Is there anyone who really thinks the ''basekit unbreakable'' is a good idea? Please explain.
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"On the one hand:
- Slugging for the 4k and unnecessary slugging will be gone"
How are you all missing the point here?
Slugging for the 4K will be META, it will happen even more.
- It will be the only way to secure a finisher Mori, especially when bringing an Ebony Mori offering.
- It will enable the killer to bypass multiple hook stages, as much as 6, if they tunnel out 2 survivors then slug the remaining 2.
- Tons of killers will still want their 4K and 45s slug windows won't stop them.
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yes, it removes a universally unfun part of the game we have currently and is a needed change to fit with how mori's are being implemented.
Let's be honest, outside of a perk you see maybe once in 4 games slugging is legitimate free, instant pressure without interaction. slugging one guy and chasing another means you technically lock down 3 people from doing the object which is huge pressure a killer can get for not even doing their goals while drawing games out.
just this week alone ive had several slug the whole 4 minutes trying for the 4k before hatch spawned which really drains enjoyment on both sides match wise
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Can't w8 for the changes. It will be horrible hahaha.
Right now matches are fast to start this gonna make ques slower. Yay back to that.
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And the killer gets a nice unearned kill? That would be an abysmal idea. Killers would just slug at 5 gens and wait for survivors to suicide... just like they do on hooks which lots of people complain about.
Basekit unbreakable is the best counter to the slugging for 4k epidemic that is happening because it gives survivors a fair chance to get back in the game if the killer chooses to waste their own time, run off and leave them.
It needs tweaking, sure. But I still think its the best change they could have done in principal.
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How is it unearned, why do killers deserve punishment for playing well and why is it okay to reward survivors for failing?
Most survivor complaints were about having to wait for 4 minutes while they bled out. Giving them he option to speed it up fixes that.
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Most annoying slugging is when there are 2 survivors left. I just hate being slugged infinitely, just so the killer can feed his ego with 4k. And i can't die faster, and i can't leave the game. Im being taken hostage. Some killers will even let you wiggle out, if you are close to bleeding, so they drag even more time, to kill last survivor.
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That's exactly what Ive been saying, expect to see snowball killers with cracked out builds to instantly end the game, you won't see a nurse without starstruck anymore , actually starstruck is most definitely about to be in the new meta because alot of killers can benefit from it and people aren't seeing that the most sweaty people you can imagine are gonna be coming out for speedruns on the fastest recorded 4ks because that just became really easy to contest without the need of hooking the slugs
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Because slugging is the antithesis of 'playing well'.
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Simple slugging won't be meta because the smart survivors will simply hide and wait if they see a slug ball. Your also not taking into account all the people who will bring unbreakable. Simply put slugging for the 4k will only continue with the ones who ALREADY do it with a few more joining and leaving that strategy.
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While I'm doubtful starstruck will go on someone like onryu, can't argue the sweating is Gona drown the game...
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I'm surprised anyone is finding this to be a good change.
It's removing a load of play around the dying state, stripping gameplay options from killers and survivors, and will only lead to more camping and tunnelling. For what? To mitigate an incredibly niche "bleeding everyone out at 5 gens" scenario. Or at least it was niche before they made this announcement.
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You don't need unlimited unbreakable to remove 4 man slugging, and do note that kill rates is not an win rate AND also with current slugging.
They choose worst way to fix that "problem", basically adding more issue than fix.
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its kind of necessary with the upcoming mori rework. To prevent killers from constantly slugging to win the game at 1 hook stage and 5 gens
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That will still happen before the patch, bleeding out or not killers are "winning" either way.
When unbreakable or whatever didn't exists there were no way to win from all slug situation, unless killers intentionally let survivors do such.
So that can't be a legit reason despite BHVR said so.
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With the new Mori rework, if the killer manages to hook, kill, or down 3 survivors, Last Standing activates. Both the killer and the last standing survivor have heightened FOV. If that survivor unhooks someone or picks someone off the ground, last standing deactivates. If the killer is able to down the survivor while last standing is active, all survivors will automatically be killed and the final survivor will be moried. This 45 sec unbreakable makes it so that last standing survivor could have a chance if there are slugged teammates. Without the base unbreakable being added, this would be another straight killer buff, which would increase the kill rate; which is already higher than BHVR wants it.
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Before the mori rework, if the killer manages to hook, kill, or down 3 survivors, and down 4th survivor, all survivors have no method to recover themselves unless unbreakable or something exists, which is equivalent to killing every survivor.
You've been bamboozled by the way developers worded it, literally nothing has changed beside it is now instawin instead of all slug/hook situation regardless of deliverance or unbreakable, which is extremely negligible because 99% of survivors won't use it, and deliverance can be ignored by bleeding them out or just looking at it until it reaches second stage.
Think twice, and tell me the difference between "all survivors are near-dead without any way to recover them" and "killing all survivors instantly" if you can.
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Slugging is not an 'outdated' mechanic, it's a core mechanic of the game, just like hooking, pallets, loops, etc. It's what allows survivors to interact with each other and is the sole purpose of 'the dying state'. It has multiple perks built around it including Unbreakable, Soul Guard, Flip Flop, Tenacity, No Mither, Boon: Exponential, Adrenaline, Deer Stalker, Knock Out, plus any perks that aid in healing team mates like We'll Make It or Botany Knowledge.
