"Survivors don't deserve free escapes"
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Survivors have rescue options such as bodyblocking, unhook faking etc. With 10 second base BT, i dont think killer can get a "free kill" if survivors plays well. Also after the DS and OTR nerfs, survivors cant get free escapes either. Fair enough.
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I wasn't talking about endgame DS, I was talking about the anti camp / tunnel / basekit changes that were made.
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A coach? Der Reisebus?
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Oh I stand by this point. DS could easily be a 10 second stun that works on both hook states to actually deter tunneling (as long as we make some other changes, such as Endurance removing collision so that BT/OTR Bodyblocking goes away). But then, people would still tunnel at 5 gens and complain they got hit by DS, wouldn't they?
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I'd argue that my argument is much closer to "These tactics don't have consistent, good counterplay" than "bad people can't do this" - it's just that both statements are very closely linked, because performing something consistently is massively different to doing so in solo. When solo queue becomes much more coordinated and matchmaking functions, then great, but until then I'd argue that for both Survivors and Killers to stand a chance at doing something to help their friend then at least some camping and tunneling defences, such as the post-unhook Endurance and Reassurance, can stay.
And for the record: I am fine with DS and OTR being deactivated during endgame. By my definition of "lacking any consistent, good counterplay" both of these perks gave a free win because there was very little you could consistently do to counter them in endgame.
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All I can say is these perks they could be free escapes, but that's doesn't equal a free kill if the perks are disabled endgame.
Already if the hook is close enough to the gate and the survivor is unhooked with DS then they are probably escaping and there is nothing the killer can do against that survivor.
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DS and OTR being disabled in the endgame is why I believe the perks are now designed to make them for early to mid game use. It's not as if all perks stop working in the endgame, just the two main specifically designed 'anti-tunnel' perks. BHVRs always said they don't want to punish camping and tunnelling but rather heavily deincentivize it and like I said I think if you make it to endgame, you haven't really been tunnelled too hard and have had a chance to actually play the match. That's my logic at least
Obviously, that's assuming the Killer didn't just get ran for 5 gens or something
If all perks stopped working in the endgame period I would agree with you though. Like if exhaustion perks for example stopped working during endgame I'd say that's kinda dumb
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Probably because a kill or two is literally nothing, also if survivors don't deserves to get a free escapes then there wouldn't be hatches or EGC with gate power up too.
Both free escapes and free kills have the place in this game, that's literally what they are doing.
It makes sense to disable any anti camping/tunneling at endgame if we see it like that, so I suppose it's just a situation of "what they are saying is not always truth" moment.
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Well, yes. Because this is a videogame and someone will always complain about any change introduced.
In the words of the great Yahtzee - Cows go 'moo', sheep go 'baa', PvPers go 'this game is imbalanced'.
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THIS.
My God. Killers have so many choices to trap or thwart survivors in end game. We had old Decisive and Borrowed Time. And in Solo Q, I would usually run both pre 6.1. 90% of the time, Decisive would be used before end game. But in those super rare occasions it wasn't, maybe it allowed me out the gate a scant handful of times over zillions of games. 4 man escapes don'ts happen that much in Solo. It was never a "free" escape. I paid for it with a perk slot! I sacrificed having something else that could have helped me. This whole idea of survivor perks disabling at the end game is ridiculous because the complaints about them giving "free escapes" are dependent on so many bloody conditions. Namely, the survivor has to be running it (many didn't!) and hooked *right near the gate*. ALSO (and this will resonate with most Solos) it's dependent on your bloody team mates actually rescuing you LOL. Usually in SOlo when they do, it's a hook exchange. So even if the person with Decisive technically made it out the gate- you have Dwight the hero as a consolation. And Dwight is rarely a hero.
And again, this is all situational. Usually, that hooked survivor at end game is nowhere near the Exit gate. And Killers have shown time after time that will tunnel through old BT + DS during game. They will tunnel through new OTR.
So I'm really disappointed that Devs expect survivors to waste perk slots (and let's face it, anti-camp/tunnel perks have been necessary) only to have them deactivate during crunch time.
