BHVR, When Can I Stop Playing Against SWFs?
It seems like every other match is against SWFs. I'm an average killer and I would prefer not to play against SWFs as comms give them an unfair advantage IMO. Is there any plan to implement a setting that I could turn on or off that would prevent me from being matched against SWFs?
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At the same moment as survivor see which killerwith which addons they are going against. So average Q time for nurse, spirit and blight or ppl that bring tombstone piece meyers will go to 1 hour in mid MMR where there's most players.
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It's likely going to be never. Nobody would play vs SWF if they had the option. What you should ask for is for SWF to be made less broken.
Ask for SWF to not be able to repeat : characters, items, perks or offerings.
That way it encourages 2 man groups and they are almost not affected. Four man teams are severely limited to balance having voice coms. This would prevent bullying and still let you play with your friends. And they could show you what perks everyone in the SWF has so you know how to coordinate.
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Also if you punish friends for playing together (as opposed to give more information to soloQ players) - you will loose them. As there is already more killers (no wonder given all the buffs they got) then survivors then is needed + a lot of players play as both swf and solo - you would alienate too many needed players and there is very good chance of the game dying. Sure it would not be immediate. But I would not give the game more time then a single year until player count would drop below 5000 players.
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What you are asking is tricky.
And the solution to this is also tricky.
The only solution to the problem you seem to be raising is adding bots (survivors/killers) as players in public games.
Advantages of Bots:
- Greatly reduced lobby search time for both roles.
(Which will reduce the probability of crossing SWFs)
- Always available to play, at any time.
- Prevents DCs and AFKs.
- Prevents toxic behaviors: (Block a survivor in a corner, kidnap the killer by refusing to make repairs while remaining hidden)
- Does his job without ever complaining.
Disadvantages:
- Don't know loop.
- Survivor: Lowers the palette instantly.
- Killer: Runs on the survivor without thinking.
- A bot can be very annoying to face (Victory too easy for the player facing them).
- Humans like to come together to point out communal causes, (Even if it sometimes takes the form of harassing a person) Killer bots can deter SWFs from launching the game.
- Players who buy skins in the game are mostly MainSurvivors.
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that will never happen, very unfair to people who just wanna play and have fun with their friends in a party game.
their queues will be hours and the only killers who would be willing to play against a swf are the sweaty killers so their matches would be miserable.
most swfs you probably can beat if you get better.
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As long you punish killers to play the game you loose them too. Balance is only to one side, the survivor one, while they get boons and base bt and possibly unb, killers break pallet 1%faster and clean the weapon 0.5 faster lol.
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basekit stbfl, brutal strength, thana'd gen speed, shorter on hit sprint, eruption, cob, oc, new "loops", missing pallets.
As a result 61% killrate, almost perma surv incentives and still always longer killer queues.
Sure bud. Balance is 1side. Surv side. Specifically take everything from surv side.
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Where's your proof that "every other match is against swf" cause that seems like a very bold claim.
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How is it unfair to people who just wanna play and have fun with their friends? I'm not banning them from playing, I just don't want to play against them because it seems unfair to me. And SWFs just "play and have fun with their friends" has almost always been by making the killer as miserable and frustrated as possible. I'm not saying people should be punished for playing with their friends, I'm saying that I shouldn't be punished for other people playing with their friends. If most SWFs can be beat simply by getting better, then cue times won't get much longer because most killers won't use the option. Unless SWF has an unfair advantage, in which case my original point stands.
Post edited by Beolthar on1 -
Proof? How can I provide proof of that? You want me to take a screenshot of every match I play and post it? The teams I've been playing against have been way too consistently organized with great timing and map knowledge throughout every other game I've played recently. It would be less reasonable to assume I've just been going against insanely skilled or lucky soloq survivors every other game. I've heard SWFs are rare, but I don't think that's true. If it is true, then what I'm asking for won't really affect cue times at all for most players. And since so many say SWFs aren't OP, then most killers won't use the option either, so SWF cue times won't increase much either.
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Dude this game is insanely unbalanced right now, i played as survivor with a team that seemed all professionals (if i was at killer, would guess a SWF too), tank, gen eficciency, loop accuracy, all that and i was solo. This is a MMR problem, that put these players together and they destroy the game because its ASSIMETRICAL. 1 people knows to play as killer against FOUR people that KNOWS how to play perfecly, this is the result.
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Dude survivor is strong as ever been, maybe the killer players are more bc is way more fun play as killer with wesker, that surprisingly is not weak as a sadako or the knight in ptb. Its still unbalanced bc of MMR but is more fun. You know some people get tired of holding m1 in gens an barely playing the game.
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It doesn't take much for a group of 4 decent (nor insanely skilled) survivors to work together and play well. If you're blaming every second match and good team on a swf then that genuinely sounds like a mentality problem.