Survivors won't have any reason to aid either other in the dying state anymore, because frankly killers either just won't slug, and eliminate any possibility of making a rescue play, or the survivors will know that the slugged survivor has Unbreakable (as basekit) and will feel no pressure to leave their gen. They will be safer working on their gen, and won't risk going down in an attempt to make a save and potentially trigger a finisher mori.
It is a core method of applying pressure for killers, by having one survivor slugged, you ensure that another survivor has to come to their aid, which equates to two survivors not on gens. At the cost of losing a potential hook.
Do you slug or hook? Do you rescue a slugged survivor or stay safe? Can you make a last minute clutch play by getting yourself up at the right time and turning around a lost game?
Is this sort of dynamic, on the spot decision making that is being taken away. There will be no more last minute turn arounds, where everyone is on the ground, but one survivor has Unbreakable or an equivalent perk, and turns a 4K into a 2K.
And by taking away a core method of applying pressure, that was in no way toxic specifically because it allowed for rescue plays from survivors, you are reducing killers to tunnel bots. Every valid avenue of pressure you remove form the killers toolkit simply pushes them towards employing more and more cheap, sweaty, more efficient tactics.
Boons deleted hit and run, basekit Unbreakable is deleting slugging, there's only camping and tunnelling left.
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I believe that you are misunderstanding what I am stating. The base kit UB is for the downed survivors to pick themselves up while the killer is chasing or looking for the last survivor. This is to create pressure on the killer to make the right decision (pick up slug to confirm hook or take risk to end the game quicker but potentially lose more progress). I also think the Mori rework is a nice QOF change, because looking for that last slug when everyone else is dead can sometimes a while. And it wasn't fair to both the survivor and the killer, as they are wasting time to finish an already done game rather than in the lobby in a new match.
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I mean of course there are better perks for certain killers, but that perk specifically is gonna be used a lot after these changes because of the possible chance you get everyone after it procs, it can literally end the game now if it pays off and certain killers will take complete advantage of that, I can't hate too much though I myself am going for speedruns with a few different killers once the changes hit but people need to be made aware this didn't solve anything it made it worse.
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It's a great change that adds difficulty and excitement. It prevents the game from becoming stale and forces everyone to try different strategies.
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Yeah, base kit UB is straight buff for survivors that is extremely strong and unnecessary, so I'm asking you how it was "necessary".
It was fine without it, and mori rework is nothing more than a QoL change, tell me what is "necessary" about it?
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If toxic killer players is the one caused the change I wish developers to not introduce stupid change like base kit unlimited UB lol.
There is countless more tame method to fix it without doing something ridiculous like this.
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"Why should killers be able to use a technique that survivors have no counter for"
No counter? Aiding your fellow survivors is the counter. You can pick up survivors in the dying state. That's the counter, and it's been basekit since the game came out!
"With Killers getting a 61% kill rate."
This is a completely misunderstood statistic. Killers have had a 60-70% kill rate for the majority of the games lifespan, only dropping to a low of 50% before patch 6.1 thus requiring much needed buffs. This is the balanced state in an asymmetrical game. It is a misuse of statistics to reduce all kill rates over all skill levels to a single number. Most of that 61% is made up of low skill levels where killers dominate. Anything between 50% and 70% is still an average of a 2K and completely imperceptible to the individual survivor.
"BTW, it's Toxic Killer-Players that caused this change."
It's absolutely not. For one, I've been playing survivor, and solo survivor mostly, for years, and in all that time I've had a Nurse slug all four survivors and bleed us out for 4 minutes exactly ONCE. This was not a common problem until this change was announced. Suddenly, overnight, all survivor mains started crying about slugging. It was never an issue before.
Secondly, the changes aren't even meant to address slugging! the intended change is solely the changes to the Mori system. The system that, if slugging was allowed to continue, would result in a complete overhaul to the game by turning the killers main objectives from hooks into slugs. The Mori system requires basekit Unbreakable to function, that's the sole reason basekit Unbreakable was even considered. You are absolutely deluded if you think they seriously considered adding a meta perk like Unbreakable as a basekit feature on it's own merits, just after they rebalanced the game to the point they wanted it at.
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Honestly, a straight survivor buff is kind of needed right now. 61% kill rate is not healthy, and this is not even mentioning overcharge+COB and how it is the most broken combo to exist in this entire game. I don't think the basekit UB should be unlimited, but I'm not sure if just one use per game is enough.
For the third time, I'll explain why the base UB is necessary with the Mori changes.
It's to create pressure on the killer, and to make sure that 3 man slugs won't last 4 minutes while the last survivor is hiding or in chase.
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Oh you finally moved goal post? I will tell you kill rates is not a win rate but whatever I don't care.
And tell me why pressure was "necessary"? survivors running around somewhere killers can't know with capability to one tap rez slugged one was already enough pressure, literally no one complained about "slugging too strong easily 4k matches", not even nurse has done that a lot, you aren't explaining the reason why it was necessary, at all.