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you haven't really been tunnelled too hard and have had a chance to actually play the match.
DS and OTR being disabled in the endgame is why I believe the perks are now designed to make them for early to mid game use.
Getting to end game does not mean you did not get tunneled. it mean the killer failed to kill the survivors before you finished your objective. tunneling and camping can occur at all points of the game. I see no reason for perks to turn off. the survivor earned their escape if they made to exit gate. Its just that certain survivors have a bit too big of ego and generally act toxic when they escape the killer. DS at exit gates was mostly toxic power-trip.
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That's the thing though, the two perks in question made it so you could make to an exit gate no matter where you were and there wasn't much most killers could do about it. Yeah some people would use DS to be annoying in the gate itself, but many times when I used to run the perk once we got to endgame I knew I could basically always escape if someone unhooked me because the killer can't leave me slugged for a whole minute if I was close enough to a gate. I wasn't entitled to those escapes, DS just handed me them.
It's not so much that camping and tunnelling doesn't exist in the endgame, more so the point of those 2 strats is to get rid of a survivor early on in the match to make it a 3v1 and thus a way easier match to win. If endgame happens (and that was your playstyle) then you've failed at doing that and are essentially in damage control mode
DS/OTR in endgame is kinda like a lose-more situation now that I think of it, like if you're already losing - getting hit with these 2 perks in the endgame just makes you lose even harder
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If endgame happens then you've failed at doing that and are essentially in damage control mode
Killers shouldn't have a damage control mode. they've already essentially lost when they hit end game when most of the team is alive.
Survivors used to have damage control mode. that damage control mode was Old keys and hatch.
DS/OTR in endgame is kinda like a lose-more situation now that I think of it,
The end game in general for DBD is suppose to lose more or win-more situation depending which side is in the advantage. for survivor, when 1 survivor is remaining, when killer closes the hatch, the end game timer is lose-more situation for survivor in most cases because the killer is suppose to win. the odds of opening exit gate are not favourable for the survivor.
DS/OTR in end game is the survivor version of end game-timer for killer. your expected to not get any kills when all 4 survivors are alive, though camping hooks in the end game for many killers is quite strong that the killer still gets kills even though they've lost and the survivor is supposedly in the advantage. I think large reason why killer have large average kill statistic is because killer doesn't really lose, instead they draw(get 2 kills) when they lose and win hard when they win due how end game is structured against the survivor when the survivor loses.
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It punishes killers that didn't tunnel in a way because you spread out hooks and instead of getting a kill, you end up with the gens popping and a guy on the hook that gets a free escape.
The tunnel protection should stop after the killer gets 4 hooks that were not the same survivor 2 times in a row.
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Bro what?
I'm sorry, not supposed to be rude, but i've never heard that anybody thinks a Killer should win most of his matches, because Killer is the power role.
The point is, that with DS and OTR in EGC there is absolutely NOTHING you can do as Killer. If you hit the unhooked Survivor, they DS you, and everyone else is healthy. That even encourages tunneling early on, so DS isn't there later in the game, and if the survivor had no DS, they were screwed.
Now, survivors have a fair chance of escaping, while it's not free.
The person starting this discussion got a fair point tbh, that disabling DS and OTR in EGC hits soloq harder than SWF, but that has nothing to do with Killer mains wanting to win all there games because of a superiority complex.
(In case you're wondering: no, i'm not a Killer main, i play both roles the same amount. But i don't have a problem with DS and OTR disabling in EGC because i don't use these. A way bigger problem is the 3 sec stun, which is not enough)
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You pretty much answered your own question in this reply.
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Exactly. No one should have their perks disabled during crunch time when there is still game left to play. Nerfing/buffing is one thing, but straight-up disabling perks EGC? What's even worse is how we have a handful now and people want to advocate for even more perks to be disabled during EGC (Praying for your well-being Reassurance), and I'm sure you can guess which side the majority, if not all, those perks belong to. Guess that's the new way since the balancing is aimed towards the lowest common denominator. Absolutely mind boggling to me.
