Killer should be harder. Period.
I'm baffled at how BHVR and people in the community think the current stats are okay. Here's my 2 cents on why 6.1.0 was not very good and this is unhealthy. This thread is a bunch of talking points on why the currents stats do,indeed show and point towards this game being killer-sided at the moment & why it shouldn't be.
Frustration & Stress In Killer Gameplay:
Killer should be harder than survivor and more stressful. That's okay and you should not make the game killer sided to stop that from happening - that's the nature of an assymetrical game. If you dont want to be stressed - play the role that has less input on the match from you as an individual. The current killrate is way too high. This game's issues were certain Killers,Perks and Maps. Not baseline buffs and nerfs.
If Trapper can't win on Cowshed vs a 4-man SWF - nerf Cowshed and buff trapper. Don't buff all Killers, ######### over the weakest and most popular role in the game - solo queue - at the same time.
MAH POWER ROLE! MAH HORROR GAME:
This has not been a horror game for a while now. It's an assymetrical 1v4 game with some horror elements. The horror aspect of this game is gone for 99% of players when they play enough of this game and start thinking about the gameplay part of the game and focus even a bit on the chase. FOR GOD'S SAKE YOU HAVE AN EDGY COMIC BOOK VILLAIN WITH A NAME SOUNDING LIKE A CATFOOD BRAND DROPPING CHEESY ONE-LINERS AS DAVID DABS ON HIM.
About you,dear killer players,really wanting to be the power role. There should not be a power role in a multiplayer game,period. This is supposed to be an asym multiplayer experience where 4 survivors working together are about equal to the Killer and whoever is playing better comes out on top. Power role experience of murdering a bunch of helpless survivors belong in singleplayer games.
BUT THE STATS ARE SKEWED - SWF ARE STILL WRECKING KILLERS:
I'll be real with you. Not really,they don't. The times where I get wrecked as Killer this patch is when I make tons of mistakes,get a really terrible map or survivors bring the most busted #########. Usually it's a result of all of the above and mostly my fault.
You're not getting destroyed because you're facing comp 4-man squads. Not even because you're facing really good 4-mans all the time. You're just making mistakes and the other side is capitalizing on them with their strong loadouts. The negative experiences Killers are facing are very often their own fault and then they're not,they're addressed by nerfing maps,certain items/addons & perks.
Is it worth compromising the majority of the playerbase's experience just because some Killers want to feel a power fantasy and not hone their craft? I don't think so.
There's still a power disbalance,though:
Correct. There is. Here's how we address the current issues:
- Buff Solo Queue players by giving them baseline Kindred and baseline Kindred for when people are slugged for longer than 16 seconds.
- Significant nerfs to medkits. They're way too strong. Brown medkits should be at 0,5x speed and Green Medkits should be at 1,25x speed at most.
- Overperforming maps should be looked at - Cowshed/Springwood/Garden of Joy - all of these maps need nerfs,they're substantially skewing the results of all games in DBD.
- Nurse needs to be significantly nerfed - she brings an infinite myriad of issues,not only ignoring any survivor skill and bringing the game down to "Is The Nurse going to ######### up or not" and making perk design problematic with dozens of perks needing to be nerfed due to her.
- Buff & Rework the most underperforming Killers,especially those without much of a chase power,or those countered by information sharing between survivors. E.G Hag,Sadako,Myers,Trapper.
- Revert the baseline cooldown & speed burst changes. - those are really,really bad and should be reverted.
- All maps should be smaller. There should be no map as large as Shelter Woods & Red Forest.
- DS should be brought to 4 seconds,with it disabling Killer power usage for 6 seconds and active on both hooks.
- A nerfed version of Corrupt Intervention blocking two gens for 30 seconds or until a survivor is downed should be introduced basekit.
CLOSING REMARKS:
The 6.1.0 patch was a respectable attempt at balancing the game. It really was. However in responding to valid pain points by Killer players - Maps,Spawns,Perks & Items. Circle Of Healing,Dead Hard,Medkits,BNPS and Cowshed 1v1s were and still are undeniably frustrating. However instead of addressing pain points directly,BHVR has addressed them by machine gunning the whole game into being Killer-Sided,with occasional SWF squads screwing over Killer players unprepared for strong loadouts due to either not running them themselves or playing Trapper.
Wanting this game to not be a 50% split between kills and esapes is unhealthy. This isn't a story mode or a singleplayer game. It's a multiplayer game - you should try to give everyone an equal chance. The top 0.01% of MMR players being able to loop a 1600 MMR Bubba is okay. It shouldn't be balanced for.