If 4 minutes slug is the problem we have a lot better way to fix this without doing ridiculous stuff, keeping it limited is the one, make it only happening in last stand is another.
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I already explained the other reasons in past comments, but you didn't seem to understand. If there was no base UB with this Mori rework, that would remove pretty much all point to hooking survivors and make the killers primary objective to slug.
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I think you just haven't played the game at all or didn't know it at this point, you can't explain the difference between slugging before the patch and after the patch, and somehow you can't understand why change is not needed when there is no difference between two.
Killers got no buff for chasing, no buff for information, just QoL change for the pointless waste of time, but still you think "without buffing survivors it would remove all point to hook survivors".
All killers can already slug for 4k, and we don't have base UB either, 99% of survivors don't have any self pick up perks (such as unbreakable, exponential, soul guard and no mither), * but * killers primary objective is NOT slug.
You wonder why? because survivors can heal each other, and that is usually faster than killers down survivor, which stays same even after the patch.
I don't think it's that hard to understand it, you can think with logic right?
The only balance change that is in PTB is free UB for survivors and nothing else, mori rework affects nothing for the matches beside how it ends.
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Read those dev comments again. 53% was "a little lower than they'd like".
Please go back and find historic kill rates, such as:
This was considered balanced. And yes a ~60% kill rate is balanced, as explained in this topic:
You are coming at this from a survivor bias, instead of looking at it objectively. But no doubt you will accuse me of being a killer main despite the fact that I play at least twice as much survivor.
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"However, the developers testing built in Unbreakable tells me that ~60% kill rate is NOT where the developers want the kill rate to be at and in fact want it to be lower."
Once again, basekit Unbreakable is only a fix for the new Mori changes. But you've already stuck your fingers in your ears at that point.
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Extremely underrated comment. THIS HERE! THIIIIS!!!
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Terrible idea. The only thing they needed to prevent 4 man slugs is just have the survivor furthest from the killer self revive if the last one goes down. The mori rework is even more dumb especially given the reason they gave.
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I was so baffled when I learned about the new Mori sudden death system. This sounds SO counterintuituve. Why does it have to be a sudden death mechanic?
I thought that it was party to address toxic slugging for a 4k, yes, but why do it in such a complicated way? Why don't you make it similar to the hooks? As long as one survivor on the hook has still Hook stage 1 health left the game doesn't end, its only when everyone slipped into stage 2 that the game automatically ends. And I had thought that the same would apply for the new mori, ie is someone could potentially unhook themselves or get up via UB, then the game would go on, otherwise, once the last survivor hits the floor, the mori animation starts.
But giving everyone UB is such an over the top reaction. And its really baffeling that people are defending this. UB has been meta since the games inception and ONE SINGLE UB was known to turn lost games around and allow for clutch moments. Now everyone has that? And not just as basekit, but UNLIMITED TIMES!?! What is this?
Survivors are already gen-jockeying gens way more then before, but now you can't even force them out by slugging? Oof. The one good thing that I see is, that BHVR is brave enough to shake up the games formula big time after 6 ys, because after this patch the game will play very differently, but I can`t shake the feeling that this is way, way, WAY over the top and throwing the baby out with the water.
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The idea is good, the numbers are very bad and desperately need tweaking. I think 60 seconds base and 30 max with perks. 11-22 seconds is too fast. Slugging when used right is meant to put pressure on survivors. It used to mean 2 survivors weren’t on gens (1 dying, 1 picking up) and a 3rd being chased. The second survivor not being necessary already takes a ton of the pressure off but then they potentially only need 11-22 seconds to get up? Idk why the devs went from 4 minute bleed outs to 22 second infinite pick ups. That’s soooo extreme. If they tweak the numbers and perks then I think the change itself will be fine but they can’t implement it as is.
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Well that's what the testings for. Gather undeniable video proof and force people to look at the truth then see how far the rabbit hole will go.
Again, I think it's good that BHVR is at least trying to stop the 4 slug 5 gen area and giving moris focus. What I also think is that it hasn't been thought through enough. What I KNOW is that we know nothing till we see.
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its making it so people basekit have the top perks, and they can focus on a genrush / bully killer build
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I haven't been paying much attention to upcoming mechanics but could it be that this was done to spice up the game a little for the new finisher moris so that they don't end too quickly?
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The self pickup is tied to a 45 second timer.
That is more than enough time to do whatever you wanted to finish and get the pickup, this will hardly affect anyone in their matches.
The only people this change hurts are the ones who are actively slugging - you know, that extremely unfun playstyle no one likes - and in that case, good. Slugging is on par with extremely boring strategies such as camping, tunneling or genrushing - all of which ultimately hurt this game in the long run and are currently being removed. For the sake of this games health this is a good change.
The only part where it might become problematic is when we bring Unbreakable into the mix. 22.5 seconds is still not that bad (it is slower than current Unbreakable, actually), but given the unlimited nature of its uses and the fact that it increases the maximum amount of times you can self pickup from 5 to 10 is most likely going to be too strong.
Make Unbreakable a one time only use like it is now and we got no more problems.
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