Is it Time to Remove the Killer’s Red Stain?
I’m wondering if it’s time for it to go? Seeing how advanced our player base is going into 2023, it may be no longer needed. Instead of nerfing/buffing perks, this could be the buff killers need to push the kill rate up to the devs desired number (65% was it?). Mind games at pallets/windows will be tougher for survivors.
I think at the very least this should be experimented within a PTB, like the removal of Bloodlust.
Now I definitely could see an argument for this being too tough on new players. Maybe if a player has less than “X” amount of hours played then they get the benefit of seeing the red stain, and everyone above “X” amount of hours does not.
What are your thoughts? Keep it or remove it?
Comments
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Hours are not a reprisentative of skill
Punishing somebody for playing your game a lot doesn't seem like a good idea
So if it goes it should go completely and that would be harder for newer players who already have it rough against killers and barely make a difference against experienced players as they go against killer who know how to hide their red stain
So pass for me, i think it would do more harm then good
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You still can hide (mind game) the red stain in loops so... I don't think it will make much difference if they completely remove it.
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No. Just no. Big no. N. O.
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I wonder how people come up with these ideas.
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Nah
Red stain is actually why a good chunk of mind games work.
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No.
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I agree, hours are not an absolute indicator of skill- but I didn’t say that. I was speaking of new players. Whatever the value of “X” is, would be up to the devs to decide what is a fair amount of time for a new player to get acclimated to the game’s mechanic’s. And that’s what it’s really all about- someone who has never played before, getting a chance to learn killer movement like everyone before them did. But this doesn’t even have to be the answer. It was just an idea I offered to help new players, and that’s why I prefaced it with “maybe.”
If removing the stain would “barely make(s) a difference against experienced players…,” then how would that be “punishing somebody for playing your game a lot…??”
Some of us try to create topics to create a positive discussion in the section of “General Discussions,” unlike some of the negative passive aggressive members who post in said topics, not adding anything to the discussion. But hey- to each their own right?
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Big no in my opinion. It would completely wreck not only newer but also casual players.
Learning to hide red stain is a part of mindgaming anyway.
I don't think killers need more base kit buffs, at least until solo buffs arrive. I'd much rather have BHVR take the time to actually address each killer's issues through addon passes or reworks than make a general buff and call it a day.
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The punishing for playing the game was towards the removing of the red stain after x hours
Not everyone reaches experienced level of play even after 1000 hours. I would even say the mayority doesn't
I like the red stain as a mechanic, clever killers can even use it to their advantage at places.
If you play ghostface a bit you'll know that not having a red stain really doesn't change that much against good players.
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As others said before the red stain is a really good thing since it gives you the ability to mindgame with it, also removing it would make ghostfaces power less usefull, since it does not exist no anyway. Also different gameplay mechanics for different kind of players sounds terrible, you would not need to bother learning red stain mindgames anymore.
As for bloodlust I think the mechanic should go, as it rewards players for playing terrible, also getting bloodlusted at a rather safe tile for a minute does not really feel good, the killer does not really deserve the hit/down if she just follows you for almost a minute around a tile until he is fast enough for you to not be able to loop it anymore, just a terrible mechanic overall. If you cannot get a hit at a tile with your skill and current movementspeed you kick the pallet and move on. It also hinders players from getting better since they don't need to evaluate how long it would take them to get a hit and if it is worth continuing a chase or kicking the pallet and leaving since they are guaranteed a hit after xy time anyway.
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I respectfully disagree- after 1000 hours in this game, a player is very well experienced. But it’s ok- I understand you don’t like the idea and I respect it. Again, it was just a possible solution I came up with to help new players. Not the end all be all answer for it.
“Learning to hide red stain is a part of mindgaming anyway.” This is true.
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I don’t think you’re intention was positive. I think you just got rolled by a survivor group, and you want to change the game to make it easier for you.