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Suuuuuuuuuurrrrrrreeeeee. Who are you even trying to kid at this point? Before 6.1 killrate was 49%. When the game came out there were literal infinites, better loops (e.g. shack had 2 windows), perma sabotages, windows never blocking and many more pallets.... And it all also showed on win rate.
But "survivor is as strong as they ever were".
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I am showing you your delusions on things you can check yorself. Killer has NEVER EVER been as easy as it is now. Survivors were very busted years ago. After many years devs decided to fix it. Yet they went too far now with 61% killrate - creating same problem, but on opposite side.
And kill rates + queue times were historically very good balance indicator. For a long time it was survivors, who had to wait for game. Now it's killers. But sure say to yourself that survivors are as fine as ever.
Post edited by Rizzo on0 -
I speak based in competitive matches, pro scenario, things are the same there, nurse blightm nothing else, if it is too easy to be killer, they would win as trapper or billy. As for solo Q it should have an another upadate to solve solo Q problems only. If you say this based on solo Q the high kill hate is skill issue from community. Do you think the other killers are ok that they are not viable in competitive matches?
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Maybe. But I still don't like playing against SWFs and until they give me an option to not get matched against them then I guess we'll never 100% know. Also, there may be more SWFs in my region then there are in yours. So it may be rare for you, but common for me.
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If you lose against SWFs you will most likely lose against the same players when they are Solo. Communication is not the main strength of SWF.
Dont blame your losses on SWFs and look where you can improve instead.
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I do look for where I can improve myself, but SWF having good communication is the main strength of SWF. It's what everyone brings up when they talk about the difference between playing soloq and playing SWF, including survivors. Communications gives the SWF knowledge of where the killer is, what pallets have been used leading to stronger looping overall, what perks/add-ons the killer has before personally having to interact with the killer, where to go for another survivor to heal, and body blocks that are way too coordinated for soloq to pull off without a lot of luck. An excellent example of the strength of communication is Hens' survivor team. They even use a map for the most precise communication possible because they know it gives them an edge. Survivors can be really good without communication, but nowhere near as good as they can be with communication. Communication is the main strength of SWF.
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When you stop trying to win so hard lol
Let survivors escape more/aim for 8 hooking and you get easier survivors. If you don't want hard sweaty ones stop playing sweaty, simple as that
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1, taking Hens as an example is about as precise as taking supaalf and marking his nurse as general killer's strength. Meaning why are killers every crying when they can win 500 times in a row and get 4K every time they really want?
2, Most of survivors are happy to say where they are - to say where killer is... Quite a bit more rare. To say where the resources are depleted. Not normal to say the least.
3, check this stream: https://www.twitch.tv/videos/1624258581?t=04h09m57s
this are 4x prestige 100 players (rather 5 if we count killer). Meaning very good players. They probably don't know each other and they don't have comms. Look how they play together. How they can heal together. How they chase together. This is just to show that to be insanely good - you don't need to have communications
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You say I shouldn't use Hens as an example because it's not precise, but you then suggest examples that also aren't very precise to support your point. I didn't say you need communications to be insanely good. I said I think communications gives the survivors an unfair advantage because it makes it much easier and allows a lot of plays that can't be made without communications. If those survivors did have communications, they would have done even better. Not sure how you know what is and isn't normally said on comms, but most of the streams and recordings I've seen of SWF, they're calling out everything.
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Because I am part of a smaller community where random-ish people come and go. I see people who have less then 100hrs in game and hear what they communicate. And on the other spectrum is a guy with almost 9000 hours.
What you see are big name streamers. Those guys need to be very good to be big names. Meaning they can utilize comms very well. You don't play against those people. As I already said this is not the case for most. Standard people are able to call out "I am near shack/main". Maybe some other very clear landmark sometimes. That's it.
Sure comms can be huge help against some perk (like knock out), but against standard casual players most of the perks don't get communicated and make no difference.
As for my example - sure I am not saying everyone plays like that. It's just a show of which parts can be infered in game even without comms. What I am trying to say that those 4 guys totally look like a SWF. Yet they are not communicating. So how can you be sure you get swf every other game? Like there are some tells (like having selfish perks like left behind), but even those can mislead you. And some tells are just plain wrong given you reach certain MMR range (like altruism is not swf thing - I had planty solo games where I died for someone or somebody died for me even if I/they could just leave, also I play sabo in my solos so getting hook sabotaged also does not mean SWF).
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Simple suggestion:
Let the killer know if it's a 3 or 4 friend lobby.
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Show which killer we run against and we can add it. Nobody wants to go against 4-man swf same as against blight&nurse (and many are fed up with wesker).
