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A rework to chase mechanics
Many of these changes will require an open mind as to balance. Thank you for reading.
#Chase mechanic rework.
Personally, I think chases should have a defined mechanic rather than the current dynamic system of variables. Currently chases are defined by "spotting" a survivor in a way that the game can recognize as initiating a chase. During the chase a player can activate "bloodlust" to gain extra speed. The chase is ended when the killer has "lost sight of a survivor".
These specific values are too indeterminate to provide responsive and accurate gameplay. As such I believe a more succinct set of values should be required. To that end I suggest that a chase begins at first successful attack. Once the hit has connected the killer will have "discovered" the survivor and the chase will begin. During the chase the killer will no longer gain blood lust. Instead the killer will gain all the advantages of "chase perks" until the "chase timer" expires. Upon which the chase will end.
Perks that could affect this new chase sequence would be variations to the already chase based abilities such as "play with your food" and new abilities to provide benefits during the chase timer. Such as an extended chase timer, enhanced aura reading, decreased chase timer, various adjustments to movement speed or actions, and much more.
Killers would be rewarded a successful chase by putting a survivor into a dying state. Because at that point the killer would need to tend to the dying player. Chasing is about downing players in order to sacrifice them. You're not trying to waste time. The faster you kill all 4 survivors the better. The point system could still be based on duration of chase, but with a more consistent bell curve since all chases would be intentially initiated and have a finite length.
Survivors on the other hand would have only the goal of lasting the entire chase. As the point of a survivor engaging in a chase is to waste the killer's time. A Survivor would be awarded a successful chase if they manage to last until the chase timer runs out. With points being awarded based on the duration and average.
Hiding is a byproduct of managing to survive a chase, but shouldn't be a variable that determines the end of a chase. Because there's such a thing as hiding in plain sight and playing mind games. Neither of these can be quantified by the "end chase" requirements of the current system.
#Bloodlust mechanic rework
The next thing to address is the new application of bloodlust. My opinion for bloodlust is that it should be turned into a graduated meter that fills based on how many times the killer is stunned. This would represent the frustration of a killer becoming constantly stunned and getting more powerful.
The thematic properties of bloodlust are currently not realized as a killer tends to be forced into breaking pallets due to the map design and survivor advantage at certain wall segments. Rather than chasing providing bloodlust - which makes zero thematic sense; that would be tunnel vision 🤷🏻♂️ - i think the idea of being more angry coincides with the idea of bloodlust. And in turn the player who is experiencing bloodlust as well can safely enact poetic justice on their cocky survivor opponents by building up bloodlust over time and then losing it all upon killing a survivor.
Perks like "beast of prey" would become more situational, but actually useful as they'd have a real place in the meta. For example instead of providing the hidden red stain only during extended chases it would instead provide permanent red stain removal until the huntress has killed a player upon reaching a certain tier of bloodlust. Perhaps either 5 levels of bloodlust with 1 stun = 1 level or 3 levels with 2 stuns = 1 level.
Depending on necessity bloodlust could be tied to the ability to destroy the breakable walls, perform moris, and provide increased movement speed during the chase segments based on level of bloodlust. I find this potentially controversial, but somewhat appealing as it would be similar to a meter in a fighting game.
I feel this change to the chase dynamic would improve player to player interactions and the overall feel of the game. I also thing this would open up a couple of extra avenues for future and current mechanical improvements and add-ons.
Currently this is how bloodlust works:
Personally, I think my variation is better. But feel free to comment below with your own opinions and suggestions.
Comments
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The biggest problem with your bloodlust suggestion is it heavily rewards predropping pallets and hold W gameplay
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I’m honestly not sure how it would do that. In fact I’m almost positive it would do the opposite.
For one thing: running away as a strategy should always be valid, but never preferred.
currently the game assumes that killers can catch up by using bloodlust. But all a player has to do to avoid that is perform a chase interruption or convince a killer to break a pallet. I’ve provided the wiki’s explanation of bloodlust’s current model. Even just walking around a pallet loop will rob the killer of the potential for that assumed speed increase.
