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Camping and Tunneling is actually skillful
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The thing is it doesn’t. Doing gens take more skill because at least they have skill checks, knowing what gens to do first, and having to check surroundings. Camping is just waiting, that’s literally it.
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Because some teams will help the tunneled one and just throw the game under bus. I had game as wesker where I was tunneling claudette and her team came to all help so I got two slugged and hooked them and got third one soon after then took jeff out who was hooked once before and then just killed the other two. Claudette got hatch though and escaped. But however if they would just do gens they had 2 left 3 of them would got out but claudette would died. Other thing which makes tunneling effective is to tunnel weak link out who don't have ds or otr maybe not even dh. But tunneling is risky though and very unfun for survivors so I personally avoid it if I can. Tunneling 2 survivors out and ignoring other 2 however is better stragedy and lot harder for survivors to counter and you don't have to worry about otr or ds either.
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It's massively more skilful compared to another side of the coin. That was the whole argument.
I am glad you finally got it.
I don't see people complaining about generators being a skillless expression, but I see plenty of people complaining about tunnelling and camping being skillless. Time to end such hypocrisy and double standards.
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Yeah, you do see people complaining that gens are ######### boring.
Nobody wants to sit on them for 90 seconds.
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brb turning on DBD, hooking survivor and then just waiting and doing nothing. HOW did killers not get this easy and fast trick to win every game?
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You're going off-topic here. Saying something is boring, is not equivalent to it being skillless.
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In this case, it is equivalent.
Like you said, gens aren't interactive. There isn't anything to do, no expression of skill at all.
It's why a lot of players either slam gens and then try to mess with the Killer or just ignore them entirely.
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Oh I know. I think they are being ridiculous
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You know survivors have to be good in chase too, right? You know survivors have to make important decisions just like killers do?
There's more to survivor than doing generators
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There is more to survivor, but most of the game is decided on how fast you can do generators. Survivors have the most control of the game flow by using the least skilful mechanic (generators).
Most of the games that I have to sweat (incl. tunnel and camp) are not because a survivor looped me for a very long time or they did super sick stealth play. Most of the time it's cause they decided to push gens very fast and the game had a very low chance of being winnable without using strategies
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All fair points. I sometimes feel like that too when I play killer
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You will def have to explain to me how standing in front of a hook not moving and waiting to just press a button to snatch someone is "skill".
As for tunneling, how is going directly after a wounded surv right off a hook "skillful"? XD It's also just not fun, like, survs have objectives to and want to get at least SOME bloodpoints. Make it a little back and forth and more fun.
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No kidding... did you not read my post? I said NOTHING EXCEPT those things requires skill... which is me pretty much saying camping and tunneling requires no skill, maybe read next time.
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That name got a laugh out of me
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Not a great comparison honestly. Doing gens doesn't take skill, but you can't just do gens and then call it a day. Survivors have to survive in chases, long and often enough, to get gens done. A killer, once he gets a down, just stands in front of the hook until the survivor is dead. And yes, I get that killers do also have to chase when camping and tunneling, they have to get at least one down to then camp that survivor, but it still cuts away so much required skill from the killer, and is simply an easy way out for killer players.
It is true that these tactics aren't completely skillless. Esepcially tunneling. But camping in particular does not take much skill at all. You are just standing in front of the hook, and that is kind of it. Watching out for survivors? In which universe does that take skill? The only bit of skill that comes into play is when survivors try to unhook with good bodyblocks. But even then, there isn't much skill involved on the killer's side. You just try to go for a hook grab, and if that fails, you go for the down on the survivor you injured. It can get harder when all 4 survivors are rescuing, but at that point you still have a lot of pressure, because no one is working on gens.
Camping really takes very little skill, it is as simple as that. The bigger problem however is still that those strategies are insanely unfun to go against, and need to be addressed. It's fine for survivors to have their biggest frustrations addressed as well, killers aren't the only one that should get that treatement.
Tunneling admittedily takes more skill, but trying to hard tunnel just simply doesn't take nearly as much skill as playing killer normally. Killers got a bunch of buffs to make their normal gameplay style more viable, it's now time for camping and tunneling to become a little less viable. Not butchered, the game isn't there yet for that, just nerfed a bit so it is more manageable for survivors.
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Strategy? Standing in front of a hook and hard focusing one survivor I guess can be seen as a strategy, but by the love of god, let us not act like this is a strategy that takes even just a bit of brain power. It's literally the most simple strategy anyone could think off. People generally like strategy when it's strategy that actually take some brain power, trying to be ahead of your opponents. Not stand in front of hook until survivor dies.
Also, the biggest reason most people do not like camping and tunneling is because they are insanely unfun to go against. And that is definitely a problem in DBD, especially now after killers received their buffs in 6.1.0. These strategies are incredibly unhealthy for the game.
