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Old Hatch & Key
I’d love for the devs to bring back the old hatch and key system. If killers are allowed to kill however they want (slug, tunnel, camp) survivors solid be able to survive however they want and that should include a hatch escape with 2 or 1 gen left remaining to be done. Why should survivor’s be policed in how they play and survive while face camping (looking at you Bubba) is allowed to be a tactic? Face camping used to be easily countered or punished with the 2 or 3 survivors escaping via hatch but now solo survivors can no longer legitimately punish a camping killer with gens taking 10 extra charges to be done. I don’t care if killers camp and tunnel as long survivors have multiple exit strategies that are involved in a match.
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Agree with this sentiment. Remove hatch offerings to keep it RNG, and revert the spawn conditions for it. I would settle for keys only allowing one person to escape too, but don’t see why it can’t allow multiple.
Just make ultra rare stuff actually ultra rare, and we’re good.
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Disagree.
Keys were dumb.
Being able to simply say, "You, you don't get to play anymore" is also dumb.
Let's get rid of the dumb stuff, yeah?
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I'm glad that old keys are gone. There wasn't any real counterplay for the killer if they didn't bring old Franklin's and made the key dissolve on the ground early on in the game. The counterplay they did have was to slug or otherwise be supernasty.
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And this is exactly what killers do when you camp on first hook w 5 gens needing to be done. At least with 2 or 1 gen left the killer was able to hook and kill 1 to 3 survivors and actually got to play a game. Getting face camped before you touch a gen is literally not even getting a chance to play the match. Key and random hatch placement was a legitimate strategy for survivors before the devs took it away. Survivors have had their survival strategies wheedled down to either be toxic w flashlights and lockers and 2-3 good loops per map that won’t last once the pallets are gone. And your SOL if you have killers who can camp loops for downs (Sudako & company).
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I know it's frustrating being camped, but it's the survivor's fault for being downed with 5 gens remaining.
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It’s not even frustrating I just want other escape routes for whomever remains in the trial. If you want to face camp fine but don’t be mad when everyone slides out the match via hatch. Killers and survivors all have consequences to their actions. I think the devs taking away the hatch spawn and nerfing keys took away another survival strategy which should be brought back to bring some balance.
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Actually I remember the counter to old keys now. It was to bring an Ebony Mori and back then you only needed to hook a survivor once to mori them.
One broken overpowered thing had to be used to counter another broken overpowered thing.
Well unless the survivors brought old Styptics and Needles as well which were instaheals back then too.
So many games where the killer got a 1K and the survivors let that survivor die just so they could cheese it out the hatch with a key instead of getting that last gen done.
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Aaahhh yes the good old days (sarcasm). I get the sentiment of only getting 1K. Hear me out tho….now with having to do all 5 gens killers are now guaranteed at least a 2K if they are face camping at the very start of the match. I doesn’t even matter about the face camping I’m just saying what’s good for the goose should be good for the gander in terms of strategies on both sides of the game. If killers can face camp, slug, and tunnel to kill why can’t survivors employ every strategy to survive?
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Bringing back old keys and hatch mechanics is not the right approach.
They need to give killers good incentives to leave the hook. Like old BBQ & Chili or the old Pain Resonance notification. They took away the good incentives for killers to leave the hook and now you see more camping. It's a natural evolution of gameplay brought on by BHVR's own bad decisions.
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Make Your Choice
BBQ & Chili
Pop
Pain Resonance (even without it) were all good incentives to leave hook and apply gen pressure and get downs. Camping has always been a part of the game and will always be. I’m just saying old hatch and key made killers have consequences that were tangible for doing it at 5 gens bc they weren’t necessarily guaranteed another kill bc survivors could escape with 3-4 gens done. Now the killers can camp with no consequence bc once the game is 3v1 the odds are considerably in the killers favor for a 4K.
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That's not really true.
Camping is too rewarding at this point. There's plenty of reasons to leave and at this stage, I am ready to start discussing punishments rather than encouragements, because it's clear that isn't gonna work.
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What is your point here?
If the old hatch & key mechanic were still in the game would it magically make the game better for survivors?
Or would that Clown who likes to run Party Bottles (me) swap out the Party Bottles for nastier addons like maybe a Pinky Finger whenever they see a key in their lobby? (I would.)
I don't think bringing back the old hatch & key mechanic would have a positive effect on the game in any way.
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The nerf to Hatch was good & healthy for the game. Even though I had a lot of fun with it over the years, it needed to go. I would take it even a step further and remove hatch offerings and leave it up to pure RnG.
One thing they should revert though is requiring there to be a pause/meter when opening a locked hatch with a key. That was a bit much. It should be instant like before.
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There aren't any encouragements to leave the hook anymore so it's more prevalent now and that's a problem.
They took away the carrot and you just want to give killers more stick?
