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Generators need a cooldown when kicked (gen rush / tapping nerf)
Generator tapping (being able to just slightly touch the gen and stop the regression) is the most unfair game mechanic that survivors abuse I have seen in my sort time playing this game and it usually puts the killer in a lose/lose situation:
Whether you choose to stop and kick the gen or start chasing one of them right away you are giving the others survivors a lot of distance / the chance to hide close to the gen (if they didn't do it already the moment they hear the first heartbeat). Then you have two options, either you start / continue chasing one of the survivors that are half the map away now (and more than probably have all the speed boost and second chances perks there is), making you lose time and give the others the chance to simply continue repairing with almost no progress lost, or you try to search for the one hiding and if you are lucky to find and chase him, one of the others that is seeing all of this happening in the distance will come and start repairing again... making you lose time and give them the chance to simple continue repairing with almost no progress lost. And they will keep doing this in every single gen, more so if they are SWF with voicetalk (and you can notice when even just two people are coordinating).
And this is if they are two or more on one gen, but the most frustrating thing of this game mechanic abuse is when mid-chase they would just gently touch the generator and undo the breaking, or even worse, complete an almost repaired gen and continue running. This should be nerfed, like, right now.
Luckily, it has a simple solution: Generator break cooldown. And it can be implemented in two ways:
· When a killer breaks a generator, the generator can't be interacted with during 20-30 seconds. During this time the gen won't lose progress and perks that affect broken generators won't activate.
· A start-up time after a generator is broken. This mean survivors need to repair for at least 10 seconds straight to undo the broken state and can start gaining progress again. This time can be reduced with perks / multiple survivors doing it and the gen don't lose progress while it's being done, but if you stop mid start-up progress you need to start over again (i.e if you stop the start-up with 6 seconds done, that time is lost and you need to do it for 10 seconds again).
Both this options should not only help stopping the gen tapping and the false perception of "gen rushing", but also give more value to kicking a gen as a killer, making having separated gens with long distance in the end game less of a punish (reason of why some killers just decide to stick to one part of the map with close up generators), and making the game more fun and interesting as survivors would need to move more instead of just sticking by a gen or be a time-loosing bait for the killer.
Comments
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Gen tapping was already nerfed with a base instant gen regression on kicks that was added
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A 2.5% progression lost is nothing, and the problem is the fact that a survivor needs less of a second to stop the regression, not the amount of progress loss itself.
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It can really add up if they keep trying to stop the regression you can take 10% off in a very short time if they keep tapping it.
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As @Simfeliz said you would only be wasting time, get grounded to that one generator and the moment you start chasing one of the survivors they will only keep fixing it or just tap to stop regression and go elsewhere,and before you know it 2-3 gens done or almost done. In fact, when I started playing I didn't even notice kicking the gen removed progress until I saw it was something they added in the last patch.
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So you want to camp your gens, not commit to chases and when all the gens are regressed you want to be able to then start the chase. If that doesn't work, you would just return and regress all gens again.
Basically you want killers to win if they are good enough to eventually win or at least to never loose, because they could hold the game hostage.
This is killer holding the game hostage. Very unhealthy for the game. It's the same thing as survivors hiding in obscure parts of map not working on generator. Bad for a game.
Survivors should be able to always progress gens, but it should take long enough for killer to be able to go for chases and if he succeeds at them, he will win (and if he fails those chases, he should loose instead of holding it forever).
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And that is precisely the problem, even when the killer go for a chase, success or not and more so if he commits to it, he is losing. In fact and as I said, he is losing whenever he commit to the chase or if he decide to camp the gens, as someone would just tap the gen and undo the kicking the moment he just turn around.
And you are making a lot of assumptions here. There is 7 generators at the start of the game, because one or two were incapacitated won't take the game hostage, just force survivors to not gangbang one generator until is done and have to move to the next or waste time by waiting close to the one you just broke down (in fact, would help with the 3 gen "hostage" situation as the killer would have the opportunity to not care about the gens for a short time and go for the chasing instead of only having the safe and good option of patrolling them). And my other suggestion, the start-up time, technically would make repair times longer as you say with the added benefit of preventing the "tap and hide", also giving killers the possibility to commit even more to chasing survivors and not having to drop it after 20 seconds because "sure they are repairing that almost done gen again" and having to go kicking it for the 5º time to gain a couple of seconds more.