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But the killer isn´t getting a free kill, is he? There are complete builds, that revolve around extending the endgame/killing only at late game. Why would that be a free kill? Survivors can complain, when they get camped/tunneled out early. But at the end of the match?
Telling the killer to get his kills before that, is asking the killer to play as efficient (kill wise) as possible = Aka tunneling.
Survivors aren´t losing their tools. OtR and DS are there to give a safety net against tunneling. Obviously, if the survivors made it till the endgame, the killer either didn´t tunnel or those perks did their job.
Also, as far as i´m aware. Survivors are the only ones with a whole mechanic of a free escape. Even when the objective wasn´t completed. As long as there isn´t some kind of mechanic, that closes the gates once 3 survivors escaped... survivors really shouldn´t be complaining.
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My question was why use a horrifically flawed argument to justify removing every anti-camp and tunnel protection survivors have in endgame when there are much better arguments to use. And no, I did not answer that.
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The issue lies in the ever shifting definition of "counterplay." Some people use it to mean that they have a significant chance for their actions to improve their outcome which would otherwise be decided for them by their opponent. Others use it to describe a thing they do to guarantee their actions to improve their outcome which would otherwise be decided for them by their opponent. The first definition is the logically consistent one, its removing a lose/lose situation and creating a win alternative instead, while the latter wants to turn a lose/lose into a lose/lose for the opposite side. This is the biggest issue with "free" anything in this game: People want to pull an uno reversal card the second they get outplayed, rather than give themselves a chance to outplay the outplay. It always comes back to people bemoaning the difficulties of their own position, while trying to stack the odds away from their opposition.
Situations like second chances in EGC CAN ABSOLUTELY create lose/lose, entirely uncounterable situations for either side, much like they can for the rest of the game. The difference is that the game has mostly wrapped up at this point, survivors are supposed to be deciding whether to leave or go for that last save as a matter of greed, not guarantee. Its supposed to be risky, and the EGC timer itself puts more onus on each action.... Therefore having the ability for survivors to just nullify all of the situation's difficulty with perk choices is kinda silly. Not everyone does, and some of them try and fail, but when executed correctly there simply is nothing most killers can do, it returns once again to the only way the killer can win the situation is if the survivor makes a mistake.
One could argue "the hooked survivor can't escape unless the killer makes a mistake" but thats how things work now since most of those perks are disabled in endgame. The killer has agency to secure a kill while still having a pretty decent amount of room for human error to make the save. But most importantly it stays consistent with enforcing how risky end game actions are supposed to be. Its also enforcing how greedy it is, if they already have the escape but refuse to take it in search of more points/emblems/whatever reason.
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You're talking about OTR and DS, two perks I have no issue with being disabled due to their lack of real endgame counterplay, but when I say "every tool" I mean everything, including the new basekit post-unhook Endurance. And yes, I have seen people advocating for that.
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Probably meant the 4 as stronger than each individual
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Ohh you´re talking about that. Well its hard to say. On one hand, it gives solos an incentive for a late game unhook. On the other hand, it would be extremely strong in the hands of SWF.
I´ve been asking for a long time for solo survivor improvements that don´t buff SWF. Because SWF doesn´t need any more buffs.
So my take would be to activate it, while playing solo and deactivate it during endgame, when playing SWF (and the friends are still alive).
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For the most part i agree with keeping stuff like basekit BT.... if they didn't extend the duration.
10 seconds gives you enough time to escape the basement for free, without even needing bodyblocks. Then you get the other survivors blocking the doorways and boom, guaranteed lose/lose for the killer. At 5 seconds this wasn't an issue, and required at least some bodyblocking to reach the window or pallet... but thats out the window now.
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Don't you think it is a little disingenuous to say they "escape basement for free?"
The survivor made the err of going down close enough for the killer to carry them to basement. The entire team pays for that err by either hook-trading to save them, or by sacrificing multiple health states and time on objective to save them.
The killer can't instantly down the survivor who was just on hook in basement, but what is so wrong with that? You think that player wants to spend the rest of their game in basement?