If there is no incentive for killers to give a survivors a fair game, why should they?
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They can’t balance the game around individual killers or their add one (hello nurse). Bringing back the old hatch and key would be a punishment for face camping at gen 5. As the game stands killers have stated repeatedly their game gets easier when they wheedle down the survivors to 3 v1. Survivors need more than “just do gens” strategy once you get down to 3v1 especially when you are in early game with 4-5 gens needing to be done. Adding back old hatch/key would bring additional strategy to the survivor side. If killers want to face camp fine and they should have consequences other than a 4k being the outcome.
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Yes good and healthy when D strike and Dead Hard were actually worth carrying. Back when pallets and missed hits gave the survivor back some time. Now both of those perks aren’t worth bringing anymore and the survivors don’t have nearly the same amount of time in chase even with good looping and mind gaming. I say the game could use more strategy on the survivor side besides just doing 5 gens.
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Keys don't just punish killers. They open a stupid cheesy strategy for survivors and I'm glad it's gone. Earn that escape.
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DH nerfed.
DS nerfed.
Survivors speed boost on hit nerfed.
Killer attack cooldown buffed.
Killer break speed buff.
Gen speed nerf.
Overcharge buff.
Eruption buff.
There's a couple of great incentives. There are situations where you should camp, EGC or a 3-gen come to mind.
However, you don't need to camp the first person you see. If a player still can't win chases, it's on them. Killers have been given plenty of carrots and now I think it's time to test a stick.
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Survivors have the whole map with a lot of god pallets and windows to prevent them from being downed at 5 gens, at the start of the match.
Why should the killer be punished by the survivors poor performance? It doesn't make sense.
If the killer wants to win, he must camp at that scenario.
Old hatch/key used to punish all killers, including the ones that didn't face camp at 5 gens.
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Okay, bring back the old key system...and the no or one hook moris.
No? didn't think so.
Multiple survs just being able to dip with multiple gens left was exceptionally unhealthy.
DH is still very much worth bringing, you actually need a shred of skill to get value out of it now. A trained monkey could get value out of old DH.
The DS stun duration nerf was pretty pretty egregious, though.
I don't disagree (I hate facecampers), but the question remains: what would the stick be? There has been discussion about this for ages, but no one has come up with a solution that isn't game breaking. Everyone knows it needs to be addressed, but question of how has yet to be answered.
I just see it as a player problem with no apparent game design solution, unfortunately. Like tunneling, if a killer is willing to throw the game to camp their first hook out, what can you really do?
At a certain point, it just boils down to people needing to be decent, because you just can't just brute force some things.
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Old hatch didn’t even work that way. Five generators had to be repaired for all four survivors to hatch escape. Otherwise survivors had to die, and gens still needed to get done.
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Now lets flip the coin and and say the key and hatch comes back then the moris will have to come back and after hooking survivors once, some killers have next to no map pressure or anti loop skills so moris will now be punishment for gen rushing when vs a killer with no map pressure or anti loop. Both changes to moris and key/hatch was needed to make it more of a balanced game.
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True, let me correct myself: multiple survs shouldn't be able to escape with gens left. There was nothing okay about the old system.
And having the old hatch in play incentivized tunneling even more. I know a lot people who saw a key in lobby and tunneled out the person carrying it, and in that instance I didn't really see an issue with it.
The old key/hatch system needs to stay in the bin.
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Those are buffs not incentives. There is actually more incentive to camp now than before because those buffs make camping even more rewarding.
Killers need information immediately after hooking a survivor.
- The only perk that directly does that now (and for a long time before Pain Res) is BBQ & Chili, usually giving the killer a target(s) 40 metres away from the hook. Without the bonuses though, BBQ gets ran less (far less?) often than before. Before 6.1.0 I ran BBQ on every killer every game and I haven't ran it on anyone but Huntress since. STBFL filled it's slot and I am a lot nastier without my stacks. I am still mad about losing them. BBQ used to be the best perk for the game. It gave killers another objective besides KILL!
- Pain Resonance before 6.1.0 used to give a notification on the most progressed generator which was also was a great perk to get killers away from the hook.
Now killers often are left in an information vacuum when they hook a survivor. They are more likely to camp. They are more likely to return to the hook after checking nearby gens and not finding a target.
I know because I am ######### guilty. Guiltier than than the Entity.
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With the way the current setup survivors are not guaranteed 2 or 3 hooks which makes Moris a mute issue for me. Face camping means you literally don’t get off your first hook ever. Moris do not need to be buffed because killers have had many perks and movement buff. Along with plenty of survivor perks being nerfed.