The Killer experience will always be harder and more stressfull. You're the only player on your team versus 4 survivors. That's the nature of an asym. Your hand cant be held here,because if it is - you'll ruin the other side's experience 90% of the time.
Comments
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FYI:
I really get Killer frustration especially at times like 5.3.x when Survivors healed in 3 seconds and then DH'd to one of 600 pallets on cowshed. This isn't addressed by baseline changes,as those are just generally "win more" for any strong Killer instead. Instead you want to do individual changes. This game's balance is intricate. You can't go at it like a chimp with a machine gun.
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Great ideas. Better than the devs have done for a long while, now.
There are also some troublesome perks like Prove Thyself and Call of the Brine which should probably be looked at, too.
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Gotta admit. I chuckled at many parts here, whether you intended that, I don't know. Some of this I agree with, some I disagree with. But I think you've said enough to get some interesting conversations going. We'll see how they play out.
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Oh while this thread defo has a ton of valid points imo it was a bit of a humor moment. Hence the little frosty eyes billy picture at "killers are frustrated segment". This game is silly,I cant not point that out.
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Nice presentation, although I disagree with almost everything in it, at least it looks cool. Everyone has personal preference about how they imagine a game, you are no different of course.
Now about your solutions:
- Buff Solo Queue players by giving them baseline Kindred and baseline Kindred for when people are slugged for longer than 16 seconds.
-No, you don't get separate buffs for solo Q, every game adjustment is global. The difficulty in random teams comes from your random team members not being as invested or skilled, or interested. It's the same in every game when you team up with random people instead of a team you are used to and play together often with comms and such. Plus the baseline Kindred probably will never happen. There is already a base BT, but base Aura reading of the killer without perk investment is a horrible idea and of course it shouldn't be done. And naturaly you will not turn slugged survivors in aura reading beacons.
- Significant nerfs to medkits. They're way too strong. Brown medkits should be at 0,5x speed and Green Medkits should be at 1,25x speed at most.
-Medkits are fine as they are in my opinion. But if you want to change them around a bit let's say we nerf their flat healing and buff the skillcheck or something.
- Overperforming maps should be looked at - Cowshed/Springwood/Garden of Joy - all of these maps need nerfs,they're substantially skewing the results of all games in DBD.
-I'm not sure most maps are realy that bad, except the new RPD which can be a real pain depending on survivor teams or killers
- Buff & Rework the most underperforming Killers,especially those without much of a chase power,or those countered by information sharing between survivors. E.G Hag,Sadako,Myers,Trapper.
-All killers are followed closely based on their global performance and the game is updated accordingly, I presume. Buffing them around information sharing in mind between survivors makes no sense however, since the game was not designed with direct information sharing in mind, which is why we have aura reading perks and such. SWF comms are pretty much acting as a cheat the game wasn't designed for, therefor, probably SWF should be restricted to custom games, and the game balanced around SoloQ
- Nurse needs to be significantly nerfed - she brings an infinite myriad of issues,not only ignoring any survivor skill and bringing the game down to "Is The Nurse going to ######### up or not" and making perk design problematic with dozens of perks needing to be nerfed due to her.
-well Nurse is Nurse.
- Revert the baseline cooldown & speed burst changes. - those are really,really bad and should be reverted.
-I think they are alright for the time being, they are very low requirement features
- All maps should be smaller. There should be no map as large as Shelter Woods & Red Forest.
-That would be quite boring and we need variety. No, not all maps should be small, and there are killers and survivor perks which perform better on smaller or larger maps. Nobody needs to dumb down the variety in the game even more, even if it feels sorta fun to imagine that every map is just as small with high concentration of pallets and loops. Size variety is perfectly fine to keep the game fresh.
- DS should be brought to 4 seconds,with it disabling Killer power usage for 6 seconds and active on both hooks.
-Ahh you are getting greedy now. No. It will not happen. :)
- A nerfed version of Corrupt Intervention blocking two gens for 30 seconds or until a survivor is downed should be introduced basekit.
I personally never cared about Corrupt Intervention much, it's a matter of taste, but I prefer perks that stay useful through the match. However Making it basekit is just as much of a silly idea like the Kindred basekit you mentioned. If people want these they need to invest perk slots in it.
Anyway, cool pictures and all nice job, just your idea that one or another role should be "more stressful" makes no sense and I don't quite agree with most things you said there of course.
"Wanting this game to not be a 50% split between kills and esapes is unhealthy. This isn't a story mode or a singleplayer game. It's a multiplayer game - you should try to give everyone an equal chance."
