Shadowborn Should be Universal
Actually, FOV shouldn't be tied to perks at all, because that's terrible both for accessibility reasons and just weird design in general, but if it's going to be tied to a perk, you shouldn't need to go prestige a Killer (even one of the base Killers) just to get the blasted thing.
honestly, given how fundamental a feature it is (and that it immediately brings a tradeoff in increased flashlight susceptibility and using a perk slot up), if anything should be instantly max-level for all Killers, it's this. And then Wraith can get something actually fun.
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Give us FOV slider and make Shadowborn a perk that makes the killer start the trial undetectable for 60 seconds or until a survivor is downed. Boom
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Fov slider is a pretty dream. For both killers and survs.
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One of the very few disadvantages killer has over survivor is how much vision he has. You want that removed for free robing survivors of some of the few things they can still do (e.g. 360, window tech, inside tech, ...).
If you want that, use a perk. Don't ask for freebies. Killers already have 60% kill rate. Why another buff?
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Because this is literally an accessibility and usability issue where any amount of fixing it is locked behind a perk.
Although, whilst I would rather the FOV was just increased and then the game changed, the actual point I was making here is that you shouldn't have to go and unlock increasing the FOV by prestiging a specific character. i.e. just give people the perk.
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Sure. It's qol. I want qol for survivors too. It's qol to make them basekit have 5% more speed. /s
No my man. QOL is not a buff. QOL is something that is independent of strength, but makes playing it feel better. This would be buff.
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Some people get motion sick from low FOV, especially with all the turning around and spinning that you're expected to do in this game. Personally, I just find it kind of dizzying, and all the random junk spawning right now drives it up. So no, it actually is a matter of accessibility, even if it might also have buffing (in which case, go find some way to compensate it)
but again, you might notice, the suggestion advanced in this thread is just 'make shadowborn a universal perk so every killer has it' (preferably just make it T3), not 'free FOV increase for everyone'. It's not giving people things they can't get, it's just making the option to use the perk available without some 10 hours of grinding for it.
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Its a qol to make all survivors start on hooks
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First 2 posts (so it's your post too) ask for it to be basekit. I have 0 problems with it being a perk that takes up 1 slot. I would also support the idea for it to be unlocked at T3 for everyone (considering some people might indeed have problems with it health-wise)
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Yes same thing, only on different side. Thanks for providing another example 🙂
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I stand by the idea that FOV shouldn't be tied to a perk, because you shouldn't balance your game around visuals that render it literally unplayable for some people; it'd be like making the various colourblind modes require a perk to active and screwing with the saturation for everyone else. If it would be too big of a balance change on its own, then go counteract it somewhere else; fairly basic first-person video game settings (Minecraft has an FOV slider!) are not something that have any business being locked behind perks.
Of course, if the devs don't want to change that, at least don't make people grind for the pleasure of adjusting it and locking one of their perk slots. That's just kind of cruel.
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Killers having low FOV allows survivors doing some plays they are otherwise not able to do. And you can't dumb-down game so, that everyone can play it if it severly limits the game.
Would you be ok if the game added some kind of humming so that completely blind people can play it? Change weapons and hooks for teddy bears so that small children can play it? I think you see where I am going.
And once again. I am absolutely not against artificially prohibiting killers with motion sickness to play this. All I am asking is to pay the price (perk slot) for the advantage they get out of this (removal of several techs based on visibility). Otherwise everyone would always have max FOV even if they don't suffer from motion sickness.
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Why shouldn't they be allowed to play with max FOV? Almost every first person shooter game has an FOV slider and not everyone plays with max FOV, some don't like the feeling of it and only set it to 90 and not 120 or whatever the max is sometimes... Colourblind filters also allow people without colourblindness advantes in seeing on some maps so do you also consider that a Buff and not QOL? And even if both things are a buff those are really minor buffs and you limit the accessability of the game for those players, which I don't think is good idea... Especially since I don't think that it completely removes some techs... I don't even know if it makes the necessarily harder... The crouch FOV tech only takes into account your inability to look closer to the floor sometimes and not the FOV based one to the sides... Therefore I would need further carlification whichs techs exactly would get removed by this?