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Nah. I'm not sad that's a thing of the past, though I do have some fond memories. It was always nice when playing solo and other survivors would come and find you to join them for a hatch escape
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And just because the Key Holder got tunneled out doesn’t mean the key left. Many of times survivors could poach a key and use it to escape at 2-3 gens remaining on map. Killers are going to face camp and tunnel period that’s a game mechanic. However it shouldn’t be without a threat of others escaping due to luck and strategy.
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There were killers who only tunneled keyholders; the old system incentivized more tunneling. It was viewed, often justifiably, as just a way to escape without earning it, and invited toxic killer behavior.
The same way no hook or one hook moris did. If you bring back one, you better bring back the other; they were two sides of the same BS coin.
But this is all academic I think. I would guess this is one of the last changes BHVR would ever revert. It was too contentious.
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Old hatch mechanics was survivors escaping without completing their objectives.
Camping is the killer fastracking their objective.
They are not the same.
The survivor still got found, downed and hooked, which is the killers objective loop.
How many times does it need to be said that survivors are not entitled to every hook state. The game isn't "get hooked twice but not three times." You're supposed to avoid getting hooked entirely.
There are counters to camping, and there is more they can do to make camping more costly for killers. Thats what they need to do.
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Last time I checked with old hatch and key you had to complete 3 gens in order for hatch to spawn w 2 survivors alive or do all or 2 gens with 1 survivor left alive. Doing gens is apart of the survivors objective and you had to earn the hatch to spawn by doing gens and participating in the game. Again my beef isn’t with camping or tunneling it’s giving survivors options outside of “just do gens” when you are left in a 3v1 gameplay early in the game (often by face camping). Survivors need more escape options as a 3v1 is just a 4K waiting to happen and everyone knows the game gets stalled on the survivor side once that 3v1 wall is hit and progresses very fast on the killer side. This game is about strategy and taking options (on killing or surviving) away from either side has left this game feeling like a ghost of what it was 2 years ago, at least from my limited survivor perspective.
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Uou hide in a corner. Your team mates do 3 gens and get themselves found by the killer for it. You get to escape for free.
Sorry no, I don't agree.
It was absolutely hopeless as a killer when you're in the middle of a game, still defending gens, when suddenly the game just ends because the remaining survivors found the hatch. There is no counter to that.
More escape options are find, but you make it available after the exit gates are powered.
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And your saying none of the killer perks got nerfed and that only survivor perks got nerfed survivors got BT put into basekit but that must of been a nerf, Face camping has nothing to do with old hatch and keys and how broken it was same as moris which is why they changed them both. Not every player will face camp and not every killer can face camp well like Bubba you can't bring back one without bringing back the other as both work on the same principals they both can end the match early.
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You mention one scenario. You already have survivors urban around the map not doing gens and hiding in lockers. A key isn’t going to change that aspect of toxicity. I’m just providing one option for games that are 3v1 from the first 3 min of game play maybe less if the person kills themselves or DC’s. Survivors stuck in a 3v1 should have some hope of escaping. Devs cannot balance around every scenario good or bad
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The only reason I want old hatch/key back in the game is because the devs keep putting hatch challenges in the Tomes. Hatch escapes are null for MMR so may as well bring it back and make those challenges less annoying to complete. Just keep the unlock animation so it's not instantly opened and make it so a key only works for one survivor - added bonus bring back the hatch grab for anyone trying to escape with a key. Would be nice as killer to find the hatch mid game so I know where it is when I have "close hatch" challenges.
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Old hatch and key would implement a new option for survivors stuck in a 3v1 gameplay other then just doing gens. It would give some incentive to continue to play reasonably to get enough gens done to at least get hatch to spawn and give the killer another point of pressure. Once the game gets down to 3v1 it stalls on the survivor side and progresses very fast on the Killer side. There needs to be a balance to this.
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What happens when the survivors 3 gen themselves its pretty much the middle finger to the killer and a escape they didn't earn, some killers need to plan for a 3 gen, survivors 3 gen themselves why should they be rewarded for messing up and putting themselves in that hard spot.
Games like this will never be fully balanced no matter what they put in place if the killer gets a early kill then it's 3 vs 1 making it harder on survivors but then if survivors get 3-4 gens done and killer has only got a couple hooks then it leans towards the survivors.
One example is F13th game in a 20 min match the first 10min the counselors have a bit of a upper hand as they can fight back but when it its 10 min max the power balance swaps and only a few things will stun him at that point. So for the first 10 min its a race to get out and as more people get killed the harder it becomes
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I understand the concept of a 3 gen and it’s a strategy that Killers can use to help them win. It doesn’t always work but can work when used effectively. A 3v1 early in a game w 5 gens to be done has historically favored the killer with no counter. The Killer makes that choice to tip the balance in their favor for a 3v1. A 3 gen occurs by survivors shooting themselves in the foot and having little to no map awareness. And even with a 3 gen survivors can counter with teaming up on gens and getting maximum spread between the last 2 gens. And survivors who gen rush can get shot in the foot with NOED or even Blood Warden if they aren’t careful. Again there is the potential to balance things out. It just seems to me having g a 3v1 at. 5-4 gens heavily rips the scales to the Killer whereas a 3v1 with 3-2 gens is still anyone’s game. I feel like both sides should have the suspense of not knowing who’s going to survive as long as possible. With old hatch/key yeah sometimes the game ended early, sometimes all gens got done and exit gates got powered up but what didn’t happen was a Killer knowing they had won with only 1-2 gens popped. And with old hatch/key survivors still had to traverse the map to find the hatch, giving opportunity to be chased and hooked.
