10 second BT isn't the right fix
Title. 10 second free BT is not the right solution to camping and tunneling. It's clunky and unintuitive, feels silly with endurance perks, and can be abused by swfs to get free bodyblocks.
Killers camp and tunnel because unhook scenarios favor them. Why patrol gens when survivors have to serve themselves up to you, often in a weak area, to get unhooks? Killers should be incentivized to be near gens, not hooks.
So, let's reduce the unhook animation and extend the hook timer. Also, action indicators that show what survivors are doing would be fantastic for solo players. Maybe a stretch, but how about a limited preset chat wheel with basic messages like "The killer is near me," "The killer left me," and of course: "Do #$^@&#% gens" (perhaps worded a tad more politely).
Comments
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I personally find it funny that they labelled it "camping and tunneling" in the patch notes but it really only affects tunneling and proxy camping, nothing about face camping which i would say is the worse issue. Maybe not on a wide enough scale but it always guarantees a hook trade.
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If they really cared about camping they'd get rid of hook grabs.
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Exactly, and they don't. Because unhooking should have counterplay. It is one of the signs that they DO understand game design better than your average forum goer.
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Yep.
It's a Catch 22. They know camping pisses off a large portion of the player base. Even maybe pushing them away from the game (Solo survivors).
At the same time, they also know many Killers depend on camping (for whatever reasons, not all to be a-holes, sometimes if they're new, or at endgame, etc). So if they killed it completely, probably afraid of the consequences.
So we get lots and lots of bandaids! Then they nerf them and make NEW bandaids.
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Well it does nerf camping indirectly, but only barely.
I do think that if survivors manage to trade hooks often enough, they can still win by getting at least 3 survivors out. That's also one of the reasons I really want hook grabs removed. It's such an outdated mechanic.
Add to that an hook phase duration increase from 60 to 70 seconds, and I think that would be a good first nerf to camping. It would surely balance out the queue times again.
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The suggestions you are making are more nerfs to camping than tunneling. Inrceasing the hook phase duration would mainly nerf camping, as killer would have to camp longer for the survivor to be sacrificed.
I definitely think that each hook phase duration should be increased from 60 to 70 seconds. I would also love to see the unhook animations have their duration reduced a bit, but I think far more important would be to remove hook grabs. That is an absolute must in my opinion.
I do think that the nerf to tunneling is good at the moment. Survivors need this big time. Maybe there could be better solutions down the line, but survivors being able to take an extra hit after being unhooked for a long enough duration is very good in my opinion. I also don't think it's bad that survivors can bodyblock with it. It just discourages the killer a bit more to stay near hooked survivors, or return to them immediately after they have been unhooked. And if they bodyblock, they are free to be tunneled again.
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How exactly would removing hook grabs make unhooking uncounterable? You can still just down the unhooker, but you can't prevent the unhook from happening as easily anymore. Which is a good thing. Because in 98% of all cases, this only ever benefits camping killers.
So I think removing hook grabs is a must. That and increasing the hook phase duration a bit, from 60 to 70 seconds.
Also, killers are in a better place than they have ever been. They really don't need to camp and tunnel nearly as much anymore to have a chance to win. Sure, there are still situations where that can be necessary. If you are on a very survivor sided map, or sometimes when you are playing a low tier killer. But this game can't be balanced around the worst case scenarios for killers. Instead, bad maps or low tier killers need to be addressed seperately.
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You can thank the same swf groups for all of these killer and endurance buffs. Unfortunately you can't even add proximity chat to the game because swf dunderheads will still use Discord.
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Remember why this change was added, everyone continues to forget that before, you had to BRING bt to stand any chance against someone camping, and It was your fault for not bringing it, in a way forcing a meta to be formed because if you didn't have it you were a jerk. this is the solution, it's not clunky, it does its job and the stats show that
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@SgtMittens ...you can't seriously be mad at people using discord, like my bad let me just not hang out with my friends, oh how fun :| what
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I completely agree with you and would love to see hook grabs removed. I was trying to say that BHVR possibly doesn't want to truly remove camping for business reasons
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Perks only soften, if killer dedicated to do so, they will do. Reassurance only make camping useless, doesnt mean camping will not exist anymore. If killer wants to camp, they will.
The big part of complaining on tunneling & camping is, it makes the game not fun for the targeted survivors. Even if Reassurance as basekit, its still doesnt fun for the camped survivors, it only helps to punish the campers
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The time isn't the issue it's the fact they can body block you remove the collision and it should be fine
This dosent punish the killer if they aren't tunneling and will if they are
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That is true. But right now huge amount of killers camp/tunnel. Because it is easy to do and because it is very strong.