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Yeah I had prestigate 70 level nurse with range tunnel me out. Sucks that there were 2 cakes but she just wanted me out so badly that searched whole map to find me in basement. She did hook one while I was on hook and injured others but I was clearly the target once I was unhooked. She definetely was skilled enough to win without that tunnel she slugged remaining 3 once I died in under minute. At least I managed to buy little bit time for them. I would honestly be embrassed in her position to have to use tunneling with strongest killer with strongest add ons.
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its literally used to avoid the most skillful part of the game, getting rid of chases completely for downs and makes no win scenarios if you don't go in with 2+ people for the save thus giving the killer the ability to pressure 3/4ths of a team if they don't want a player to die
camping just feeds on altruism and lack of information in solo que. even when its dealt with properly too its boring for everyone involved. the guy on the hook, the gen jockeys and the killer who gets a 2 k at best because they made an end game build back up plan and spent 4 minutes patrolling or staring at a guy they're holding hostage
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Coming from someone with that name I am actually not surprised you think it's skillful.
Those who know...know.
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I agree to some extent. But my opinion is that, assuming that camping and tunneling also require skill, a killer who does them and does 4k and a killer who does not do them and does 4k, the one who does not do them is more skilled.
1. superior results without camping and tunneling (3k, 4k and many hooks)
2. excellent results doing them (hook count varies)
3. poor results without doing them (0k, 1k & many hooks)
4. poor results doing them (less than 1k and few hooks of course)
I feel this order of skill.
But I see a lot of dissatisfied survivors complaining about 1. and 2. and 4.
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We also agree that skills checks, despite the name "checking skills," do not require that much concentration on skills.
I do not have a 100% success rate to overcharge skill checks, but that level of difficulty seems more like checking skills.
I think the range could be narrowed a bit or the speed of the needle could be increased. Or an element like Lullaby.
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This is the worst take i've ever seen on these forums. And I've seen people say nurse is fine.
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Due to the phrasing this is obvious bait, but I'll bite for the purpose of people reading that are ignorant.
Camping/Tunneling is low skill high reward. The normal gameplay takes far more skill than camping and tunneling require for their rewards. The phrasing for the skilled aspect, is what to punish. Tapping a gen off of hook and then as Killer punishing greed is far more skill than blindly tunneling. Similarly going after someone who BT bodyblocked to punish their lack of anti-tunnel is also far more skill than blindly tunneling. There is a pinch of skill in hitting people off of hook if they aren't crying in pain after your previous chase in which you injured them. That is just abusing the bad mechanic that is anti-tunnel endurance causing deep wound. That scenario is also merely having enough skill to have functioning ears, which is more like gating gameplay behind not being deaf. (Personally I would give all sounds a subtitle tooltip in the top left corner of the screen, with the subtitle size based on how loud it is.) There is no outplaying your opposition's tactics or chase skill, just cheesing them out of their anti-tunnel.
For Camping there is such tiny skill in sitting in front of the Survivor. Even if there is a nearby gen, the reward for pushing people off is vastly disproportionate to the effort put into that. The skill expression for camping is punishing a Reassurance usage. The game has too much latency to reliably win the grab game unless people fall into obvious patterns. Even then your grab can be server denied when you won the grab game. The problem is a properly kitted out facecamper can guarantee 2 minimum kills, and more often 3/4 depending on whether you slug for the 4k or not. The skilled camping equivalent is punishing a 45-59s hook save, against people who gen b4 fren.
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I can tell you are a bad/new survivor that can't keep a chase for more than 20 seconds if you think it's mostly about holding M1 and pay attention to TR.
But sure, going in circles around the hook is skillful \o/
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Now, now. The OP began by talking about all the ways that it takes brain power. To restate, you watch for people approaching the hook, because you can't just rely on winning the unreliable grab game. You can't tunnel without Bloodlusting around the body blockers, or you hit them at the right time.
Until chases are viable, it is healthy for the game. You want to take away the few ways that killers can maybe win vs good survivors? The killer buffs in 6.1.0, I've heard enough about. We can't keep going back to that as justification for why killer no longer has any problems, because that's not true. Freddy doesn't stop being 0k Freddy just because he kicks stuff faster now.
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Saying anything is skillful in this game is a red flag.
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Ahh, you're talking about facecamping - but there are other kinds of camping too! Proxy camping, especially if you're in a 3-gen with a hook nearby/in the middle is a very effective & valid strategy.
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Guess we found the killer-main equivalent of Sluzzy.
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A lot of the times, survivors don't even know what camping and tunneling is or how they are basically the cause of it.