Well already everyone has equal chance, but some survivor players perform better and others perform worse. Same goes for killer players. And before you bring it up, yes 39% escape rate is quite good in a 1v4 multiplayer game
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There are so many odd opinions that makes me feel relieved some players are not the developers...
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Firstly - What? How is buffing solo queue by giving Kindred to them going to affect SWF at all? They're already in the possession of that info. All these changes serve is bring solo queue in line to that power level so Killer can be balanced around it. If you cant comprehend that,we have nothing to talk about.
Secondly - I didnt' say all maps should be the same size and super small. I said we shouldnt have the entirety of the Yellowstone National Park as a map. That size is stupid.
Thirdly - Look at medkits from a pure time-efficiency standpoint in generator seconds. If a survivor gets injured after 10 seconds in chase and makes it to a god loop that the Killer decides is not worth chasing (correctly) - them healing in 8 seconds with a green medkit and half-an-addon is insane efficiency and killers snowballing.
Fourth - :) Why not buff DS? You want tunneling to stay? My,your bias is showing.
Actually..yeah this statement is already insane and stupid. I am not gonna spend more time.
SWF comms are pretty much acting as a cheat the game wasn't designed for, therefor, probably SWF should be restricted to custom games, and the game balanced around SoloQ
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Re-iterating my point - Killer will always and should be more stressful than survivor. You're one player with (theoretical) equal strength to the other 4. You naturally have more to manage and will have to input more. If it's suddenly on the same level of difficulty to manage,that means that you're being handheld as Killer in some way. How hard is that to understand?
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Sometimes I'm glad behaviour doesn't always listen to the community
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I'm surprised, I don't disagree with most of what you purposed. I could nitpick the things I disliked but I'll just say on a whole I agree with most of your ideas. That being said, none of this will happen except for maybe the Nurse nerf.
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See? you are nothing more than just a raging survivor main who has no idea about game balance but tried to play nice showcasing some ridiculous thread with pictures, to pretend that you are serious about this :))
But for the fun of it let's answer your silly arguments:
"Firstly - What? How is buffing solo queue by giving Kindred to them going to affect SWF at all? They're already in the possession of that info. All these changes serve is bring solo queue in line to that power level so Killer can be balanced around it. If you cant comprehend that,we have nothing to talk about."
-I never said anything about Kindred having to do anything with SWF. I said baseline kindred is a stupid idea and you need to sacrifice a perk slot for it. And also it will not be "activated" during slugging (so greedy now), because it is a perk meant to help with hook camps, and you don't turn slugged survivors into moving aura reading beacons, just because it would be cool for your preferences :))
"Secondly - I didnt' say all maps should be the same size and super small. I said we shouldnt have the entirety of the Yellowstone National Park as a map. That size is stupid."
-That is YOUR personal preference. Maybe others have different preferences. I like larger maps also. And of course variety is good, so big maps are perfectly fine too.
"Thirdly - Look at medkits from a pure time-efficiency standpoint in generator seconds. If a survivor gets injured after 10 seconds in chase and makes it to a god loop that the Killer decides is not worth chasing (correctly) - them healing in 8 seconds with a green medkit and half-an-addon is insane efficiency and killers snowballing."
-Again. I think medkits are fine, Killers can sacrifice a perk slot to counter them it's part of the game. The medkits don't need a nerf really
"Fourth - :) Why not buff DS? You want tunneling to stay? My,your bias is showing."
-because your "buff" ideas are stupid. especially stuff like disabling killer powers, making them work on all hook states. You already have base BT, but of course greed knows no limits. So based on your suggestions, all survivors have power disabling DS, high stun times on all hook states, and if not picked up they turn into aura reading beacons with base Kindred?
Yeah it's a good thing you are not a game dev, probably you would reduce the game population to 0 in under a month :))
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I mean of course a lot of people will disagree with the exact details and bits and pieces of how things should we done. That's completely normal. The amount of people who genuinely think that we shouldn't go and look at maps/items/addons/perks/killers individually while buffing solo queue is mind boggling to me.
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Fun fact: 95% of the playerbase who thinks they're high MMR just reached the soft cap.
And / or they're playing only in the evening - midnight when queue times are prioritiezed over MMR.
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bro i play killer more than i play survivor lmao. most of this thread is "how killer should be buffed instead". the only survivor "buffs" here are bringing solo queue in line with SWF more + killing tunneling.
but sure,biased survivor main. yeah. defo.
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Good for you, and we are talking about your ideas and I pointed out what I find ridiculous about it. You have personal preference, I get it. everyone does, that doesn't necessarily means that your ideas are actually good. Don't take it personal
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Well aware of that. Been laughing at the "top MMR" in stream titles for months. Your point?