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Last year I played in a SWF with some friends of mine and they had between 1200 and 1500 hours... They didn't even know the basics of looping, all they did was hide xD You cannot tell me those guys were experienced survivors despite having tons of hours... And they played mainly survivor... now Imagine someone playing mostly killer xD
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Not only is hiding your red stain a part of mindgaming, showing your red stain can also be used as a mindgame to bait a vault
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More challenging so yes, a good idea. Having a hard-core mode with mo hud, red stain or TR would be simpler and atleast casual players can continue playing the traditional way
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No way. I honestly would quit if this big a change was made. I'm not a good looper, and barely decent in chase despite 2 years of trying to get better. I play on the Switch and the joycons and camera are terrible. For the limited time i can hold chase, I sometimes rely strongly on every glimpse of red stain i get. I'm pretty sure that's the point of the red strain actually.
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honestly, I'd rather I could actually see it myself. Did this Survivor read the mindgame correctly, or did I move wrong or misjudge something? Impossible to say, no visual feedback on my end. :T
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No , why ? because the game will be even more Unbalanced, Red Stain Is the base of Gameplay
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This would nerf killers on high level gameplay and buff them in low level game.
Kind of the opposite of what you want, so I don't think it's a good idea.
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opposite, it would buff killers at high-level play but do nothing for low-level. a 5 hour survivor is not going to know how to use red glow to there advantage while 5000 hours survivor pays close attention to red glow and uses it to loop. Another one of those hand-holding survivor mechanics.
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The red stain is a big part of looping and mindgames, so I disagree. It should be kept as is.
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I could see them making a self-aware type perk but for red stains.
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This a core chase mechanic, removing this is like getting rid of scratch marks. So no.
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Should scratch marks go?
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The red stain is a core part of the game that should never be changed imo
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beast of the hunt should do that all the time instead of in bloodlust
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While we would love to see this tested at the very least, the stain should stay as new blood gets added all the time and it helps them learn "hey your about to get hurt really really soon unless you do something fast". As much as we dislike hand-holding, there needs to be some for the new people.
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absolutely not. the red stain is an integral part of chases and mind games
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Blindness should hide the red stain
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The Red Stain does nothing other than make the game more tedious at high levels of play. Moon walking isn't really fun. Nor is looking down around corners to fake out survivors.
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I dunno on what level I play. I do know I play mostly against a mixture of competent and very skilled survivors who know all the basics and some more.
My red stain has allowed me to win more than a few mind games against very good players. The knowledge of it existence brings double mind games to the table. When I have undetectable, skilled survivors tend to wait on the safe spots until they can see me, which makes chases longer overall.
Newbie players, as you state don't usually understand or attempt mindgames related to the stain, so the survivor simply gauges the killer distance and movement direction with it. Remove and they will get bamboozled in low visibility loops and get ambushed or camp the pallet like dummies. Which is why undetectable is very strong against new Survivors.
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Mclean who was one of the main game designers (who is no longer with the project) got extremely pissed off whenever anyone mentioned removing the red light.
A very simple fix would be to remove it and allow survivors to "get it back" with a perk. This would mean you must use a perk slot to have the information.
What you mean is: the game works at low levels of play but not high levels because the red light exists.
Another simple fix would be : After hitting MMR rating of 'X' for the first time you don't ever see the red light again.
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"like you can already hide your red stain by moonwalking"
Most loops have no way to hide the information either because the killer is too tall or because the loop has nowhere you can hide the light. Show me on an autohaven tile set where you can do it. Ok how about corn maps? Nope.
But WHY should the killer need to do an extra step and hide their light? As an observer looking at the game for the first time it makes DBD look like you're watching a Scooby Doo chase scene montage.
Seeing the red light is a level of free information that is on the level with :aura reading.
-"Punishing somebody for playing your game a lot doesn't seem like a good idea"
Do you understand the concept of training wheels? The red light mechanic is 100% a hand holding aspect of the game that should "go away" with the option to keep it on - if you still need it.
Looping as a survivor is mostly a joke because you always have this gleaming red light ( that some player abuse but I'm not allowed to elaborate due to moderation) to tell you exactly what to do.
