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Make hook sacrifice be 50% slower if killer is within 20m range
And gen repair rate slower by 30% if killer is more then 40m away.
We gotta fix camping and genrush somehow .. If survivors can save more often they will have less time to work on gens. And slower gens will prevent gen rush matches too by giving killers more time to pressure.
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It's also lore logical , the entity would be mad if the killer did not chase the rest of the survivors but also if survivors did gens too quickly. The entity wants feelings to feed off and you get that from the constant struggle and interaction between both sides rather than just idling at objectives.
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There would have to be conditions on this. It couldn't apply once all gens are done (killer has nothing else to patrol) nor when there is a survivor within some meters of the hook, otherwise survivors will intentionally loop near the hooked survivor to extend their hook timer, which buys the team more time to do gens.
But, that would effectively give the killer basekit Whispers if they are observant; they'd be able to tell if there is a survivor nearby by watching the hook timer.
I don't think slower entity progression while the killer is near is feasible.
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And that leads to survivors looping near the hooked survivor to buy more time for the gens to be completed, it been tried and abused already.
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"There would have to be conditions on this. It couldn't apply once all gens are done (killer has nothing else to patrol) nor when there is a survivor within some meters of the hook, otherwise survivors will intentionally loop near the hooked survivor to extend their hook timer, which buys the team more time to do gens."
I don't see how this would work. How long is one survivor going to be able to loop around one or two cells? Long enough to offset the -33% manpower working on gens? Long enough to offset the fact that you then have two on hooks and probably only two gens done at max?
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If a survivor is also within 20m then sacrifice goes at 100% speed. So no abuse. I believe we can craft a system that works.
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It really depends on the tiles. Suffocation Pit can have some nasty tile spawns, for example. Maps with more than one floor would also potentially be problematic.
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This would potentially help solve the problem, but would also give the killer free information. It's a valid play for a survivor to lurk the hook and wait for the killer to leave.
In fact, this would be stronger than basekit Whispers, because Whispers procs on any alive survivor, including hooked survivors. Whispers would not tell the killer another survivor is near, but watching the hook timer would, and it would only take a few pixels for an observant killer to determine someone is nearby and start looking for them.
So one could argue that progression should only revert to 100% while in chase, but there's times when I've hooked someone and I know there's another survivor nearby so I stick around a bit to try to flush them out. So that would punish the killer for paying attention and sticking around by making the entity progression slower until he finds the hiding survivor.
The problem is that what actually constitutes camping is subjective enough that you can't really create a bright-line rule to decide what's camping and what's not. As soon as you create the rule, one side or the other will game the rule to their advantage.
The ONLY way I can see this working is if you just hide the hook timer from the killer, which seems a bit silly. The killer already can't see hook states; taking away even more information I think is a non-starter.
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I think that moving about outside a colored 20m radius should help find or flush out lurking players , or even slug and check first. 50% slower sacrifice could be gradual (increases during 30s), its revert too so it would not be as obvious. Gradual slowdown would also give you time to scout.
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Maybe, but even so this would only punish camping on weaker killers anyway. Nurse, Blight, and Billy can be outside of the radius and then be on top of the hook in seconds. Huntress and Deathslinger can both proxy camp from a pretty big distance (Huntress moreso). Oh... and then there's Hag, who can camp from up to 40m away.
It's a good idea on paper but it just doesn't work.
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Maybe if we combine bloodlust with this it could work. If the killers did not chase in a while the survivors will be buffed. It will literaly force killers to hunt them down.
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Provided it was coded to only trigger at the same rough elevation the hook is at and generators were prevented from spawning within the same range of a hook I don’t see what the issue would be. If a survivor camps close to the person hooked to slow down their progression that’s now 2 survivors not doing gens. Arguments that the killer isn't able to prevent an unhooking without sacrificing hook progression speed miss the point - they’re supposed to get unhooked most of the time (at least on 1st hook). Saying ‘but I get punished for camping’ to an idea meant to discourage camping is a little nonsensical. Go hunt for those other survivors on gens, that’s what I do.
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Saying ‘but I get punished for camping’ to an idea meant to discourage camping is a little nonsensical. Go hunt for those other survivors on gens, that’s what I do.
Being punished for being around the hook while there is another survivor around the hook is nonsensical.
Like I said, the problem is that whatever rule you come up with, one side or the other will game it to their advantage, and there's lots of edge cases for subjective concepts like camping. E.g. this rule says camping is within 20m, so killers will camp at 21m.
Oddly, this rule wouldn't even punish the quintessential camper: basement Bubba. He'd just have to camp the basement entrance from outside, which is usually the better choice anyway.
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I do like ideas like this. Here's another more specific one.
I think if a killer is within a 20m radius of a hook for longer than 20 seconds straight (if they leave for at least 5 full seconds it should reset, killers trying to dodge this system would end up leaving BIG open windows to go for the save eventually) the progression slows down, starting at something like 25% slower and over the course of 20 more seconds creeps up to 80% slower and remains at whatever percentage it reached for 10 seconds after the killer leaves the radius. In addition to this perhaps the furthest gen away receives progress 25% faster after the killer has stayed in the radius longer than 45 seconds and this gen is shown to survivors in a white aura or something.
Not sure what the best way to address this is. But camping needs to be a lot less viable. Perks aren't gonna cut it. We need basekit changes.
