survivor, but the killer has to equip a perk, sometimes multiple perks, just to get one second chance.
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I don't think people look enough at the macro gameplay when making comments and critiques regarding a perk's strength--be it for killer or survivor.
A killer doesn't "lose the game" when they eat DS at the exit gate.
They lost the game when they failed to find a survivor before the first gen popped. They lost the game when they failed to protect themself against 3 flashlight saves. They lost the game when they left their 3-gen and chased Claudette across the map for 2 whole minutes.
Likewise, a survivor doesn't "lose the game" when No Way Out activates, and the killer downs them with NOED.
They lost the game when they neglected to keep a mental note of which perks a killer is using. They lost the game when they unhooked their teammate before the killer even had time to walk away. They lost the game when they let their teammate go to second stage, so they could self-care in the corner.
The results of a trial are the cumulation of decisions we make over the course of that trial.
If you make too many mistakes, at a certain point you need to face the music. That "lose/lose" scenario is one of your own creation--you just have to own that and learn from it.
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But then where's the fear? This game specifically is a horror game, so of all the games out there with this format, this game should have the 1 be a threat at all times, not just in the first 1/3 of the game. There have been too many matches where 2 or more of the 4 didn't pull their weight, but got out anyway just because their objective is so easy. That makes the 1 bullyable. The role that is mechanically harder should have an easier time through simple game balance, not be thrown into the deep end which is what these devs have done. Many people don't want to play killer because it requires time investment and skill development that, in 90% of scenarios, isn't gonna matter anyway.
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They're plenty strong. That's why you still see people body blocking and going for flashlight/pallet saves, because their perks make them practically immune and don't deactivate from them doing those things. It's defensive perks being used offensively.
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Honestly sounds more like you're not as good at killer as you think you are - which isn't an insult, playing killer effectively requires a lot of scheming and some people like to blame balance issues globally rather than looking at anything they could have done better throughout the game. These perks are not strong at all and playing killer is now easier than its ever been across most MMR ranges.
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I think you've hit a false dichotomy here.
Both of those things can be true.
Survivors don't deserve free escapes, and killers don't deserve free kills.
I don't think anyone's asking for anti camp/tunnel/slug perks to be disabled. I...can't think of any posts along these lines since 6.1.0.
In terms of EOGC kills, that's...complicated.
The issue is that the endgame should be a crisis point for both sides, but for the longest time it was only a crisis point for killers.
On the other hand, the sides are different. A 4k feels bad for survivors. A 0k feels bad for killers. Thus, we have tools like Hatch to help at least one survivor get away, and killers will often camp in the EOGC to help them get...something.
Perks like DS and OTR are utterly miserable to face in the endgame, because these do often give completely free escapes. A savvy group of survivors can save someone getting camped in the EOGC, pretty often. But if someone has DS or OTR up, there's absolutely zero counterplay and they get their 'free' escape.
Make sense?
Also - you sat on a what? XD
I agree.
It's been wonderful seeing a variety of perks again, and not just DH/IW/DS/SC
I do think DS needs to go back to 5 seconds (disabling it in the EOGC was enough) as currently this barely fulfills it's purpose and SC...SC was fine. I still see a lot of it, but it's now a noob trap.
Solo survivors do need...something too.
Nobody is a perfect player - and endgame DS was less a balance issue and more just a 'this feels really crappy to play against' thing. It's one thing to have to fight for a kill, and another thing to get that kill, and then instead get DSed and teabagged all the way to the exit.
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Anti tunnel perks like DS and OTR are there to keep a survivor from being killed too quickly in the early and midgame.
Anti-tunnel perks like DS and OTR are there to keep survivors alive in general. Throughout entire game. that's why these perks are as good as they are. Disabling them in end game is giving killer free kills.
why is this problematic? It means killer do not need be balanced around hooks, winning chases and map presence. After all, why bother with all that when the killers get 1-2k on average by just camping hooks in the end game assuming killer excels at camping. You might as well just put NOED as base-kit perk so that every killer gets free kills equally in end game.
well written post.
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The difference is that killers don't get free kills when those perks deactivate. The problem is that Decisive Strike and Off the Record, if used during the endgame, can guarantee an escape for both the rescuing survivor and the hooked survivor, with no drawback or even a chance of failure. If I have someone hooked during the EGC and the survivor team is good, I'll sometimes end up getting no kills out of it even without DS and OTR, and on rare occasions it'll turn a 0-1K into a 3-4K if the survivors are bad, but mostly it just results in the two of them trading hooks.
And that hook wasn't a "free kill". I earned it by chasing and downing someone. There shouldn't be a perk combo that exists in the game that can take that away from me with no counterplay.
Now, I don't see how Reassurance would equate to a free escape during endgame, but I haven't played PTB, and I don't know. If it's the endgame and I have someone hooked, I'm probably camping it anyway.
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Well I think you're trying to insult my intelligence and gaslight, although you did a poor job of doing that. There was nothing that I said in my post that was incorrect. These perks are strong, because they allow body blocks and flashlight saves that don't count as conspicuous actions, and therefore don't deactivate, so that survivors can use their defensive perks as a shield even while running at the killer offensively. Those survivors exist, even if others use those same perks just to get away. I don't see how stating any of that could be misinterpreted as me simply being bad at the game, but hey, you made it work.
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Survivors dont need perks to be able to get out during end game. If you dont have OTR or DS at end game and you are unhooked
it doesnt mean you are a free kill. You generally have from 1 to 3 team mates willing to body block and take hits for you and depending on where you have been hooked its trivial to escape.
If you do have otr and ds active in end game though, its basically gg.
I dont expect you to understand the nuance since you are the loony that was asking for ds to be 10 seconds. Sluzzy 0.6.
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Dead by Daylight is horror themed. It is not actual horror.
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Its horror themed tag, its great.
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You gotta remember killers in 2022 still believe Camping and Tunneling are actual skillful playstyles.
Hanging around to look around the wall before turning back to chase the same survivor takes a lot of work. Walking back to the hook is hard. 🙄
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Well that's why I was hesitant to take that position, because I knew that people would just reply to that part and not the rest. My point still stands that the 1 should never feel powerless, when it totally does all the time in this game, and not just for new players.
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You are missing the point. The 1 and 4 should be the same when you put the 4 together. But the 4 is a team. So 25% of their team should be weaker than the 1. So 1 survivor should always be weaker than the killer. So when you say "killers don't deserve a free kill" the point is that it should be harder for the survivors to save the 1 survivor on the hook, then it is for the killer to get the hook. They should have to coordinate like crazy, coordinate the save, body block, use their perks together etc. to save that 1. It should be very difficult for them.
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