-"So if it goes it should go completely and that would be harder for newer players who already have it rough against killers and barely make a difference against experienced players as they go against killer who know how to hide their red stain"
Low level players dont understand what it means to be that close to the killer nor do they look behind them when looping or throwing pallets.
Again I say: Keep the red light as an option that is always available as a generic level three perk. If you still need the training wheels red light perk bring it - but in so doing you give up a perk slot forever.
That would be fair to the killer.
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Why would we start making basekit mechanics into perks? the red light is fine as it is... No need to do anything there.
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As a thought experiment consider what would happen if there were no red light. What would happen? Which part of the player base would be most affected by it?
The best players would lose the ability to loop as well as they do now and would probably lose 20 or seconds of chase time. The bad players would still loop poorly but be caught a few seconds faster.
What would that do to the game? It would allow you to "standardize" chase time. The game is a complete mess in terms of balance because some people can loop for a minute and some people can loop for 20 seconds before getting hit. Gens are however standardized. The lack of chase standardization is one of the things that holds this game back.
Why would that matter? It would allow you to fine balance chases because you know the best players can only loop for X time. If you still don't understand why this would be good for the game then you need to "sit out".
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Ok so let me get this straight... So first you say most loops don't even give you the option to hide the given information properly because you can be seen anyway, regardless of the red light and you still want it removed why? I mean the generic tiles that spawn on every map like TL Walls are great for hiding your light, same goes for many jungle gyms. By just removing the red light you remove a layer of depth of the game, something that is not required to learn anymore and the survivor now has to guess entirely if the killer will come aroudn the TL wall corner or not, before he at least needed to hide his light and trick the survivor by doing that.
I don't think the red light is training wheels... The red light really does not reach that far so I simply don't understand the issue you have with this mechanic.
Also it would also affect killers in a negative way, by showing or not showing your red light around a TL wall you can make the survivor vault or not vault when pulled off properly, by removing the option you removed an option for the killer to influence survivors behaviour, why would you want that?
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I don't think it will be worth the effort
The kind of survivors killers struggle against are the kind that are used to killers hiding their red stain and don't rely on it. Removing it will do nothing for killers in those matchups
And the survivors that do rely on the killers red stain are the ones who most killers pubstomp anyway
It won't be fair to the killer cause it won't be helping them where they need help
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That is a really stupid explanation... Yes survivor players of different skill levels loop the same killer for a different lenght of time... Artificially making better players worse to fit them in a box with worse players is a terrible idea. Punishing players that actually learned how to play the game just to make it easier to balance, this is really something. If you really wanted to standardize things how about we start with maps and take out some RNG of them? How is cowshed in the same game as shelter woods? How are some maps completely hit or miss when it comes to the map generation and others like cowshed or RPD or the Game are always broken in the same way. If the maps were less random and more equal strenght wise you could balance around that way better, without the need to punish better players.
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"I don't think the red light is training wheels... The red light really does not reach that far so I simply don't understand the issue you have with this mechanic."
So then it won't matter if we remove it. I'm glad you agree. You can't have your argument go both ways - lol.
"Also it would also affect killers in a negative way, by showing or not showing your red light around a TL wall you can make the survivor vault or not vault when pulled off properly, by removing the option you removed an option for the killer to influence survivors behaviour, why would you want that?"
This is incorrect and it is telling that you don't understand this. Survivors have the ability via perfect positioning on blind loops to avoid a hit by standing in the correct place and waiting. Removing the red light would delete these safe zones.
You know how a Huntress can zone you at a T/L? Well now all killers would be able to do that because you dont have omniscience about where they are coming from.
Overall the killer would be much less predictable which would raise your adrenaline levels while being chased to something that you might not have felt back since your first month as survivor.
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"So then it won't matter if we remove it. I'm glad you agree. You can't have your argument go both ways - lol."
It is a base mechanic that can be used for mindgames, why would you want to remove it??
"This is incorrect and it is telling that you don't understand this. Survivors have the ability via perfect positioning on blind loops to avoid a hit by standing in the correct place and waiting. Removing the red light would delete these safe zones."