Basement has tremendous snowball potential, but it should not be a guaranteed death sentence.
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I don't think its disingenuous at all when the duration of your immunity lasts long enough to reach a defensible position? Its not always "the entire team" and that goes into what i was talking about earlier regarding bodyblocks. Im saying that there is factually enough time for a survivor to run in a straight line and reach the window or pallet with the killer being able to do nothing about it unless they mess up their routing (succeeding in their own bodyblock, while also preventing the unhooking survivor from bodyblocking their bodyblock with bodyblockception)
With 5 seconds you fell just short when making a direct approach angle, requiring some other tactic (bodyblock from the unhooker, perks like dead hard, OTR, anything) to physically have enough time to guarantee escaping the room. Now that guarantee is base, and it takes either refusing to leave in time (using the BT offensively) or letting the killer (or technically unhooker, if they
accidentallysandbag you) get in your way long enough to eat up 4 seconds of its duration. Oh and don't forget, the unhooked survivor is hasted in addition to the endurance, so they get even more distance on top.remember, this is the basement. its supposed to be arguably the hardest area of any map to escape from and be able to reset chase status. The 10 second duration is just going to turn every basement save into a benny hill skit until someone screws up, with the outcome weighted in favor of escaping rather than trapping. Why even have basements anymore?
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I don't understand your argument.
Why do you refuse to down the person who rescued the survivor from basement?
The whole point of these changes is to let survivors play the game--not trap them in an endless loop of hook -> unhook -> downed -> repeat
It feels as if you are refusing to acknowledge the multiple benefits that basement has to offer
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But my poor trapper spends 3 gens just setting up his endgame....
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Because smart people go for basement saves healthy, thus meaning they can take two hits if you don't have an instadown? autoaim making you hit the person on the hook instead of the unhooker? "just hit them twice lul" only applies if you were facecamping, which certainly doesn't dissuade people from using strategies like that. Basement is supposed to be so that the killer has an elevated chance of building or reseting their pressure that gets lost from the act of the unhook: Be it through the chokepoints in the escape path, the extended distance required to reach the hook, everything is supposed to be in the killers favor except the god pallet that is almost always present nearby (I think some maps like mothers dwelling don't have a guaranteed safe pallet right next to the stairs, but i could be wrong.)
Its saying "the killer should reasonably be able to maintain their presence, unless they either abandon the position entirely, or the survivors use a single resource" It loses a lot of that power when you can't even reasonably guarantee a hook trade in the most killer-sided position on the map, especially when its one that they have to both waste time carrying survivors there, but also can't pressure any aspects of the map without risking abandoning the basement. Ironically in a way DS is healthier for the situation because at least slugging is an option, but that stopped even being an option once again.
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You just said it yourself--smart people go for basement saves healthy.
If no one is healthy, one or two survivors now need to heal instead of repairing generators, so that they can go for the save. If only one survivor is healthy, they now need to be the designated savior, even if it is incredibly time inefficient for them to do so. Or.... they can risk going for the save while injured, and hand you a free trade--possibly 2 hooks in the basement.
How do you not see what kind of pressure this builds?!?!
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Because if nobody is injured none of that applies? If CoH is somewhere else on the map away from the basement, how are you supposed to snuff it out while also holding that position? People have been saying for ages that CoH's secondary impact on the game is far bigger than its primary one, simply because it breaks the rule of survivors needing to waste each other's time with healing while also not needing to waste their own perk slots as long as a single person brought it. Its why balance decisions always need a broader scope to see the secondary consequences of changes, and not just "thing helps me, it gud." like the majority of balance considerations on here.
You could just as easily argue that the amount of time it took them to reach the basement to make the hook cost them more gens than they could have prevented just using a normal nearby hook. You're letting specific scenarios outweigh potential variations, when the only specific scenario the opposite requires is "don't go for the unhook injured" and "nvm you dont even need to bodyblock for them anymore, just yeet yourself away with the on hit burst so they can't trade."