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This is the kill rate form the same community where Pig and Pinhead dominate most of the players.
The kill rate is not indicative of people who are actually good at the game.
Survivor is fine. The vast majority of the killer roster still loses with good players in the match.
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But that's not what we're seeing.
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Not what who's seeing where?
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Killer is still the more stressful role. It has always been and 6.1 didn't change that. Personally, I don't like how much resources survivors are given on certain maps to make it so every chase could easily be a 2 min chase if the survivor has someone of a brain on how to loop. To make real perk balance changes I say maps come first, somehow change how camping and tunneling works, buff/nerf killers accordingly then touch perks. Not "Oh we changed 39 perks here you go".
But yeah I agree on the medkit part. Having 2-4 medkits in a lobby with not even decent addons can lead to just very unlikely odds of winning especially on larger maps with how efficient you can play with them.
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no I do have friends and occasionally play. I'm just not blind to not realize that telling eachother the killer's position the entire game isn't something the game is generally designed around. That's what aura reading perks exist for. It's not like the killer is told teh survivor's position by his friends. Which is why when it comes to global balancing SoloQ falls short since as SWF we do have unfair advantage, and teh game isn't balanced separately for groups of players, types of players, or regions based on pickrates. It's balanced ONLY around global stats. So if you complain about hardship of SoloQ compared to SWF, you have your answer right there
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Killer is always going to be more stressful, yes. It doesn't need to be as stressful as it is now or as it has been in the past.
Basekit Kindred is fine, I'd even put in basekit Bond.
The med-kit nerf needs to happen.
I would argue that most maps need to be looked at.
Nurse does need to be toned down and a lot of Killers need to be toned up.
I think those base-kit changes are fine.
Maps should be smaller.
DS should be 5 seconds on both hooks without disabling the Killer's power.
Corrupt base-kit should block 3 gens for 30 seconds and stack with the perk.
I find your changes to be mostly acceptable, but your conclusions to be wildly off-target. The game isn't Killer-sided. If you take people of equal skill and play them against each other, it's actually pretty balanced, assuming it isn't Solo Q.
Undeniably though, Survivor needs changes. While I am enjoying losing only 4 games since Wesker released as Killer, I am not enjoying the opposite end of that.
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I was more trying to mention how the game overall vs the general solo queue roster you're facing 90% of the time is killer sided - should have been more clear about that,fair enough.
DS and killer power - Here's my 2 cents. It makes the stun a bit more bearable for killers like Trapper - but makes it decent versus Killers like Blight/Spirit/Nurse.
Basekit speed boost I still, respectfully disagree with.
Corrupt (with taking into account fixing the biggest maps) basekit only blocking 2 gens for a bit would be fine imo.
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Fair enough. I don't mind you not reading it though, frankly.
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I think it'd be easier to code when it stacks with CI if it also blocked 3 gens.
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Let's be honest this entire thread talks in extreme hypotheticals. It's not like BHVR will implement any of this so I don't even take the coding ease into consideration haha
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Actual fun fact:
MMR is still not shown so all you do is assume based on statements you either like/dislike.
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Harder and more stressful like before meta-shift update? When SBMM actually worked, Dead Hard was stupidly overpowered and everyone ran DS, and gens were faster? Because that was a period when i got so frustrated playing killer role i deleted the game, and judging by steam charts a lot of players did too and DBD had its biggest drop in player numbers.
Sorry you cant cope with new update, but it was actually helpful for the game.
I agree that Nurse/Blight needs to be looked at and some regression perks as well, however the majority of the roster is fine power-wise and doesnt need to be more "stressful". And all changes in 6.1.0 were good and should stay.
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please tell me how by
nerfing survivor sided maps
buffing underperforming killers
nerfing medkits
a weaker corrupt basekit
then just giving solo survivor a bit of SWF info and anti tunnel + nerfing nurse (the most broken thing in the game)
this is survivor sided. this thread is "addressing pain points for killer should have been done differently"
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Please tell me where I want gens to be faster,SBMM to be more unfun and DH back in this thread.
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Maps are, imo the single most unfair, unfun and unbalanced content left in the game, but by a mile. Maps imo need a major re-balance because it's really frustrating to "just load into the wrong map on the wrong killer" and basically lose the game instantly through no fault of your own.
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Perhaps! I can only speculate as BHVR never really gives us any good data on that. Maps are definitely in the top 2 pain points.
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Don't worry. Some players who only play killer undoubtedly saw the title of your post and got butthurt.