Elaborate further? If you are basically right behind them and don't how your redlight, which makes them run further and not take the vault at the T wall and then you come around the corner you can hit them before they can reach the vault of the L wall... so what do you exactly mean?
"Overall the killer would be much less predictable which would raise your adrenaline levels while being chased to something that you might not have felt back since your first month as survivor."
Great, I always wanted my game to be a flip of a coin instead of proper action and reaction with some mindgames...
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Your argument makes zero sense.
Removing the red light vs bad players wont' do much - ok this is correct.
Removing the red light vs good players wont do anything. This is wrong because most skilled survivors depend on the light mechanic to know where to go in a chase. You would have to 50/50 guess every time. That's the problem with DBD in that you never really have to guess at most 50/50 events which is why survivors can loop for 40-60 seconds without getting hit which breaks the game at high levels of play.
There is a paradox in DBD that you're supposed to get caught making mistakes when the killer forces you into a 50/50 event. The red light prevents you from making the wrong choice. A perfect example is the killer shack. Everyone knows how to loop it because they can see the red light. Remove the gaps and remove the red light and suddenly that building becomes a blind 50/50 event.
The devs were laughing with their faces when they said : just do a mind game. This was because they knew that their game design didn't really allow for killers to perform a "fair" 50/50 mind game at most loops.
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"This is wrong because most skilled survivors depend on the light mechanic to know where to go in a chase. You would have to 50/50 guess every time. "
How is it something else than a 50 50 when the killer is hiding his red light at a TL wall? He is either doubling back or he is moonwalking and coming around the corner to hit you?? How can skilled survivors rely on the red light in this scenario when there are two outcomes which both involve not seeing a red light??
"A perfect example is the killer shack. Everyone knows how to loop it because they can see the red light. Remove the gaps and remove the red light and suddenly that building becomes a blind 50/50 event."
Or you can just moonwalk around the corner and try to get a hit? But good survivors will just wait at a safe spot until you enter and then take the vault last second, so your argument makes no sense here...
"The devs were laughing with their faces when they said : just do a mind game. This was because they knew that their game design didn't really allow for killers to perform a "fair" 50/50 mind game at most loops."
How is hiding your red light at a TL wall something else than a 50 50 ... You are not making sense at all...
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Let's look at the sequence of the discussion.
- You said you can just moonwalk.
- I said that doesn't work on most of the game tiles
- You said that doesn't matter and suddenly flip flopped. I called you out for flipping and then:
- You wanted to pull a reverse as if I changed my position when in fact I have the same position.
- You are the one who suddenly suggested the right light "isn't a big deal" but were adamant enough about not wanting it to be changed that you made a post to state your opinion against the idea.
The red light gives a ton of free information that should be turned into a perk. This would make the best survivors "lose one perk" or make them weaker in loops. It would not hurt low/middle skill players. That's exactly what DBD needs to make killers like Trapper viable (along with that you nerf Nurse/blight because they are too good and SWF too).
Using my quote against me doesn't really work. I said the red light gives a ton of free information : which is far better than most of the aura reading perks in terms of information. You're trying to say that it isn't a big deal so we shouldn't bother changing anything.
-"That is a really stupid explanation... Yes survivor players of different skill levels loop the same killer for a different lenght of time... Artificially making better players worse to fit them in a box with worse players is a terrible idea"
Most games do this to the top 10% of players who are in some cases 50% to 100% better than everyone else. They level out the top possible skill so the best player are still the best but they make them only roughly 20-40% better than everyone else. World of Tanks is a perfect example (remember DBD follow the FTP model too). Good players turned their tanks in response to enemy barrel movements to make enemy shots bounce. It was very common for good players to only get hit about 20% of the time when in 1v1 combat with lesser skilled players. Meanwhile 80% of their shots would hurt the enemy. The result was that you regularly had "unicorn" players who killed 5 tanks per battle. This completely broke the game in terms of the business model because these highly skilled players actually could play for free. They were almost unbeatable by another unicorn and made the game really unfun for the average player.
