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Black locks are bad for the game.
Now I know you've heard every killer complain about the hatch, but honestly I think it is more detrimental to survivors than anything. If a team is doing poorly against a killer a lot of immersed gamers will just wait around for their team that is actually trying to die so they can get the hatch/door escape. I think having this system in place is an encouragement to not work as a team. I feel like an easy fix for this would be to make hook timers slow when a killer is within a certain range and remove the hatch as an escape option. More issues would arise to need fixing however I think overall this would improve the soloq experience.
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If hatch is removed, ceteris paribus, the only thing that'll happen is that stealth when 2 survivors, and when 1 survivor, remains will increase tenfold, dragging out the game needlessly and just plummeting the enjoyment of any endgame scenarios.
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You know what's bad for the game? Hopeless matches. You remove the hatch and you crush what little hope the last survivor has left, why should they do anything but come to you to die?
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But at least the killer won't get robbed as much anymore of their deserved 4k just because of random rng with hatch... only door rng stays... well better than nothing I guess...
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The hatch's sole purpose is to allow the game to progress and end instead of having a survivor hiding forever.
Either the survivor takes it, ether the killer closes it and the game will end in the next four minutes or so.
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Remove the hatch and you remove the incentive to keep playing the game if survivors had an early DC or someone hard tunneled.
If that comes to be, they should put an option to surrender or DC would be rampant.
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How about we change that... When only one survivor is left and the gates are not opened yet killers and survivors aura are revealed to each other until a chase is started (ignoring stealth mechanics so ghostface cannot just oneshot you as that would counteract the following idea completely...) When the chase starts a timer starts and the bp you get during that time is doubled, and if you survive the time (that depends on the killer you are going against... so maybe less time against blight nurse or spirit...) you will get like 5-10k bp? Somthing massive like that to motivate players to try their best in the final chase... But no matter what the game ends after the timer ends. You could even argue about restoring some pallets so it does not just end in 30 seconds if your team already wasted everything...
That way the killer doesn't have to sweat for the 4k with slugging and so on and the survivor can get something out of it as well... I would say it is even up for debate to just give the survivor an automatic escape if the killer cannot hit/down them during duration of that event... But that would put some killers at a disadvantage... Could be annoying for Hag or Trapper for example :/ You cannot really make them go where you trapped necessarily...
The specifics are up for debate, but what I want in general is less rng and something else than hatch... A killer that already got 3 guys without the gates being opened shouldn't loose the fourth just because of bad luck... And what this would do as well is when you are the one guy that survived because the killer gave up chase on you everytime, because you were not the weak link than you have choice to escape by just playing better than the killer in a situation where he has nothing else to do but chase you...
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That seems a bit complicated. The hatch is a very good KISS example. I don't see a reason to make it more difficult.
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The good reason is that it is rng heavy and annoying for both sides... Also patrolling gates is on of the most annoying things to do... Even if the gates are not entirely bad (in a way where you can never patrol them effectively) ... It is still so much around luck...
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Honestly, I feel like the game needs to be rebalanced so that it isn't a death sentence for the Survivors if you start losing Survivors before the last gen. Then we can rebalance the Killer accordingly and then make it so games aren't as likely to either be a curbstomp in either direction.
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The random factor isn't that different from other things in the game. And it fits its purpose. As for "annoying", this is a point of view I suppose.
I kind of like the search for the hatch, any side, although at least for the survivor side I have other options.
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Why not just take a normalization approach, and have survivors start weaker than they currently are, but lose less strength with each person down/out? The game is currently designed around lopsided advantage starting with survivors having the lead and killer gaining it as the match goes on, with both sides fighting over how fast the dynamic shift occurs in relation to their respective objectives being completed. 3 gens being done by the time the first survivor is hooked and 2 survivors being virtually unable to finish the 3 remaining gens are two halves of the same issue.
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Could we make it so the Survivors grow stronger with each knockout instead?
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compared to how it goes now, that would be the case. losing less strength means that their impact would be stronger on an individual level than it is now, kind of like the effect of the perks that amplify things based on number of dead teammates.
The idea is that if its supposed to be 1 : (.25) x4 in terms of impact, it would kind of shift like 1 : (.33) x 3, 1 : (.5) x2, etc. This of course only works if the entire scale of survivor numbers is properly balanced, so it would require baseline adjustments for how strong the normalized survivor strength is to the point where neither side is in clear advantage, so the baseline would be somewhere around where 3 survivors alive currently is (or more specifically somewhere around 3.25.)