The only way to mitigate that is to get the first hit before the unhook, to make sure you can get the second before they escape. And guess how you make sure you can get both of those hits as someone without an instadown?
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I have never been a big DS user, because I hate the skill check and you usually still get tunneled anyway. I think it's absolute dog doodoo that this perk shuts off at end game. If you save a one time use perk until end game you should be able to use it. Even if you do the BM at the gate DS BS. It's a perk you equipped, you should be able to use it. Period.
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You must not like the concept of hex totems then. Because guaranteeing value from a perk just because you picked it has been an unrealistic expectation in DBD for ages now.
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I still don't follow you.
If you're going to proxy camp basement, than COH is irrelevant to you--you're inevitably going to hit a survivor on their way into basement, therefore enabling you to down them on their way out of basement.
If you don't managed to catch the rescuer on their way to basement, you still have the luxury of a free hit on their way out of basement--a luxury you wouldn't have been given had you hooked the survivor at say... a long wall jungle gym.
If you're not going to proxy camp basement, you still receive all the benefits I previously mentioned, as survivors should tread lightly into basement under the assumption you will return before they can make it back to the top of the steps.
If all 3 survivors are at full health when you hook someone in the basement, I would go so far as to say that you didn't have much pressure to begin with, thus you haven't earned the pressure that basement can give you. You're far better off hooking in basement only if it is the closest hook, as a hook central to the remaining generators is far more likely to award you pressure in the mid-to-late game.
In summary, basement provides you pressure not because it exists, but because you've leveraged the advantages it has to offer.
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I cant tell if you're not seeing my points due to perspective or confusion, but i don't mind trying to explain it better if you're honestly trying to follow.
1) Exactly. It means that it encourages facecamping the hook, because even proxy camping you might not see them in time before they get down the stairs. The only way to guarantee that preemptive hit is to already be in position for it. By proxy camping you are gambling that you will let someone slip past between checks. Back when healing was less accessable, basement plays took a lot more coordination and invoked a much bigger efficiency hit, now a lot of that gets mitigated both directly (healing for basement save) and indirectly (people less likely to stay injured in general, with less efficiency cost vs requiring healing from a teammate.)
2) You're saying the basement only giving you one hit is worth it because of the pressure of hooks positioned right next to strong loops? That doesn't even offset the time taken walking them to the basement in the firstplace (unless they got downed on top of it or something.) You need to consider all of the factors of the mechanic, as even just putting them down there and walking back out can cost a quarter of a gen (up to 3 individual gens) during that time. And as a bonus, stray hits are once again diluted in value due to the existence of CoH, there's a reason you rarely see hit and run playstyles anymore.
3) You get zero benefits if you are in a chase with the obsession elsewhere on the map, survivors have any aura reading perks for the situation (like empathy and kindred, part of why i promote them so much) or you have any mechanics that betray your position (like clown bottles or other global sounds) so it can be very easy to know when the killer is not fortifying their basement position. Again, it funnels back to the only way to guarantee value is to camp harder.
4) Again, CoH. Each hook stage gives plenty of time for either faster multi-survivor heals, or even 3 individual CoH self cares. And since they can then rush the basement if all 3 are healthy and create a bodyblocking clusterfuck, it stops being a positon of strength on the killer's side while they were expected to be in multiple places at once to try to prevent the situation.
5) this is mostly accurate. My issue is that 10 second bt kinda removes that leverage in all but the most extreme cases, which means you're going to see more facecamping, not less.
Its a running trend with these types of changes, every alternative that can promote more healthy killer playstyles gets nerfed instantly due to one or two killers getting too much synergy from them, so they salt the earth instead of applying sensible caps to said scenarios. The AA nerf because nurse was a monster with it is a great example in this very patch, same with the recent thana giganerf. The complaints about "how bad it could get" were absolutely valid, but both the hypocracy of the situation as well as scrapping tools entirely with hamfisted nerfs means that killers will just keep adapting to more and more "oppressive and unfun" strategies to compensate. Because their alternatives become less and less unless they flat out want to throw the game.