So what I want is precisely to be able to commit to survivors chases and not having to scare them off the same gens every 5 seconds, so I don't fully understand what is your complain here.
BTW, "you want killers to win if they are good enough to eventually win" lol yeah, I want killers good enough to win win and not lose because survivors abuse game mechanics... crazy, I know.
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No I said you want win or possibility to take the game hostage but never loose. That is problem. You are problem as you want such an interactions.
Also in my killer games (which is something that I do much more now than survivor, because survivor now got crazy tryhard stressful to actually have a chance to open a gate every 3rd game at best) I have no problem commiting to chase and wining the game if I chase correctly. To be frank it's quite easy from 6.1 onwards. And to fully clarify - now I am getting survivors which play survivor better then I do - even if I have 1/5th of my survivor hours on killers (and play multiple killers). And I still win more then I loose - even though I don't camp or tunnel. Even if I can't use every subtle mechanics of the game (like noticing all the crows that flew back and chasing accordingly). Killers are dead easy right now. Because holding 3gen (not indefinitely, but long enough to hook someone multiple times) is so easy. But then again I understand that I will not win every game with 7 unrepaired gens. I don't mind that in first chase there's a very good possibility 1 gen will pop. I know that the game will get much slower when 1 person will be in chase, 1 would be slugged or healing, 1 would be hooked and only 1 would be on a generator. And I know that if my chase takes 2 minutes to down a survivor, then I am loosing and it's normal for survivors to actually earn that win. But it's rare that they are able to do something with all the killer buffs developers are silently doing
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I want those interactions... because you say I want those interactions even after explaining in detail how I don't want them and how what I suggest would not have that effect? Please, explain to me how do you come to that conclusion even after explaining it in detail to you and how what I'm proposing is going to provoke "such an interactions". It would be great if you can also even try to contra-argument any of the things I have said to you in my response to your assumptions instead of just trying to lecture an Iridescent Rank 1 killer on how to be a good one with "I play as killer couple of times, killer op not buff".
Being killer is not easy, is stressful and frustrating, and as I have the same conversation with someone in another post I'm going to copypaste my answers to you because you are making exactly the same arguments (survivor mentality, I guess):
'And all you said about "what makes a good killer" is true and that's how it has to be in theory (again, Iridescent Rank 1 killer here! I didn't get it by not getting people in loops!)... that doesn't mean the game isn't unbalanced by design, and the way the game works right now all the pressure and all the odds are against the killer. And all of this without taking in count perks, tools and map generation, which only makes things worst and/or directly allows survivors to nullify killers good doing."
"You win most your games as I win mine: Not all players are good, not all players have the right build, not all the players are coordinated full SWF with voice talk, and all players sooner or later will make a mistake no matter how skillful they are. This doesn't means that there isn't core game mechanics that maybe worked fine in the past, but right now only let survivors abuse them and get an unfair advantage.'
And about the 3gen "hostage" situation:
'Why I would try to go chase someone, even less with just 1 gen to go, when that is giving them the chance to start a gen with me not being able to stop them to be repaired even for a second? Even if two survivors are left, the moment I chase one the other would repair, I stop the chase, patrol gens, see one is being repaired, kick it, and again, the lose / lose situation: Go search for the one I was chasing and give the one that is probably hiding close to the gen to keep repairing, or stay, search around the gen, find and chase the one hiding, pray he doesn't tap the gen in his run away, and while all this is happening give the other survivor the chance to start repairing other gen or come to the one I was and continue repairing, either way is back to the same situation as before... hell no, if I get to have 3 close up gen I will keep patrolling them even if I see a survivor in the distance, and if they make a mistake and I'm able to hook them great, if not, 1 hour game and I didn't win, but I didn't lose either. It's shifting the pressure back to the survivors and is the smart thing to do and because how the game works right now, it's the only safe choice to make for the killer here. Even if I wanted to go after someone in that situation, doing it would only give them a chance to win. This is also the reason perks like CoB is so much used, because it give me the option to not having to care about the gens for a while at least.'
And it is why my suggestion would help even with the 3gen holding situation, because... :
'[...] what is a thing and it is the core to much of the things survivors and killers complain alike is what the game allow survivors do and abuse which leads to the previously mentioned situations (one of the big ones, if not the biggest there is right now, again, is what I already said many times including my first comment and a post I made earlier) , which forces killers to tunnel to get a survivor out of the picture as soon as possible, force them to slug them if they can't reach a hook because it is better to have them bleeding on the ground and lose points if they don't get back up that making you lose more time, and unless you can do any of this things forces you to keep an eye on the generators and hope you get an easy kill instead of going after the survivors because every second a generator get progress is a second you are more close to lose, which again, leads to lose / lose situations for the killer the majority of the time, including what people call "gen rushing".'