But in the end, the idea is that the game would theoretically, at all points in time, avoid having efficiency cap related advantage in either direction.
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"of their deserved 4k" you don't deserve anything. you failed to catch the final survivor in time.
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There are some times when you physically cannot catch the fourth survivor... Because hatch spawned literally under there feet... Also why should the last survivor even have the possibility to get hatch at all? Your entire team is dead, given that you didn't finish all gens and open the gate you clearly lost... So why should you deserve to escape? You failed to accomplish the objective to deserve the escape... Escaping by pure luck from a killer who outperformed you and hindered you from reaching your objective does not seem fair to me... If you as killer reached the goal of not letting survivors finish all gens you deserve to get all 4 of them generally speaking...
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To be fair, the final survivor doesn't deserve a hatch escape if they were waiting out their teammates dying and it spawned under their feet.
The mechanic really should have some form of condition involving earning it. Maybe something like the hatch spawns closed and both players can see its aura, but a key also spawns somewhere on the map which neither can see. If the survivor gets the key, the EGC starts and the gates are powered, while the key can also be used on the hatch to give a three-way shell game of possibilities for the last escape attempt.
Not a complete idea, but neither side inherently deserves anything when it comes to the hatch, and people always seem to whatabout each other involving it when its really just rng picking whether the last person lives or dies.
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Well yeah the hatch is supposed to be RNG, it isn't supposed to be an auto-win for the last survivor, but it's a chance, and an incentive to keep playing.
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Hatch is there to stop the last Survivor from holding the game until the end of times, its a benefit for both sides.
There was a time where Hatch would only spawn after 2 gens were finished and if the Killer managed to kill 3 Survivors before those 2 gens were done the last guy could hold you in the game for hours, Ive been there and I used to slow down if I was stomping too hard to avoid having to look for the last person forever, I think my personal record was around 25 minutes or so.
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I've been saying this for the longest.
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On the off chance they do the gens and get at least 1 out? There's plenty of loops to drag a chase out for that long. You never know unless you try.
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And we have received the EGC since those days. Its design and function are antiquated even with having been updated within the past few years, it needs to be updated in a way that ties in with the rest of the game evolving around it, instead of just being a coin flip on who is within audible range of its spawn.
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Why are second chance perks disabled in endgame?
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Because they basically guaranteed a free escape when you manage to unhook the person... With BT and proper play you can still get people out...
Also I don't just want to get rid of hatch and do nothing about the hopelessness of the last survivor... But I want there to be some other interaction than just patrolling two points or luck based finding or not finding hatch... Just some fun chase interaction to finish the game off would be great in my opinion, that's what was the thing I wanted to adress with my idea.
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Yeah, I could get behind that.
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90% of the time, we're not asking for the removal of hatch full stop. Obviously there would be a replacement endgame mechanic. Force the survivors to do something, like showing their aura if they don't progress the game at all for too long. Anything but a free escape please.
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My point is even if second chance perks guarantee a escape in endgame, that would still be the killer's fault for letting the survivors reach said state of the game. Yet, those perks are still disabled.
Your previous point as why a survivor can escape from hatch if he/she performed bad during the game is the same as why a killer can avoid second chamce perks if he also played bad.
Because there must always be incentive to keep playing, even if it means a surv getting an undeserved escape or a killer getting an easy kill.
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If survivors do all gens and killer has not managed to 3 hook one single survivor thne killer should leave them go. Why do end-game perks exist for Killers? Just let survivors get their well deserved 4 escape.
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You do realize that no kills or escapes are necessarily deserved..... right?
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I would agree for NOED, as I think it rewards players for playing poorly and still managing to get more out of it than they deserve, however other endgame perks only delay the game for some time, that could have also been achieved at a different point in the game... Therefore I cannot entirely agree with it... If we consider no way out or remember me... That delay you got there could have also been ruin, or pain rez or whatever... whereas I don't think those kind of perks are comparable to noed...
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I don't care your point about ruin and pain res. Care to clarify? I understand they delay gens but how is that related to end-game? If the gens are done, those perks are irrelevant. Is that what you mean? So you compensate with other end game perks?