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"I want the specific advantage this has to me and think that the game should force people to restrict their builds and still have a weirdly low cap on FOV regardless" is not, in fact, a very generous attitude.
increasing FOV wouldn't even fix the things that are 'the survivor is inside the Killer model and behind their camera' anyway. Nor does it change how 360's work (seriously, the attack cone hasn't changed). The loss is only to anything that relies on the Killer not being able to see directly to their side without turning, which is way more niche.
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Window tech 100%. 360 and inside techs would become way harder. Even crouch tech would become somewhat harder.
But those are only chase "techs". It does not even consider you would be able to camp better and notice things around you better.
The perk is being used to quite a degree (sure it's by far not a meta perk) even outside people suffering from medical issues. A lot of blights do take this and headaches are totally not the reason for it.
Also colorblind filters are buffs. I have seen what they can do. And they do help a lot (but can make game look very ugly). It's 100% not just QOL. But there is nothing that can be done about them so sure. We can consider them yet another thing that makes the game not perfectly fair. That does not mean we need to add more of those
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I don't think so... But hey if you show me a video of the exact same thing with and without shadowborn and there is a clear hint that with shadowborn you can see the survivor hey why not... Also it's still not entirely a buff since you can also get blinded for different angles with higher fov...
Overall just like clolourblind filters it's just such a minor thing and I don't think it's reasonable to make people run that thing because otherwise they'll just get a headache or something...
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If you see what is happening, you can counter those easily. When you see that somebody is doing scratch marks around you and then walking inside you, you can just move back and hit M1. When you see someone going one direction and then changing it back, you have time to react and not swing somewhere that survivor is no longer.
I know that FOV slider would 100% make my games easier especially when playing wesker. But I am not playing it, because I get more value from other perks.
If you want to talk about buffing shadowborn, then we are on a totally different topic and I think the perk could get a minor buff. But as I said - that is off topic to the discussion I think.
Sorry I don't have a clip. I didn't use this perk for quite some time too. And you are also right that the perk makes it easier to get blinded (same as other perks that also have a few disadvantages). But if nothing changed, then I remember it did help me against 360-ties back then.
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"Why do people take the FOV increase perk when the default in modern games is around 105 degrees" is not a complicated question. DBD has a default FOV of 87; that's effectively lower than Doom had. A thirty year old 2.5D game had 90 degrees. 102 degrees, the amount you get with Shadowborn, is the same as Minecraft's default. That's actually a much more normal value.
Because the game looks and behaves really strangely if you play any other first-person title. Most things with low FOV don't expect you to spin around like a top.
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Those are completely different games that are not asymetrical pvp where one side is meant to (to some degree) hide or use lower FOV of the other side.
But I don't think there's anything more reasonable to add to discussion. The end result is, that you want more visibility (by say medical reasons) and don't wish to pay for it. I say there should not be any more freebies for killer side as the game is already easier for that side (and I play much more killer then survivor in this reset). I presume there is nothing to be said that changes your or mine opinion, so I suggest let's agree to disagree :)
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Shadowborn should not be base kit at all. FOV is not a fundamental 'feature', it's literally limited by design.
You're playing a hide and seek game and are basically asking for it to be easier to find people. But flashlights... A poor counter, they would have to increase the angle at which you could blind. Which will result in flashlights working from the most ridiculous angles. Have fun trying balancing that.
The game is balanced around killers having limited FOV. Almost every perk and mechanic in some way is designed with that as a fundamental gameplay design.
How easy do you want the game to be? Let's give Blight or Nurse 110 FOV.....
Every Killer seeing scratch marks they'd otherwise of missed from ridiculous angles.
Survivors with increased FOV hiding and looping tall structures, being able to see the red stain seconds sooner...
Just because other games have FOV sliders doesn't in anyway mean DBD should. If anything it would be easier to make an argument of it being redesigned or removed.
Post edited by EQWashu on0 -
DBD stops being a hide and seek game as soon as people know how to loop dude ^^ I still don't understand that it is still called "deadly hide and seek" xD I mean sure, it is an option, but it is often time far more unreliable than everything else... So I guess only use it in really desperate times or when you hope to get lucky :D
Post edited by EQWashu on0 -
If Shadowborn is reworked to not have anything to do with FOV, it should allow you to see better in the dark or highlight Survivors whom haven't done any actions for 30 seconds or something. Basically, if a survivor hides in the corner or behind a Bush and not touch a generator or locker or doing any healing actions and not running; the perk activates and reveal their aura until they get hit or started running.