Now, I hope your next answer has some more argumentation.
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I am iri1 killer for 2 weeks now. What's that supposed to mean? Being iri1 is easy. Especially if you don't play soloQ (because in solo you can depip when your team decides to throw, not unhook you or you are tunneled from the 1st second of game). You can be straight up bad and still be iri1. Because it mostly depends on how much you play (sure if you are really bad and just facecamp all games, you will not get to iri ranks, but if you have at least mediocre-to-bad skill, you will eventually reach it). And "couple of times" means I still have about 50hrs on killer for this month only.
Your argument is, all odds are against killer, because I said so ™. From what I can see from my games, it's the other way around. Survivors sweat their asses off. There's never been so many BNP's and violet medkit+styptic/syringe since patch 6.1. And still killers have 60% kill rate. And if this does not work, then let's camp and tunnel - because anyone can do that and it's sure fire way how to quickly win it all. And suddenly you can encounter a pig that has no clue what "mindgame" is, killer players that say looping is impossible, requests to nerf survivors because they can win all the chases. Sure thing - if you got to play against survivors with multiple hours/skill/reflexes to yours because you "lerned" how to camp and tunnel instead of how to win chases, then yes. Those specific survivors are OP. And yet they will still probably loose the game in the end.
About you camping 3gen - because you should have been able to apply pressure before you got into that situation. Because you should have been good enough to create pressure at 3-5 gens. Because all you want is to hold the game hostage. There used to be the same situation in game in past. It was called hatch standoff. If both killer and survivor got to hatch, none could move, because the other one would win the game. You are asking for same thing now - survivors can't go to your 3gen, because it's pointless and you don't want to move away from it, because you are convinced, that you are bad enough to not be able to down anyone in time. So to cut this off the correct solution would be to delete such standoff - make holding 3gen indefinitely impossible. It used to be this way in the past, but after meta shakeup + a few new killers, this holding 3gen is going so much into territory of it being impossible to break, that some killer players have the audacity to ask for it to be even easier. No. The game should be designed so, that it always progresses. That's the reason why EGC was created. Before it, survivors were able to hide indefinitely. This got changed (thanks god). Would you like to go back in time and have survivors be able to hide until server cancels the game again?
And if you don't accept game design's POW why you should leave 3gen when chase opportunity arises. Your personal reason should be very clear. Because camping and not moving the game an inch is boring (and I will say for both sides). At least go down with dignity. Don't be like those last 2 survivors at 3 uncompleted gens that will just hide until the other one is found in hopes of finding a hatch. That's super boring. Enjoy the chases instead. Even if it means you will loose. As a survivor I will rather hop on a gen even if 5 are left to go before I would start to hide. Even if I know I will die precisely because of this. I will at least die after a fun chase. Not standing on a spot like a total sore looser.
And what your suggestion actually "help with" is making sure EVERY killer is able to be in this standoff. That's the EXACT opposite of what the game designers should do with the game. So no. It's not survivors abusing gen tapping. It's you abusing gen kicking perks that are overtuned right now.
Also your suggestion would do exactly NOTHING to reduce camp and tunnel. The only thing it would do is make camping easier and more rewarding = more people doing it. Do you know the time when killers camped in the game the most? It was at patches 6.1 (where camping got buffed) before patch 6.2 (where camping got countered by reassurence). In 6.1 good 50% of killers suddenly turned into face campers, because they could and they knew they just WILL win the game. Right after the patch where survivors got nerfed hard in chases. Right at the patch where killer win rate skirocketed for a few days. At this exact time camping was at it's peak usage. And you say that making camping and tunneling safer because you can block gen even better will deminish it? Don't make me laugh now. You don't believe it yourself.
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Simple fix. First kick on a gen is 2.5%, second kick on the same gen is 5%, third kick on the same gen is 7.5% and so on.
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the "nerf" was a joke. They said gens would take longer to complete, yet in the first minute of game in 90% of my games at least 1 generator is already completed. Heck, I have like 40% of my matches have a generator completed before i can reach to check if there's a survivor at the second closest generator after the game starts...