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Yes not necessarily... But generally speaking... The majority of games you hopefully don't get camped, if I'm wrong with that I admire your willpower XD what I want to say is the large majority of games where someone gets a 3 k they hopefully didn't get it with cheap tricks... And even with noed, which I consider a rather cheap trick the point is the killer will usually camp or slug and not necessarily be able to protect his totem and the gates as well... So in those cases the hatch usually won't help you much anyway... For my idea with the certain amount of chase time till the game ends I would even think about deactivatingsome perks that otherwise reduce it too much... Like NOED, Devour or sth. like that... probably not all chase perks, but at least the exposed ones I guess, but as for everything else this is also up for debate.
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The EGC is an entirely different phase of the game, so thats not exactly an accurate point. Its also not even a one sided situation: Perks like adrenaline proc when the hatch is closed as well, even though the kill was all but secured at that point.
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DC alredy is rampant rn tbh. However i agree on removing hatch would be bad.
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What I wanted to say is that a perk that delays the lenght of the game for a certain amound, like Grim Embrace, No way out, deadlock and so on... They all just delay the game but the time at which they delay the game varies... So does it really matter if the game is dealyed for 1 minute while you still need to work gens (Grim Embrace) or when the gens are done and the gates get blocked (No way out) ... Yes I know the conditions to activate are different, but I hope you understand what I wanted to say... It does not really matter at which point in the game the 1 minute delay happens, as long as it does happen...
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People DC for a large amound of reasons, I find some valid others not... But I don't think we can ever have a game where nobody dcs... Even in other games that are considered fairly balanced people dc for no apparent reason.
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It takes a minimum of 180 seconds to do all 5 gens, just based off of raw manpower. You only need (90 x 2) to complete that objective, no perks/items/addons/anything. There is a reason the gates being powered/EGC is considered a phase of the game and not the game already being over, because the objective to get there is hilariously short when not accounting for the other factors involved.
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Ignoring time walking from spawn to gen to next gen to gate and so on, but yeah.
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That was why I said "when not accounting for the other factors involved." Its also not accounting for the TTD of any chases, perks, items, etc. It has massive variance in either direction, the point is that the baseline outside of those factors is not in any way intended to be the entire match.
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DCing is never valid.
unless private live needs your attention.
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One is made by the killer performing well, hence the survivors are mostly dead and one looks for hatch.
The other is by the survivors performing well, so the killer tries to get one kill.
They are not so different from each other
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If there is no hatch and there are any generators left and only 1 survivor left as soon as the killer finds them they are guaranteed dead. They would literally have no hope to survive. The best they could do is drag out the match with their last chase. Worst case scenario is they don't get found, hide and try to hold the killer in the game for as long as possible.
The off chance you speak of is such a longshot it's not relevant.
All of these "delete hatch" threads never suggest a replacement mechanic so you're full of it.
The last survivor somehow managed to outlast the other survivors. Unless they hid all match and did nothing it's not a free escape.
The alternative is the killer gets the last kill for free, is that so much better?
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Apples and Oranges are also both fruit, and aren't so different from each other when framed as such.
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Really, they are the same situation, just changing the one that is winning
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The existence of perks on both sides that work when the gens are powered, or the EGC starts by any means, means that your oversimplification is completely inaccurate. You're welcome to lie to yourself, but don't expect others to agree.
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You probably know this better than me but EGC has not always been part of the game, and hatch mechanics have been different. If killers feel they are robbed because of hatch how is it any different than me feeling I'm robbed if I don't get to escape or get a 4E when the majority of the match the killer has been outplayed by the survivors, meaning he is outskilled. The survivors earned it from my point of view and maybe if no one has been sacrificed at that point, then exiting gates should be made easier for survivors as opposed to having to deal with more stuff. Is it radical? Yes, am E really a supporter of it, maybe not really. I'm simply throwing ideas because end game can be a turning point for survivors when all the while they've been doing good. It like been punished for doing well 90% of the game for doing one mistake (if you wanna go with NOED) and same with killers feeling they deserve 4k if they down the majority of survivors before all gens are done. Both are feelings of entitlement really.
Many games have comeback mechanics truth be told cause you don't want your game to be decided at a certain point. For killers it's possible to come back from a bad game by bringing certain perks in the end-game. For survivors doing bad, we all know the infamous slug for the 4k when 2 are left. So when 2 are left there are not really any comeback mechanics that can level the field really and as we know Hatch is a consolation prize at best. SO a killer who has taken out 2 weak links but not bothered with the 2 others who might be strong may as well have won the game, he really just bypassed going against the more difficult ones but currently we're ok with that. Those 2 survivors will have to sweat their balls off if they want to tie, there are no mechanics that actually help them come back from that.