If the killer knows you are there, then it's not camping. It's keeping you busy while the hook timer runs out. Two survivors are not doing the objective and the killer doesn't have to patrol for it. That's a good deal. And, yeah, they can tell. You left scratch marks and they are wearing headphones so they heard you running behind them at the end of the chase. That's not camping. That's tactics.
If the gens are done and the killer decides to secure the kill on the hook, that's also not camping. Especially if there are two or more other survivors still in play. When the gens are done, if someone is unhooked, it's almost impossible for the killer to hack their way through a conga line of survivors to get back to them. Trying to secure the kill isn't camping. It's finishing the game.
If you are unhooked in the killer's face and you give up your BT to tank a hit, that's not tunneling. Nor is it tunneling if they decide at that point to chase you instead of the person you just protected. Think about it. Now they know you gave up your BT and you probably are closer to death than the one who saved you. You are now a much more tempting choice. If you don't want to get tunneled, then run away from the killer. It's much less tempting to have to run after a survivor, then wait out the BT, then catch up for the down. If you tank a hit with your BT, that is not tunneling. That's accepting your invitation to chase.
To avoid camping, go do gens or learn to coordinate a hook rescue. To avoid tunneling, don't unhook each other in the killer's face and don't use your BT to get protection hits.
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I do consider camping to be low skilled play. My pov is that someone who has never played the game can buy it today, play their first game, and camp their way to a kill. It's fine for newcomers but if you're someone who has been playing killer for months and still playing the way you probably did when you were new to the game, then you're not even trying to develop your skills and doing yourself no favours.
You are correct that learning to play survivor doesn't take much skill at all, but killer is different to survivor. It's why killers even have Easy, Moderate, Hard, Very Hard attached while survivors no longer do. Survivors are just different cosmetics. Whereas killers have different powers that take time to learn. If you cbf learning, then just play survivor. Nothing pains me more than seeing a killer with great map pressure, like Nurse or Blight, camping. May as well just play Bubba.
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Look at me being skillful doing Gen.
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You dont need to end that chase fast, thats the point. You might lose the game, and the guy you are tunneling can even be more skillfull than you, but the game is stacked in a way that killers will get the survivor in the end. In this cases, the game gets the down (for example via bloodlust), not the killer. Thats why really no skill is needed for tunneling.
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So please, survivors, when you complain about no-skill gameplay, have a bit of self-reflection. Your objective (generators) is literally the lowest risk, lowest skill and highest reward in the game to exist on both sides.
The only reason I'm sitting at a gen with easy mode M1 gameplay is because you're stuck under hook or deliberately ignoring me to go for someone else.
It's YOUR fault my gameplay is zero skill. That's one of the reasons people are so opposed to camping and tunnelling.
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There is a definite difference between proxy camping and patrolling as well. Sorry, about to get anecdotal:
I was in the EGC as Trickster and I managed to finally hook a David who had been annoying me all game for the second time, he played well ngl, he traded blows and pallet/hook saved his teammates etc. Anyway, I stepped away from the hook and went to smash a pallet at the other side of the room where he had tried to loop me and out the corner of my eye I saw Mikaela go for the hook save, I managed to chase her away. But I knew she was still in the area so I stood on the opposite side of the room facing the spot where she was crouched, eventually forcing her to leave due to David dying on hook and the ECG timer restarting. In the end game chat, she and David were brutal to me. Saying I was a bad player, missed most of my knives and face-camped him etc. (The other two teammates, a Nea (dead) and a Feng (escaped while Mikaela tried to make the save)
Like, I was on the opposite side of the room and I was throwing my knives in Mikeala's direction, to remind her that I knew she was there and she was just better off leaving. From what I can tell is more like proxy camping or patrolling rather than actually standing in front of the hook. In hindsight, I probably should have made an attempt to down and hook her, but I didn't want to risk her getting a last-minute hook save.
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Deathslinger, Blight, Nurse, Wesker, Hillbilly, Spirit, Plauge, Oni, Pyramid Head, Trickster, Twins, Pinhead, Artist, EDIT: Huntress
Bodyblocking, looping, chaining loops, Dead Hard, Head On, flashlight saves, Flashbang, 99 Sprint Burst, call outs in SWF, the dozens of techs that survivor has
Compare your ability to play any of those killers or use those perk or techniques to someone that has played this game for thousands upon thousands of hours, then come back and eat your humble pie.
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No way, I'm more skillful camping, because I don't even have to touch my mouse.
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Let's see off the top of my head.
What skills does camping require? Must avoid falling asleep at desk waiting for survivors to deliver themselves to you. Must ruthlessly chase one survivor ignoring all generator pressure to achieve that survivor on a hook. And finally the camper must know how to pick survivor up off the ground and carry to a hook.
Your right there are some skills there....they are just the feeble 2head skills.