There are a lot of players on this forum who don't care about balance, and only want their side to be the strongest ('killer should be able to dominate!!').
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But killer IS harder than survivor. Killer carries the whole weight of the match alone, while survivors split their duties. So per definition, killer is and will always be the harder role.
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So, you don't think that Survivor is in a rough spot right now?
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How much harder do you want to make it?! Going against good survivors, you'll struggle to get a down because of holding forward, instadropped pallets, and no-mindgame loops. Killer still isn't in a pretty spot, and we all know this because you can jump on a low tier like Freddy or Wraith and get absolutely steam rolled, not even by amazing survivors but by just good enough survivors who happen to do gens quick.
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I didnt say that you wanted that. But you want to revert good 6.1.0 changes for some reason, and make killers overall more harder and stressful, when in reality they are mostly in good spot rn. And instead of nerfing strongest killer stuff in the game, you want to revert good changes, then buff every weak killer in the game, its just weird and unoptimal balancing route.
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Oh the title of the post is very intentionally eyecatching. People who just react to it because they already got really unhappy from it are pretty apparent,lol.
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Did you read the post?
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Yes? I've said that in my post and that we shouldn't aim to make it the same difficulty. What's your point?
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There's lots of changes in this thread that are significant killer buffs. This thread just said - 6.1.0 buffs were a formiddable attempt to address killer pain points,but not the correct approach. Besides,I said to revert ONE of the changes. The post hit distance/cooldown.
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Also sorry,I just noticed your picture of stats in detail,what the hell does that mean? Your last month showed is waaaay before the meta-shift?
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2 months prior to it. It just shows what happens when you make some role too "stressful".
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What? I don't really play Freddy much, so I can't comment, but if you are a good killer as Wraith you won't get even close to steam rolled.
Killer is in the strongest place it has ever been. Since the big patch killer has been so easy even at top MMR. I only go for 12 hooks, never slug the last guy, so there have been some games that have gotten away from me, but I can confidentely say that if I put pressure on a hook at the right time, didn't always leave the hook, I would have 95 percent plus win rate as killer since the big patch.
I've seen some comments of your suggesting that the survival rate is so low because survivors make too many mistakes. I'm going to counter with a "there are a HUGE number of killers absolutely boosted by camping and tunneling the first hook - a skilless 'strat' that is the strongest way to play at every mmr."
I'd say the reason those Freddy or Wraith players (is it you?) are getting steam rolled is because they aren't supposed to be playing at the mmr they are playing at.
The only thing hard about killer right now is playing for a 12 hook win.
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I think that's just what happens when you just keep making really bad changes all the time and stagnate.
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As nice as the basekit BT is and it's buff I can't help but to hate the fact that everyone just wants more perks to be basekit for their respective roles because it'll only just turn into an arms race between survivors and killers to see who gets their favourite meta perk to be basekit and then having the actual perks themselves buffed into absurdity. It's a path I'd rather not go down.
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Imo - all the perks suggested as basekit most commonly are all band-aids to in-game issues that should be fixed at the core,instead of perks.
BT/DS - Tunneling
Reassurance/Kinship - Camping
Kindred - Solo Queue Lack Of Info
Corrupt Intervention - Insane RNG of Survivor Spawns
It's not really about favorite meta perks,but more about the band-aid game design perks.
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That you want to make it harder for killers. The "arguments" you used to justify it, like players capitalizing on errors or making mistakes, could also be applied to survivors making mistakes.
Even more with challenges. Where every solo survivor has a different objective, that might be totally counterproductive. Or do you think that a survivor that has to spend 120 seconds next to the killer, without getting caught. Or using SC and escaping, or escape through the hatch contribute to the overall teamplay? Challenges is what sabotages teamplay. Salty players, that suicide/dc is what sabotages teamplay. That doesn´t mean that killer has to become harder.
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I think you just read the thread title and didnt read into it much further.
The thread goes into how 6.1.0 was a bad solution to Killer pain points and overly buffs some Killers and is too bad on solo queue.
I instead suggested different Killer Buffs/Survivor nerfs that in my opinion would be more healthy.
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In my experience the vast majority of players doing challenges will only go out of their way to do a challenge if the game is already won or lost.
I'm happy I don't get matched with players you get matched with. I almost never see this sabatoge, and at least on my region d/c's almost never happen.
I've seen you use this argument a lot, but I don't get it at all. I don't watch NA or EU streams very much, but if I do, I don't see players acting as you say, either. Certainly not enough to warrant any significant drop in percentages for kill rate/survival rate.
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