If SWF can't get speedy lobby and get sweat fest if they do, let's see the same treatment on killer's side
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Cute, but anecdotal. I have lost track of the number of times survivors have insulted me regardless of how I play. Apparently, I can face camp from the opposite corner of the map as Trapper. I'm fine with losing some matches. As I said in the original post, I am an average killer. I expect to lose some matches. What I am not fine with is my opponents having an unfair advantage, which comms are in my opinion. I would still expect to lose some SoloQ matches even if they did implement the change I suggest. But at least then I could know 100% for sure that it was a matter of skill and possibly favorable map RNG that determined the outcome, and not a third-party tool that gives survivors an edge.
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I'd be fine with them showing which killer the survivors would go against in lobby, but the game will need some serious reworks for that to be fair too. Otherwise, it'll be 4 flashlights every time someone wants to play Wraith or Hag. Besides, my original point is that I believe comms give survivors an unfair advantage. Being able to strategize exactly what to bring to counter the killer isn't making the game fair. Getting rid of an unfair advantage is because it balances the game, especially when the unfair advantage is due to a third-party tool that BHVR can't regulate.
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How can I be sure I am getting SWF every other game? I've already addressed a comment demanding proof. I can't provide proof. But if the change I suggested gets implemented, then I will know 100% and you could know too. That would also help me to know where I could improve in the game, and once I improve to a certain point, then I would feel more comfortable playing against SWF. Otherwise, I can't necessarily tell which parts of the game I could improve on, and which parts are just SWFs having an unfair advantage. I have a feeling I'm not going to convince you to support the implementation of an option for killers to choose whether or not to get matched up with SWFs. I also don't think you're going to convince me that I should just "get gud" at the game. I already know I can improve plenty. I already implied that in the original post when I said I am an average killer. I am fine with admitting that I can be outplayed and that I have plenty still to learn. But I still believe comms give survivors unfair advantages, even in cases where they don't talk about everything they could to maximize that advantage. And I still want an option to opt out of playing against survivors using said advantage.
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It's a good suggestion, but then killer has to keep dodging if they keep getting put against SWFs and don't want to play against them. A setting that prevents getting put in the same lobby as a SWF would be far more convenient.
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1, this game is inherently unfair. Killers got buffed so, that low mmr soloQ survivor can loose 5x in a row and there is nothing interesting or special about it.
2, maps play a huge role - if you get nurse on the game, you will have very easy time. If you get Oni, good luck. If you get shelter woods with most of killers, enjoy almost free 4k. Get garden and you have tough time
3, nurse and blight are so inherently unfair, that even well coordinated SWF that train together have very hard time playing against them
4, there are things like tombstone piece in a game - killer stalks someone, then leaves them and find you. Once you get to M1 distance to him, you are suddenly morried even if it's 1st hit you got and you are in a first minute of game. And there are many more things like this
5, devs themselves said SWF with comms are ok. They even made balance changes around this. As a result average killer wins 59% of (mini) matches -he kills each survivor with 59% chance. This goes up to 61% for best 5% players. You already have advantage against SWF. Learn to play against it
Post edited by Gandor on0 -
You say you are an average killer, then I would expect you to lose when playing against a 3 or 4 person SWF.
Assuming you are matched with solo survivors that are the same MMR as you, you should probably average 2 kills per game. The problem is that if they are SWF then they will be at your level and then given the extra advantage of comms as matchmaking is based on the average MMR.
Even if you improve somewhat, so will the level of your opponents so you will be no better off.
I think the best solution is to for the devs to tweak matchmaking based on the number of members of the team. Four 1600 MMR survivors in a SWF probably shouldn't be matched against a 1600 MMR killer..
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That works on a premise, that killer has 50% killrate against solo players. IF that was true, I would agree. But the fact is, that killers have 59% on average kill rate against EVERYONE - SWF included. Also there were stats that max difference between solo and 4-man SWF in some special bracket (so this is not average and can't really be compared) was somewhere around I think 13% (this might be unprecise, I can't find it) and is usually much smaller. All in all even in this maximal case against average it would still be 46% kill rate - when realistically the number will be even smaller.
50% means game is balanced and more about your skill. You as a killer mostly win. It's 61% kill rate in high MMR (so yes 2% more then average). This basically means, that game is MUCH more balanced when it's SWF against killer then when it's solo against killer. So if we really talk about disabling SWF, we should also substantially nerf all killers
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I'd love to see a breakdown of the 59% win rate. I want to see where the 3 and 4-person SWFs are. Are they the ones that are getting the bulk of the 41% of the wins? I mean if the MMR works properly then it would make sense that they would because as far as we know the game does not alter the algorithm to take any SWF advantage into account.