Maybe skill checks during the struggle phase don't get harder if the killer is within a 30m radius for longer than 15 seconds? Skill checks should still occur so people at least have the option to leave the game faster if they're sick of being camped. Maybe base BT increases to 15 seconds if the killer was within' 15m for more than 20 seconds and doesn't go away even if they leave?
As for perk changes maybe Adrenaline gives you a 50% chance to get yourself off on the first hook state if it kicks in while you're on hook and slows your struggle phase progression by 25% (If you take the chance in the case of the first hook state you don't get healthy as soon as you get off). Deliverance grants a 30% reduced struggle phase progression if you didn't get a safe unhook use out of it before your first hook.
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Reverse bloodlust? I like it! I don't know how long for it to kick in would be fair though. It would have to be long enough for it to never come into play in a match where the killer wasn't camping but also short enough that it would actually kick in before the person being hooked died.
Or maybe it's not simply "duration without getting into chase" and also depends on other factors like proximity to the hooked survivor.
It's worth noting that I consider most forms of "proxy camping" acceptable and they really shouldn't be too terribly nerfed by these changes. The way I see it is as killer your primary objective is to kill players. One of the best ways to find players to kill is patrol their objectives. When you hook someone you create a new objective that is arguably higher priority than gens. So patrolling this new objective along with nearby gens is fine and is a valid strat. I don't think by design killers are supposed to NEVER go near that hook again. There is a specific line what is and isn't acceptable as "camping" and we need to decide what that is and put debuffs, nerfs, paused hook timers, whatever the solution is precisely at the problematic unfun, disapprovingly viable face camping and proxy camping. And leave other things that some people might still call "camping" by a stretched definition alone.
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I think the concept of slowing down entity progression just doesn't really solve the problem.
The best idea I've heard would also counter tunneling: shared hook states. I don't necessarily think 12 completely shared hook states are the answer, because being unable to kill someone until the 9th hook is too long, but something along the lines of you being unable to move to the second hook state until everyone else is at the first hook state could work.
In other words, if you would move to stage 2 but there is at least one player left who hasn't been hooked, your hook stage resets and one of the unhooked players at random will get your hook state instead. This would require a minimum of 6 hook states until the first kill, also requiring someone who facecamps the first hook to sit through 6 entire hook states before the survivor is sacrificed.
The downside to this is you could randomly receive a hook state because one of your teammates is a potato. Tunneling a weak survivor has the potential to be advantageous not to get them out early (that wouldn't work anymore) but instead would give you "free" hook states on more skilled survivors that you couldn't catch.
Another downside is it makes hook trading unnecessary in the early game, because the trade is essentially made automatic. Though you could argue you only need to trade if the killer is camping anyway, so in that sense maybe it's a good thing.
I don't think it's a perfect idea, but I like it more than slowing entity progression based on killer proximity, because it effectively forces spreading hook states whether the killer wants to or not.
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Personally I don't think proxy camping is the big issue. Proxy camping should be a tad less viable sure but I think facecamping/camping RIGHT next to the hook is what should be addressed first, then proxy camping. Most proxy camping usually leaves open enough windows to go for the save without risking a trade.
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Being punished for being around the hook while there is another survivor around the hook is nonsensical.
So decrease the range - it only needs to be large enough to allow a save.
If you think about the punishment and what having another player close to the hook means in terms of the match I don’t see how. This is a situation where, at worst, there are 2 survivors not contributing to gen progress - 1 on hook and 1 hiding. At best the rescuer isn’t hiding and you are free to chase them. Unless your chase is around the hook and lasts several minutes, the impact is negligible.
The ‘punishment’ isn’t taking away blood points, granting some form of invincibility, putting the killer in timeout, etc. - it’s just slowing down someone’s death. I don’t see how this would be game breaking even if there were some elusive, hypothetical situation someone exploited.
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Cool idea, hear me out: a Killer is drained of all their charges when near hook in this fashion with a lingering 15 second effect.
Nurse can't camp, because we know literally no Nurse ever goes for first Blink hits at 20 meters away (almost always 2 because skill isn't a factor to doing well with her), Blight would run out of Rush tokens, Leatherface would tantrum before getting close enough, Slinger is too slow and needs 18 meters to hit, Huntress is fine.. Billy would overheat.
Every single "but what if??" of yours is countered by literally, adding more conditions. Small map so "camping" is now literally anywhere? No problem! Just increase and decrease the numbers relatively to the map's size, so 12 meters is camping on Gideon but 20 meters is camping on maps like Badham, Haddonfield and whatever. It doesn't take an insanely genius Mastermind to add more code to a flawed system to fix it without doing something incredibly stupid like "pause the hook timer and disable killer power within 92 meters of a hooked Survivor on Midwich while increasing gen repair speeds by 45%, stackable with Prove Thyself."
Also nerf Nurse and Blight.
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I think that even if we implement any of the above ideas to a certain degree it is likely to cause more good then harm. No need to wait for the perfect solution. Improve with every update.
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Then make a chase disqualify this "camping" qualification. Took me 3 seconds to think of a method to fix that abuse case. Now to be fair you can still camp running left-right left-right, so the killer has to be further from the hooked survivor for say 5s of chase. That way if the Survivor drive-bys the hooked Survivor, then it stays disqualified since the killer is only closer within that 5s to go from 0m to 20m. If the Killer is camping cheesing a chase then it won't count since the Survivor is further. The Killer then leaves the range and the intended "fix" is unaffected by niche interactions. Wait I already thought of this idea and numerous abuse cases in my thread "DBD Problems and Potential Fixes 4/10 Camping".
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