Back to DBD : why should you ever play trapper IF you want to win games and complete challenges since Blight Nurse exist - Assuming you can play all three very well? There is a very real problem with DBD in that most of the killers have a skill cap that is surpassed by survivors who have more play time and are better players. Nurse and Blight are free of that restriction. If you want to flip a magic switch and turn that off post the idea. Blow my mind. Otherwise the very simple fix is : turn off the red light "for free" information and let people keep it if they think it is worth a perk slot.
Alternatively we could just make the rule : Every killer except the best two killers has no red stain as incentive to make people want to play those killers instead.
"If you really wanted to standardize things how about we start with maps and take out some RNG of them? How is cowshed in the same game as shelter woods? How are some maps completely hit or miss when it comes to the map generation and others like cowshed or RPD or the Game are always broken in the same way."
This is a coherent argument and a very good point (on which I agree). DBD should not have maps that are designed to be unfair to most of the killers unless we are also willing to have maps that are also unfair to survivors. Did you know for example that the original shelter woods had a 76% kill rate? Even in the era of "infinite windows" it was a death trap because there were very few pallets (almost all were unsafe) and there were very few windows to attempt a window infinite.
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"Let's look at the sequence of the discussion.
- You said you can just moonwalk.
- I said that doesn't work on most of the game tiles
- You said that doesn't matter and suddenly flip flopped. I called you out for flipping and then:
- You wanted to pull a reverse as if I changed my position when in fact I have the same position.
- You are the one who suddenly suggested the right light "isn't a big deal" but were adamant enough about not wanting it to be changed that you made a post to state your opinion against the idea.
"
I said it isn't a big deal on tiles that already provide you with vision of the killer, because they are like the tiles on Azarovs all low from a height perspective... I however said, that it is usefull for example at shack or TL walls, which are tiles that basically spawn on most maps.
"Using my quote against me doesn't really work. I said the red light gives a ton of free information : which is far better than most of the aura reading perks in terms of information. You're trying to say that it isn't a big deal so we shouldn't bother changing anything."
The killer could still moonwalk if you did in fact bring the perk, so why would you ever bring the perk...
"Most games do this to the top 10% of players who are in some cases 50% to 100% better than everyone else. They level out the top possible skill so the best player are still the best but they make them only roughly 20-40% better than everyone else."
That does not apply to an asymmetrical game however... In World of Tanks or most games people will have the same tools against each other, and probably also a working matchmaking system, both of which DBD does not have. So this is just not comparable...
If you seriously don't play a killer because you like his mechanic but because he is strong and you just like to win, then you are not playing the game for its own sake and fun but just for the good feeling of winning, and I find that really sad.
"This is a coherent argument and a very good point (on which I agree). DBD should not have maps that are designed to be unfair to most of the killers unless we are also willing to have maps that are also unfair to survivors. Did you know for example that the original shelter woods had a 76% kill rate? Even in the era of "infinite windows" it was a death trap because there were very few pallets (almost all were unsafe) and there were very few windows to attempt a window infinite."
No wonder, people had no idea how the game worked back then, that's the only reason why survivors did not win every game...
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Sounds like killers are just getting lazy now. Recently killers had their entire basekit buffed while survivor was mostly nerfed. This was to shakeup the meta. Now killers tunnel and camp more than ever and still use at least one slowdown, usually more.
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Since the slowdown perks are still overall better than the chase perks no wonder... It is sad but oftentimes people will go the most boring but most efficient way... Really sad :/
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Ah yes survivor was "buffed" so much relative to killer last patch that Otz decided to "take the gloves off" because he was more frustrated than ever at the state of play. Remember this is a 9k hour player who is no longer playing "nice" due to recent game changes because if he does he will lose/have extremely frustrating games.
Overall lower tier players and mid tier players have a better experience with the 6.0 changes but the game is definitely worse for killer at the upper end of play (and got even worse by the 6.4 patch that nerfed Wesker/MM/Legion by proxy and by that time introduced a perk to finish generators in 40-50 seconds).
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Okay survivor
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That has nothing to do with killer or survivor, cutting down base game mechanics to re introduce them as perks is just plain stupid.
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Lots and lots of whippets
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