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Doing literally nothing isn't skillful. Try winning hard matches without tunneling and camping, that's what skill is.
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I feel number 2 should 1 or 2 kills with 9-10 hooks. That is obviously still much more skillful than bubba getting 4K with 4 hooks... don't you think?
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I am sorry if i misunderstand but it is really hard to tell sometimes they are trolling or serious.
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It's okay, apology accepted. Yeah it is though, I make the same mistake sometimes.
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That's what I'm saying, like, you are literally chasing someone injured. And I feel like I never get as many points in a tunnel game. :/
I mostly nag on face camping. Proxy camping gives some wiggle room to get saves if survs are thoughtful and don't just RUN out to the hook without looking.
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At the risk of adding a turn on page 4, let me ask a simple question:
What is the killer supposed to do to "catch up" on their objective if they lose two or three gens in the first chase? The streamers with 7-9k hours tell me the answer is : force +1 hook state out of the person they just downed.
People who don't play skillful survivors will have inappropriate answers because they don't play vs pixel perfect loopers who can loop better than subtle 2-4% movement buffed baddies.
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stealth has nothing to do with camping/tunneling lol
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The point is the situation itself not how to avoid getting hooked, this is the equivalent of saying just chase better, and you can't control what other survivors do. Surely you can't be that dismissive lol
Getting in these situations is unavoidable it'll happen eventually, doesn't matter how amazing you are.
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Why are you replying to me about this? I never brought up the topic or mentioned anything about fun
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This is probably one of the most absurd comments I have seen on this topic. Like, nobody cares whether you do it out of spite/fun/lack of skill... nobody.
This is like telling a killer well..."PaTRoL AlL GeNs aNd NoT OnE wILl gEt DoNE" ... like you know that its bound to happen. So to suggest that the survivor should pretty much invisible to avoid the killer is just downright stupid.
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i'll give a quick run: You are correct in saying tunneling takes more skill than holding m1 but only against 1 person. When tunneling your effectively showing your able to chase that 1 person out with them at a handicap or how that 1 person can run you the whole match with a handicap. Your gamble argument falls against killers with a brain as they know when to drop chases and pick time and targets. Camping requires thinking, but not much skill as your pritty much waiting for the survivors to make a mistake. Shows a lack of skill (and sometimes smarts) for the survivors, but doesnt show skill for the killer. I do not see how finishing gens is the lowest risk (hiding) and skill (camping) or highest reward (honestly idk what this one would be) in the game.
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Camping and tunneling are just symptoms of flawed core game mechanics.
The hook is the deeply flawed game mechanic in question.
Like, I get it, it's 4v1 so there needs to be a core game mechanic that levels the playing field as far as number of team members goes but the hook is awful design. Camping and tunneling are just abuse of bad game design.
Sure, it can be done strategically but doing it as your only strategy really doesn't take any effort and is actually rewarded more than getting good at other mechanics in the game. It's so low effort in fact that anyone I've ever talked to about dbd who had never played before, which is most of my friends, instantly brought it up. I've explained the basics of the game to several friends, trying to get them to join me (in the past before I stopped playing), and the first thing they all pointed out was "so what's stopping the killer from just hooking one person and just sitting there and then going after the same person once they're rescued over and over until they die?"
And replying with "well you'd be surprised that if you just do gens instead of trying to save them you can actually get several gens done before they die and secure at least 2 people escaping if they do" is such a weak argument to someone who's never played before. They all looked at me like "yikes" and they never tried playing. I don't blame them. They're probably thinking multiple things such as "wow, sounds like a game that really rewards skill!" (that was sarcasm) or they're probably wondering just how much fun it is to be the person that the killer decides to target that way.
So people who know absolutely nothing about dbd can point out how flawed the game design is and how easy it might be to abuse.
That's why camping and tunneling is referred to as "braindead".
And if you're going to say that killing survivors is the killers main objective then it would be asinine to say that doing generators is the survivors main objective. If you're going to frame the killers objective that obtusely then saying survivors main objective is to survive would be the correct way to frame it.
Before I quit playing I tried the PTB as wesker. I got demolished by a team of survivors who in all honesty were probably all solo players. I "won" however. They finished all the gens and had the gates started and I only had 1 hook. But I 4kd. Simply by standing in front of a hook. These were players who had mastered the art of looping a killer in chase while still being able to coordinate and prioritize other objectives possibly without any direct communications. And you know what snuffed out all that hard work and effort? Me. Standing still. In a corner. In front of a hooked survivor.
Yeah tell me again how camping and tunneling takes skill.
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Indeed it is.
2. excellent results on camping and tunneling (3k, 4k, and 9+ hooks which is essential for iri devout category)
2.5. excellent results on camping and tunneling (3k, 4k, but fewer hooks)
It might be better to divide them into the following categories.
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