In other games you do have come back mechanics, or the games have evolved to allow them, I'm of course referring to PvP games as well.
If we take League as an example (I have no idea if you have ever played) if I'm doing superwell, I get a bounty on my head. That means I am worth more so if I make a mistake and die, then the team can receive resources directly form me (as in gold). That can also be made even worse if I die to a certain character who benefits immensely from that gold (like a carry) and now they've somewhat begun leveling the field again since more gold means more items to buff your powers.
One good comeback mechanic for survivors when killer is snowballing would be either to get gen-speed or the infamous basekit unbreakable. I personally would be for it if it became available when 2 survivors were left. As it is now, the killer can just slug and go look for the other or wait for them to make an appearance trying to heal their downed teammate, so the pressure falls hugely on the shoulders of the survivors. With basekit unbreakable killer has to weigh in if he wants to risk a 4k by slugging if he feels extremely confident or get a guaranteed 3k and find the last one before hatch or instead focus on closing hatch. Currently slugging for the 4k is pretty much superior to the other one and anyone who wishes to 4k should always do it, there are hardly any drawbacks and a small risk of someone bringing Unbreakable. In its current state a killer taking out two survivors early is a guaranteed win. There should be a possibility for the killer to still tie (he's not even losing lol) or else we could make a case for a teammate dying at 5 gens and dooming everyone (I wonder how high the killrate is when a survivor is removed at 5 or 4 gens permanently).
Thing is come back mechanics can be there to stop snowballing and for survivors that is a lot harder than for killer. Like I mentioned killer can still influence end-game and even if he has not done great there are perks that can really turn killer games around because they can apply to all survivors (NOED makes everyone exposed, No way Out blocks everyone from opening a gate), survivors don't have perks that buff everyone at end game, because first of all to get value off of it you actually have to make it to end game while killer will always by default play endgame. And when only 3 survivors are left with a lot of gens to do and they have end game perks equiped they are even more disadvantaged. When 2 are left? Good luck with that.
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None of that has anything to do with what I posted. My post was specifically about the fact that the game is not "over" when the exit gates are powered, because the time to do so is entirely dependent on the factors around it. I have not said anything about how fair or unfair any of the factors surrounding it, nor that it causes, are for either side. All I have said is that the time to complete is actually extremely short for that milestone when looked at completely linear fashion. This is in comparison to 2 minutes of hook time per survivor, while only 3 survivors are needed to achieve peak efficiency (again, disregarding the factors associated on either side.) The numbers game favors the gens being completed inherently, as it is the faster resolution: everything from skill to rng determines the rest.
This is an important consideration because it verifies that the gens being powered is not considered the end of the game, and perks like No Way Out, Remember Me, and Blood Warden are designed specifically to extend the duration of trials after that point. It is true that the survivors generally have reclaimed a degree of advantage compared to the gradual shift the killer has been building up to that point, but said advantage is going to be entirely relative to the status of the survivors (hook states, how many are remaining, etc.)
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so? what you said does not change the fact that killers get awarded with the disable of second chance perks even if they play bad all game. And perks like NOED can easily get them an easy kill in EGC.
So if we were to be truly fair and dont allow for comeback mechanics like hatch to exist, then killers shouldnt receive any benefit in EGC.
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And nothing you have said has equated to killers playing bad the entire game and still getting to the EGC. The killer can be playing just fine but the gens got done in record time due to just mandatory time wasters like safe pallets, time to transport to hooks, etc. This is why the rate of completion at baseline is so important to consider, the killer doesn't have to play bad for 5 gens to get done in less than 5 minutes. You're relying on outcome bias to try to force your point.
I have already also stated that I would much prefer that the hatch be a system that is earned, rather than randomly rewarded. This way the survivor has a fair second chance at it that depends on their skill and ability.
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agreed i have had matches where their are 2 of us left and ill run the killer around for 2 minutes just to find out he was crouching in a corner waiting for me to die across the map with 1 gen left
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Outcome bias? what
I always said that the fact that the hatch exists (and should exist) is to give incentive to the remaining survivors to keep playing the game even in clear uneven odds.
The killers are given an incentive in EGC as i said before where many endgame perks on the killer side are clearly very strong (NOED, No Way out, even terminus to some degree). Yet you are adamant in differenciating these two situations.
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