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FOV is an accessibility feature in any normal video game. It should not be gated by a perk, the end.
People here arguing about killer vision and game balance, as though that should somehow take precedence over actuial game accessibility. Get real. You'll adapt to it. I've seen some players who literally cannot play any killer without Shadowborn because it gives them motion sickness.
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it's be a buff to survivor for flashlight blinds.... more FOV for the killer means more angles for survivor..it'd be win win, you won't window tech or 360 a killer that knows what's going on anyway and a killer that's lesser experienced is going to be spending days getting 360 with or without shadowborn.
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the game would need to be completely redesigned and balanced and have you seen how long bugs last?
The game is balanced around that game play DESIGN! it's not an accessibility feature! The perk should be removed and you should play it the way it was designed! Or make the perk a game filter/ reshade to see in the dark.
That's why thousands enjoy the game. You're asking to be able to see more because the outcome of most Killer games you play is not what you like. Learn the mechanics and get better. Stop hiding behind any excuse your finger nails can hold on to!
Post edited by EQWashu on0 -
I'm not particularly biased toward either side, I play everything. If anything, I play way more survivor than killer. So, your assumption there is wrong. :P
The idea of the game being balanced around FOV as a design element at the cost of accessibility is absurd -- and it really is that way, man, that's on them. The accessibility should still come first. That's like an obvious accommodation that games have been making ever since the advent of 3D graphics cards, and the consistency around this Shadowborn argument supports that.
They should just add an FOV slider, maybe not to the degree that current Shadowborn affords if that's too much, but something that is more customizable than what we have now. The people who need Shadowborn to even play at all have to give up an entire perk slot to do so.
Post edited by EQWashu on1 -
About the absurd argument. Why do killers use weapons and hooks? It should be a modified game of tag so we don't exclude young audience /s
Full accessibility does not take precedense over everything. If fixing accessibility ruins the game, then maybe the game should not be friendly to fully blind or fully deaf people. If there is an easy fix - say perk that gives advantage together with fixing accessibility issue - say spine chill, then provide that perk as an option for everyone. But please don't make it basekit for every player.
Sure and existance of boons is buff to a killer as survivors spend less time on gens. By this logic we should probably make basekit CoH for everyone and call it a win win.
You know that extended FOV is much better benefit then hindrance. Why are you even trying to sell it as survivor buff?
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Dude you're making it sound like +15° FOV is an uber buff that will completely destroy balance what is this dude? xD Such an overreacting Andy xD We don't even know if there was a specific reason to set it to the current FOV or if they just put a random number in... It's not even an even number... most people are uncomfortable with uneven numbers when it comes to for example the volume on their tv or something so why even put 87 in there ? XD
I simply don't understand how you could assume the need to rebalance a game just because of higher FOV xD You make it sound like monitor and abuse and Shadowborn are gamebreaking perks... excuse me man xD
Also I really like the point where you just say people should get better and learn the mechanics when we mostly argue around it being a benefit for people who get motion sick and stuff... Your the one hiding behind excuses pretending a simple FOV slider would be a balancing issue but people being forced to run a certain perk to even be able to play the game without getting sick is not an argument at all, especially the part about colourblind mode earlier... You would have just kept that thing as a perk because it is a balancing issue... If we can even consider this a buff it would be really minor over all...
Post edited by EQWashu on1 -
I don't really see how spine chill as basekit only the part that tells you how close the terror radius is would be that much of an issue? I mean you could even argue about making it less specific... Let's just give it 4 states... full 3/4 2/4 1/4 ... I'll exclude 0 because then the killer is right on top of you so why even bother... I would actually like that idea to have a clue of how close the killer is... I don't see a need to keep that bound to a perk and I also don't think it would be that much of a buff... I mean you can already somewhat tell how close the killer is... And when you don't know the exact distance (so it could be used while looping tiles to know if he is doubling back or coming from a different direction) I don't really see a reason not to implement this... But hey feel free to further elaborate why it would not be a good idea... Because I think if basekit changes improve the game why not just make them.