Even in chases, the kick regression is not even worth the time, as a single simple click on the generator would had made me waste the few seconds kicking the generator + made me lose the chase.
The easiest way to fix that is to implement exactly 2 skill checks immediately after tapping on a generator after it has been kicked. I say 2 because 1 would be too easy.
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An abstract of your whole post: "Killer op, killer should let survivors win by design or for personal reasons"... k
But I want to mention a couple of things:
'Your argument is, all odds are against killer, because I said so' I already gave plenty of reasons of why this is a fact, but if you need more here is a comment I did in another post, go and read it as I don't even feel like take the effort to copypaste it here for you: https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/comment/3290569#Comment_3290569
'And what your suggestion actually "help with" is making sure EVERY killer is able to be in this standoff.' 'The only thing it would do is make camping easier and more rewarding = more people doing it.' 'Also your suggestion would do exactly NOTHING to reduce camp and tunnel.' Care to explain how reworking a game mechanic so it explicitly remove the necessity to camp would not only not reduce camping, but make more people do it? And the same logic for the tunneling, as if I don't have the need to take out one survivor ASAP I won't be obligated to target that one survivor I just hooked.
And for the patches part... I have read all the patch notes of that patches and I don't see any instance of camping being buffed... or any other claim you made, in fact. So I will guess that you are sitting down right now in the source of all that included that well rounded, scientifically obtained, totally documented and true percentage of "face camping killers" you used there. But I wasn't playing the game back then, so if I'm wrong you are free to indicate me in which part of the patch notes says any of that (apart of the Reassurance perk)
'And you say that making camping and tunneling safer because you can block gen even better will deminish it?' And yet again, you fail to clarify how and why adding a cooldown to broken generators would make camping and tunneling safer.
Keep trying.
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Because it has been tried? Remember patch 6.1? Again. There's NEVER EVER been so much camping and tunneling as when patch 6.1 arrived - even if virtually EVERY game ended up in 4K (at least for a few days/first week). Why did those killers camp? Did they have to even if they would win anyway? No they did not. Yet they DID. So explain to me WHAT would suddenly change if the game got easier for killers but camping and tunneling would still be best strategy to win. Why do you think someone would stop camping and tunneling? There's 0 reason why somebody would stop tunneling. Everyone would still camp & tunnel "just in case" or to "ensure the win". As was demonstrated by patch 6.1.
I don't see any instance of camping being buffed.
That's because you have 0 game sense. You would know if you played the game for both sides at least very little. What is the proposed "counter" to (face)camping killers? Right. "Just do gens". What did patch 6.1 do? +10s to finish generator and +0s on hook. Which perk prolongs doing gens even without killer doing anything? Deadlock. Did it get nerfed so successful camping was not possible? No it did not. So by this patch bubba that facecamps survivor suddenly killed 2 survivors by the time last gen poped. Still had enough time to find another survivor with NOED and camp that another survivor to death = 3K almost every game with minimal effort. And this even expects survivors know what's going on and go immediately on gens. Otherwise it's 4K every time.
If you read patch notes 6.2 also did not nerf this tactics, yet it mysteriously no longer worked the way it did before - because yes, reassurence got into the game. That's also the reason why camping dropped significantly (as opposed to patch 6.1).
And yet again, you fail to clarify how and why adding a cooldown to broken generators would make camping and tunneling safer.
Again you have 0 sense to understand. I will first start with camping - more time for killer for doing bare minimum = more time to spend waiting until that survivor dies. I will give you another hint - if you make each hook state take 30s instead of 1 minute, the game will break, because every killer would be able to stand in front of hook, wait 1 minute and turn the game to 3v1, or hook trade, or have 0 people on gens because for every unhook 3 (healthy) people would be required to come. And as for tunneling - if you are able to (face)camp, you don't need to look for unhooked person. He will be right there in front of your eyes. Also that person will no longer have OTR protection, because all you need to do is hit him right as he gets unhooked with 0 chance of survivor dodging it. DS got nerfed so tunneling is even easier (you can just eat DS without any worry - especially on more mobile killers) and there would be 0 counter against it.
You have to have VERY little understanding of game to not see this. But I am not even surprised considering what you propose was done to the game. Try to play survivor at least a little. Like 1/20th of your killer games. It will actually also help you a bit with your killer games. Also you will stop with these outright stupid and game breaking suggestions.
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