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Exactly the point that I keep trying to make. The double standards are absolutely insane. Survivors can't have DS or OTR at Endgame, But killers can have perks like NOED and Rancor. One side shouldn't get free wins, killers and survivors should be held to equal standards.
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I mean its an asymetrical game, so the 1 should occasionally hold power over individuals of the 4. They have considerably less safety nets in numbers alone, before even getting into assuming things like pairity between efficiency potential of their opposing objectives. Noed and Rancor are iconically good examples because Noed can be disabled before it even activates (just like second chance perks deactivating in endgame) and was even nerfed to minimize its lasting impact by telling survivors where it is, while Rancor gives you an entire game's worth of notification its going to be an issue in endgame so you can prepare accordingly.
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My differening perspective and/or confusion stems from reading your woes about basement as symptoms of your woes over other game mechanics, namely Circle of Healing.
Putting a survivor in the basement is not always the best decision and, if this game is to have any amount of variable strategy, it should not always be the best decision. The value you get out of basement comes down to how you play around it--not whether or not you managed to hook someone there--and that is how it should remain.
Basement is Maslow's Hammer--"if the only tool you have is a hammer, it is tempting to treat everything as if it were a nail."
If you're not a killer who can adequately pressure basement, without sacrificing map pressure elsewhere, don't expect it to get the job done.
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Well yeah, they're kinda related. CoH had more impact on playstyles than even DS, and it continues to do so since they only do numbers adjustments instead of adjusting how far its impact actually reaches. I understand that the basement is not always the best decision, but I also understand that this change has diluted a major part of its strength. And you're right, its value comes from how you play around it, to which i say "this will have the opposite effect of discouraging camping, because it made that the only way to guarantee value from your investment."
I don't argue for wanting my side to have an advantage, hell i barely play killer. I just acknowledge that pidgeonholing killer strategies doesn't "fix" problems like this, it only makes people double down and decreases the value of matches for everyone. If they started working on more ways to encourage killers not to camp/tunnel instead of trying to find new ways to slap their wrists about it, we might have had a healthy game start forming a long time ago.
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Why you just again declare it free kills? How could it be a free kill, when you have to DO things to kill a survivor? While DS still just push the space in good time.
Anti tunnel perks is not for keeping alive the survivor, it is to prevent kill them way too fast. In endgame the killer cannot "tunnel" cause at that point there is nothing else to do, but down them and hook them.
And meanwhile yeah, noed should be basekit it would be the worst option. Because survivors can prevent it from activating with removing all the totems. But they rarely do it. But if it would be basekit, survivors would know they HAVE TO remove all totems. So it would be basekit, but in most matches it wouldn't activate at all.
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TBH if Noed was basekit, that would lead to even more problems, like hurting boons while buffing pentimento. As much as I think CoH should be nerfed, attacking boons directly turns the other ones from "not very strong" to "gutter trash." Balancing should never really be about removing healthy elements to either side, just fixing unhealthy ones.
Now, if certain situations started having more risks associated to them....
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If they started working on more ways to encourage killers not to camp/tunnel instead of trying to find new ways to slap their wrists about it
I've experienced far too many games where the killer clearly does not need to camp/tunnel to win, yet opts to do so anyway, to believe incentives are a healthy solution. I've seen this especially since patch 6.1.0.
Amidst the height of survivors disconnecting, I'm being subjected to far too many games in which the killer camps and tunnels one survivor at 4-5 gens, even tho another player has already disconnected. If incentives were enough, we would not be seeing this type of behavior from killers.
This road definitely goes both ways, however.
Boon: Circle of Healing has had a negative ripple effect on the game. It squandered many potentially viable playstyles by offering convenient and quick healing to all survivors at an extremely low cost, with little to no consequence.
BHVR needs to slap survivors' wrists when they play recklessly, instead of just encouraging them to be efficient.
Over the past 2 years, I don't really feel as though the core player base has grown in their understanding of DBD, because BHVR continues to provide these avenues to mitigate reckless decision making and inexperience.