I'm a little suspicious of the 13%ish advantage for 4-person SWFs over 4 solos. From a personal perspective admittedly, I get a much higher escape rate even in a 2-person SWF (although that might just suggest I am being carried!)
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Unfortunatelly I can't find those stats. They are not most recent too. But I remmeber it was around that number (still it's my merory - it could have been 17% even if I don't think so. But I am 100% sure it's not 20% or above). And yes. Devs stated in those same stats that solo survivors are "about half" of all players and 4man SWF is the least possible lobby you can get as a killer (said in another way everyone solo is most often part of game. Duos being second most common then 3-man and 4-man is the rarest).
Also the reason you are suspicious about 4-man SWF is, that they are demonized a lot. People watch hens and his squad and imagine that is standard SWF play. When in actuality - you said you do play with friends so you know what kind of information you do provide and the info you don't provide. I would assume you don't even take chases to the part of map where your teammate is not present (I might be wrong, but chances are I am right). And as these 4-mans are demonized that much, people tend to say it's 100% SWF every time someone makes an efficient or altruistic play. That's far from truth also from solo's perspective.
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imagine trying to play killers like ghostface, plague and wraith. Or you play doctor and everyone brings calm spirit. As killer, you don't have an advantage right off the bat like SWF's do.
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This sounds like you really just don't like killer players to be honest. You went off topic for most of this post. I have not changed my mind from your statements. I intend to improve and I still want an option to not play against SWF. I disagree with the Devs on SWF having comms being balanced. It would be unrealistic for the Devs to take SWF out of the game altogether and many survivor players only like to play with their friends, which is understandable. An option to opt out of playing against SWFs would be fair since it would be up to the killer. If SWF isn't unfairly strong, as you say, you have nothing to worry about because most killers won't use the option. If I improve enough, I may not use the option or stop using the option if it was available. But right now, I want the option and I would use it.
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I would be fine with that, except that the Devs have shown a lack of good design/execution when it comes to MMR matching, from what I've seen the community say and from my own experience. It kinda works the way it is now, with them turning off MMR to test things out proving that it has an effect, but it definitely still needs to be improved IMO. I think it would just be easier for the Devs to make an option for the killers, rather than continue to try and tweak the MMR system. That, and the MMR system can only do so much anyway due to the number of players available.
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1, you are wrong. Today I played 2x nurse, Oni, cannibal, 2x spirit and 3 survivor games. It used to work the opposite way, but killer is now much more relaxing then survivor. Btw I lost only 1x nurse and 1x oni + 1x spirit was a draw (2 out) - where all 3 survivor games (btw it was as 3-4 man SWF this time) were losses (because I got in order lery's, midwitch and shelter woods after which I said enough). This is just to show I do play killers too. They are VERY EASY in comparison (and I don't even camp or tunnel).
2, killer is already unfairly strong against average survivor - this means they are VERY unfair against soloQ. What you say is "I want to have at least 3k almost every game and I don't care about the other side. They are not people to me and they can loose nonstop, because I only have fun when I win way more then I loose.". I am reasonably certain SWF don't even have more wins then loses - sure I don't have full stats for this, but from bits of information we have I would guess 4-man SWF winrate is somewhere around 50%. If this is unacceptable for you, then you are very entitled killer main.
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Now you are completely ignoring what I've said in order to paint me as some spoiled brat. I've never said I want to have at least 3k almost every game. I never said I don't care about the other side. I never said they are not people to me. You are completely ignoring my real arguments and what I am wanting. At this point, I am considering your comments to be some kind of bait and will no longer respond to them after this post.
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This sounds like you really just don't like killer players to be honest
I just showed that this can't be the case, because I myself play killer too.
I intend to improve and I still want an option to not play against SWF
Now we are in agreement. You want easy games - you call it being a spoiled brat. I would not use those words, but sure I agree (that was my whole point of 2, from my last reply).
I disagree with the Devs on SWF having comms being balanced.
And I pointed out bits of official stats that suggest (even if this one is not bullet proof), that best SWF have now about 50% win rate (as in 50% - what would you consider balance if not 50%?). You don't want to play against that one, because 50% win is not enough for you and want an option to have all games against soloQ to stomp "all the time".
An option to opt out of playing against SWFs would be fair since it would be up to the killer
What is fair about it? That killers now have about as much a chance to win as loose and they want to opt out of such a matches?
If SWF isn't unfairly strong, as you say, you have nothing to worry about because most killers won't use the option.
They are not. But some people want more wins then just 50% - so they will pick easier option. And solo most definitely IS easier option.
I already thought that I wrote my last message as direct response WITHOUT ignoring any things you said.
Post edited by EQWashu on0 -
have you actually read the latest status note?
they are going to address SWF's mmr... i think this is a big step up.
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