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Yea but I don't like when 2 gens get done then there's a 4man escape before I could really play any strategy....old hatch was a bad concept. Asany said the old method promoted tunneling even more because of the threat of a Key in the match.
Now if I see a Key I don't worry about it until they may be the last survivor and can take care of them when it's just two survivors left
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Old hatch never spawned with 4 survivors in the game unless ALL gens were done. If it spawned with 2 gens left at least 1 survivor was dead already. You’d at least get a kill.
And I don’t like it when a survivor is dead with only 1 gen being done because 1 survivor spent the time looking for a totem and setting boon and the other was hiding while the other was chased and placed on hook and I was on the gen (and that doesn’t include gens being knocked down bc of Jolt, Eruption, or any other gen disruption).
Once the game is down to 3v1 the game stalls on the survivor side and progresses fast on the Killer side (even without camping or tunneling accounted for).
Amd Killers Will tunnel no matter what, the Key only gave the Killer someone to focus on from the start and not a random survivor. If anything the survivor with the Key would be more stealthy and the Killer may waste time looking for them. It all comes down to choices and consequences.
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Two survivors would have been dead, actually. The spawn condition before they nerfed hatch into oblivion was that the number of generators fully repaired had to be greater than the number of survivors still alive by 1.
Three gens complete, hatch spawns when only two survivors are left alive; four gens done, once one survivor dies; then lastly, it would spawn if everyone was still alive and five generators were repaired.
Edit: And of course just like today, it always spawned open no matter what when only one survivor was left, regardless of generators repaired.
Post edited by GoshJosh on0 -
agreed. Same for bubba facecamp post patch 6.1. Like old hatch/key were bad - don't take me wrong. It was unfair. So is this camping.
But to be constructive... Please remove keys from game altogether. After this nerf, they are practically worse then if they were not in game (they are basically blocking chests).
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Or older Franklin's. Just watch the Key dissolve into nothing
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No, bad idea.
SWFs "let's make 4 gens really fast (and now survs have hyper focus and others gen rush perks) and one of us ######### on hook, and we scape make the killer frustrating even if he don't tunnel or camping."
This is a thing that happen a lot with old keys and hatch.
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No way, old hatch and keys were the most broken thing ever in DBD. Nothing can top that.
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Not even moris on first down, or Brand New Parts instantly repairing a generator to full?
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I don't agree that the old system needs to return, but I do think the hatch needs reviewing, as it stands as they said they planned to do so when it was initially nerfed and never did.
The current system doesn't work as killers are finding it so quickly and keys are becoming pointless because you know if its closed its likely you won't find it.
I would make one of two changes, either:
Base kit left behind for CLOSED hatches only - the hatch is highlighted in red when the survivor comes within 'x' metres of it after being closed by the killer.
Or;
Partial reversion to the old system; the hatch spawns when 'x' amount of generators have been completed, but the key only grants escape to one survivor.
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Okay yeah those were worse lol.
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New hatch is still this. The argument you're making that survivors MUST complete their objective is an argument to remove hatch altogether. That would definitely be bad for the game. Old keys should come back and if 1 survivor dies with no gens completed hatch should spawn.
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Genuine question for anyone who cares to respond, including OP. With the new MMR system, escaping via the hatch doesn't count as a "win." If BHVR brought back old keys and hatch mechanics, would you be okay with it if the MMR system continued to not count that as an escape?
For some people, I suspect the answer is no. For others, the thrill of not getting hooked and leaving via the hatch is motive enough. Some Killers might also have different opinions. If they aren't negatively impacted pip-wise (or perhaps even BP-wise) by hatch escapes, would it be a problem?
Is the hatch issue more about pips/points, or just about how the game ends?
For more context:
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I’d say in this scenario doing 4 gens really fast won’t happen in the current game setting especially with the buff to regression perks AND if it did happen that 4 team SWF obviously outplayed the Killer to get 4 gens done in a short amount of time and more than likely would get a the last gen done so Hatch wouldn’t really change anything in terms of them getting out alive.
Again balancing the game around SWFs will hose solo Q survivors which is whole different rabbit hole I won’t go down in this thread.
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