Patrick's quote of "don't you wish you could do all that, and sometimes get out alive?" perfectly embodies this mentality from the devs, as they've shifted their focus towards giving the people what they want rather than what they need.
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Your anecdotes are not even a fraction of the userbase. None of ours are. They don't account for different regions, different timezones, different MMRs, you have to take them with the biggest grain of salt. For all the times you never see it, there are streamers who will actively call out every single situation where their hand gets forced. Its always important to assume that our individual experiences are only a piece of the puzzle.
The incentives simply are never enough, and they keep getting diminished. Even BBQ/WGLF losing their aura reading hurt going for new survivors rather than camping, because many killers were so focused on taking it for the grind that "they already had it, might as well use its other effect." Now the reason people take it got removed, so the secondary effect's influence is gone. If they removed some of its thousand counterplays we might actually see it again, but the AA nerf due to nurse is more proof that they flat out do not care about incentivizing that type of direction when it will cause survivors to complain more. (for the record, I think the nurse synergy absolutely needed to be addressed, but the lazy way they handled it ruined an incentive opportunity. Exact repeat of the Thana situation.)
I absolutely agree that the same should be applied to survivors as well, more incentives for less efficient play. It kinda feels like thats the direction they went with how absolutely awful some of the challenges in the rifts are, basically forcing you to sandbag yourself for some extra BP and progress. If that was actually their reasoning, its the right idea but terrible execution.
For a while now I've been strongly of the stance that the efficiency cap dilemma is the biggest cause of a lot of these problems, and addressing it would fix things for both sides in a lot of other ways. Survivors simply start too strong and lose too much power with each interaction, turning survivor early game into "maximizing as much damage as possible" and killer side "maximum damage control, while attempting to start progress." Then the late game for survivor becomes "we dont have enough people, i cant do all these things at once" and for killer it becomes "I have plenty of time for these longer chases."
The unfortunate thing is that survivors will complain that the killer is stronger early, while ignoring the fact that they stay stronger and things get less hopeless as the killer gains momentum. Likewise, killers will complain that they have to work harder continuously through the match rather than work hard at the start and then relax the rest of the way. Nobody will ever be happy as long as they put their perspective above healthy balance.
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Nobody will ever be happy as long as they put their perspective above healthy balance
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If the game was actually balanced killers wouldn’t have to camp or tunnel.
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And yet they would anyway without proper tools to encourage alternative playstyles and punish those.
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This is 100% the case. There have always been a certain number of gamers that love camping for whatever reason. It's like when you lose a game of domination in CoD because your teammate is sitting somewhere with grenade launchers etc padding their KD instead of playing for the objective. The game has to encourage them to not camp or highly discourage them from camping if you want it to stop.
As for the original topic there shouldn't be free kills or escapes. If the survivors are all alive and not on death hook it shouldn't be too hard for them to save their teammates and escape unless they make mistakes or the killer plays exceptionally well. If one or more survivors are dead, it should be very hard for them to save and escape. It should all depend on how the game went beforehand. You could argue that certain perks (eg. DS/NOED) ruin this.
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They would be some outliers, but the majority wouldn’t be forced to tunnel anymore. Map size, gen/pallet positioning, and god loops. Has made average chases for m1 killers last up to 1-2 mins against a well organized 4 man swf at high mmr. That could mean 3 gens done within that chase if you decide to commit. This pressures most if not all killers into finding the weakest link and tunneling them out to make the team easier to deal with. Camping on the other hand is also a strategy, but has massive downsides being loosing gens in the process.
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Sure maybe low mmr ppl camp because they don’t know any better. But back in the day if you camped that costed you the game. If your team is smart they’ll focus on gens rather than help the survivor.
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Asymmetrical doesn’t mean one side is guaranteed victory over the other. Killers do have benefits over survivors—killers are faster and can incapacitate survivors. That is the “power” they hold over survivors. Killers should not however be able to completely subjugate survivors because they’re faster and can incapacitate survivors. This isn’t a murder simulator; it’s an interactive multiplayer game.
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