Yeah sure accessibility does not go above everything but then again the FOV really is not that much of a deal... Nobody wants to give you 360° or something odd like that... They could even test certain things lets say 100° 95° and so on... I don't really know how much is sufficient for most people so maybe just try it out... Also the audacity to claim one side that this whole FOV slider would be a major game change but keeping it as a perk is no issue at all... What is this double standard dude xD It's like saying I can tolerate game breaking stuff as long as it's bound to a perk... This is ridiculous guys xD
So since you don't want this to be in the game since it removes some techs record some videos of showing how a window tech doesn't work or whatever or find something on youtube about that because otherwise I cannot take that serious anymore... We arguing about a simple option... That would be like saying Anti-Aliasing shouldn't be a thing because the game does not have it currently as an option to get rid of blurryness... It perplexes me that you guys think of this as such a big deal... I played Nurse with shadowborn when I first learned her and stopped it because I kept misjudging the distance and it was easier to estimate it properly without it... So I for sure would be one of the people that would not touch that FOV slider at all... Even if you think it gives an objective benefit, when it does not work for someone and they play better/more comfortable without it then why not...
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It's a flashlight buff which is needed imo, the addons should be updated as well. shadowborn is not a strong perk mainly because it's just the accessibility feature for this games killer FOV which is sad.
awhile back I suggested already that this game should have a 5th slot for hexes and boons. but CoH being basekit is far more extreme then having shadowborn taking it's rightful place as a slide in the settings since one does nothing and the other gives unlimited heals until the killer finds it and there could be four.... if you'd suggested Bond or something similar to being basekit for survivor i'd agree 100%
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I wanted to illustrate my point. Of course I will pick something ridiculous, because it shows the point well. The point being - flash save downside does exist, but being able to see more then you do now more then makes up for it.
I don't know precise numbers. I don't know if your version of spine chill would be enough for it to be basekit. I know that window techs and similiar stuff work right now even among best 1% of players (and I would argue that it works better here then in low elo). I also know at minimum 1 person with 100% certainty that takes shadowborn on blight and another 2 that consider it very useful perk on some killers (but I don't know if they are using it) - all of those very strong players that don't suffer from motion sickness.
The point is, that more FOV provides benefit that "healthy" people will use their perk slot on. Meaning the perk is clearly not just accessibility (and sure I heared M&A being mentioned too and not just for TR - which does not help with motion sickness as it changes FOV dynamically). And I will not argue with you that 15 degrees is enough for a perk slot, because I don't really use the perk. Maybe the perk needs buff - and allow you pick how much extra FOV to get.
But current vision is 100% downside that has an effect on a game big enough for some killers to pick it even if motion sickness is not a factor. Meaning you change a chunk of a game and hope it makes no difference (just health one for small part of players), when there are subtle tells (but I will grant also no certainties) this will not be a case. So from my POW if we risk breaking part of the game for everyone just to give free boost to a few killers that need a perk - did we do a good deal?
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We definitely disagree over the idea that a universal FOV slider would ruin game balance. It wouldn't. If it were as strong as you imply, every killer would be running Shadowborn.
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You misunderstood. It's not ruining the game, because it would be too strong. It's ruining the game, because it removes options. Would it be too OP if all trash-pallet-filler loops got removed and some got swapped for good pallets? Probably not. Most killers can play around them. But the game would loose part of skill expression. There would not be something where survivor needs to outplay killer to remain safe. Just judge your distance correctly and that's it.
This is same situation. Ability for survivor to hide mid-chase is another option that is part of skill expression. And you want it reduced, because some people get motion sickness AND are not willing to "pay" for game advantage that will also help them with their condition.
Or to say it in different way - bamboozle as a perk is fine. But making it basekit is not. Because it provides too good advantage for killer to get it for free.
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Have you ever actually played with Shadowborn? The FOV increase doesn't make as much of a difference to whether people can hide or not as you're thinking. To put it another way, all it really makes a change to in practice is the very rare case someone tries to go round a tight corner and hide and the Killer doesn't look anyway (and another 8 degrees or so of horizontal vision in that one direction doesn't even guarantee it).
It actually has more effect on how much you can see further away, but does absolutely nothing about LOS blockers (and you trade off some ability to judge distances and fine detail because now more is in the same screen area).
Seriously, an FOV increase works something like this. It has its least impact close up, which is where you're focusing all the concern.
(As for the motion sickness, I don't know the exact why behind it, but I think it has something to do with how much the background starts moving for relatively low movements--it's much more like being spun around).
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