So in order for most killers to stop doing it you need to make it harder to do (by e.g. removing hook grabs) and/or making it less rewarding (e.g. reassurence perk).
You will not cover 100%, but you don't need to. If you lower camp/tunnel from 50% of all games in some MMR brackets to 3%, then you solve the problem in eyes of most survivors.
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We thought tunnel/camp happens because its effective tactic, which it does. Devs try to soften by making tunnel/camp less effective.
But most of us dont know that there are people play the game only to be toxic on other players as possible.
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Who said anything about being mad? It's a statement of fact, not an indictment on your inability to play a game by yourself.
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Yes. You don't really need to try to solve those toxic cases as they are rare (in comparison) and there are more pressing issues. Just fix the efficiency and that would be enough
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Mhm, hook grabs make no sense. But in all fairness they make just as much sense as the awful grab validation which more often than not messes you up since it can deny hits entirely. This game does have a lot of issues with it tbh.
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Camping and tunneling are related problems. Most hard tunneling occurs when the killer is face camping or proxy camping the hook as the unhook happens.
Thus, they are in prime position to chase the unhooked survivor. Aka tunneling.
Extending the hook timer and reducing the unhook animation frames discourage camping, and by extension, tunneling.
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I agree with you. This would improve the situation by fixing some of the current clunkyness. I just figure why stop there? Might as well tackle the root problems that make 10 second safety so necessary to begin with.
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You're right that basekit BT helped to reduce usage rates of actual BT, so if that was the goal, the devs accomplished it with flying colors.
But now survivors are forced to run perks like OtR and soon Reassurance instead, so frankly, gameplay is still pretty similar.
I don't know what the stats say, but if the devs think going to 10 second BT is necessary, the stats must indicate that camping and tunneling are big issues. I'm just suggesting we tackle the roots of the problem.
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10 seconds is fine. it's not enough to completely dicentivise tunneling but it's definitely better than 5.
the biggest issue right now is the lack of a proper ping system to tell your teammates if a killer is camping or not. at least then a team could play around it and maybe get a 3 man escape.
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it's better than nothing, just need to buff DS now because current version is pitiful
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i think the problem is facecamping and solo queue. even if you take kindred, people will still flock to you and depending on the killer they can easily mop up. I don't get that bothered by camping itself it's just horrible seeing it work so often just because people don't wanna do gens instead
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What's a Killer to do when quick unhooks are happening and Gens are getting done
Base Gen regression is so low that kicking Gens don't do that much
Chasing another survivor causes a 3rd Survivor to go for the save
plus Survivors still don't leave the Camped Survivor alone for any more then 10 seconds (or they will leave them till death while the Killer is chasing a Survivor)
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yeah, but you said dunderheads, implying that yknow, it's an indictment on your inability to play a game by yourself. you emotionally stated an opinion, and slanderous complained about the people who use comms yknow people like to have fun btw...
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well increasing the bt to 10 seconds is pretty similar to running OtR right? it's not just as long but it accomplishes that goal as well, OtRs main function is actually suppressing your groans of pain, so it's actually a really effective replacement for the iron will nerf
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No, 10 sec it's good! I would even increase it to 15, but at least 20 xD
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face camping is hard countered by holding m1 and letting the person being facecamped die while they land their skill checks for 60+ seconds (the + is for if kinship is in the picture)
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Yeah I agree the hook graps are very inconsistent too you might get grapped even if you stopped unhooking. Also I've been lately getting lot of grabs after the unhooking has already happened. Not that I usually camp but some survivors run to do unhook while I chase them.
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Very true, 10 second BT is too much. It just leans in the direction of giving survivors more and more ways of safely unhooking another survivor with the risks negated that isn't via a perk.
Its as I said before. There isn't anything wrong the the killer re-downing the unhooked survivor.
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It used to be, but not anymore. A killer can face camp 2 survivors minimum to death easily. Gens now take 10 seconds longer, and you can use Deadlock to slow down the gens even more without actually having to do anything. Slap on No way out, NOED and STBFL (if you're not playing an insta-down killer) and you can also secure 1 more kill maybe more in the endgame. Requires barely any effort or skill.
Kinship is not a good argument either since it heavily relies on your being a SWF. Reassurance will help now, however it got gutted slightly for Solo players (seriously solo cant catch a break).
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Not if they have stuff like deadlock, then they get enough slowdown to find someone else easily. Also solo-queue. Also having to sit on the hook as the optimal way to go about it is boring and flawed design.
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