So if anything the always “w” strat is already in effect because in theory the killer shouldnt stop chasing you if it wants to build bloodlust.
Whereas with my model there’s nothing to lose by waiting. Nothing to lose by breaking pallets. And the speed will be irrelevant to how long a chase persists outside of perks and abilities. So as a survivor always using W will grant you a swift death after w set amount of time. Because regardless of which killer (excluding nurse) the movement speed will always be in the killers favor. As base movement is 4.0 for survivors and 4.4-4.6 for most killers.
That’s before we even acknowledge the fact that the new bloodlust model could be utilized to increase movement speed per stun. Or there could be perks that increase movement speed (such as pwyf)
And I’m also confused as to why dropping pallets would benefit players. Particularly survivors. And especially not outside of a chase? All that would do is allow the killer to break the pallets and you return back to being too slow to outrun the killer. Causing you to have to rely exclusively on exhaustion perks to prevent yourself from getting caught.
The main point of the pallet stun is to grant oneself extra time by disabling the killer’s vision and movement. If you throw it early you’re giving up that whole point for a simple vault - which can just be walked around and most killers will just break it for the free points in brutality.
Maybe you’re confused or you believe there to be more to it? Please elaborate.
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Currently you gain bloodlust over time in a chase and only lose it if you drop chase, land an attack or break a pallet.
This means the longer a chase goes the more likely you are to get a hit in eventually.
Pre-dropping a pallet refers to dropping a pallet in chase before the killer enters the zone of a stun to prevent a hit.
There are essentially 3 different strength levels of pallets.
God pallets: These pallets almost exclusively cannot be played around and have to be broken or the survivor can loop indefinitely or completely block an area. Killers cannot use mindgames or bloodlust to get a hit here. Classic example is Shack pallet, but also several on the game and a few other maps or the top of the stairs on RPD.
Safe pallets: These are generally on stronger tiles and either require a very good mindgame, a survivor mistake or the pallet to be broken to get a hit. Blooodlust can help but usually the loop is too long for it to be effective until the higher tiers and even then is difficult.
Unsafe pallets: These are on shorter loops and filler tiles, a killer can usually get around these with bloodlust or simple mindgames and generally give very little distance when leaving the loop. When the killer stands at the edge of the loop the killer can get a hit at the pallet in the time the vault animation takes or can pass around the loop if the survivor leaves without giving up much distance unless the survivor lands a stun.
A stun will always gain more time than pre-dropping but at god/safe pallets predropping will still usually gain a lot of distance when the killer breaks/goes around the pallet. At an unsafe pallet predropping is usually not very helpful as the killer can usually walk around the pallet in the same or less time as the break animation, the survivor gains little distance and if the killer has bloodlust can often get a hit in between loops. Also if a survivor gets greedy or mistimes the drop going for the stun can be the reason they get hit.
If the killer does not gain bloodlust during a chase then a survivor can theoretically run to a pallet, start looping, predrop the pallet and get to the next loop often without losing a health state and lead to extremely long/indefinite chases especially on standard mobility killers.
As to losing bloodlust, while getting a hit or breaking a pallet will cause you to to bloodlust, bloodlust itself makes it very difficult to lose it in the other ways. If you walk instead of run for 5 seconds this will generally result in getting hit at all but the safest pallets, It is also much harder to break line of sight for 8 seconds.
If you only gain bloodlust by getting stunned this would encourage more predropping as stuns would boost killers in addition to being riskier than predropping, and reduce/eliminate the killers ability to get hits in between loops of god/safe pallets, and trying to regain distance on a survivor using lithe, balanced landing, or a 99'd sprint burst would be terrible.
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Your introductory statement is flawed. "more likely" and "eventually". So when? When I hit bloodlust 2? Bloodlust 3? You can't say. Nobody can because the mechanic isn't static. it's dynamic. Which is exactly my point. The fact is you may never actually get a hit in. Because dead hard exists and there are some pallets and wall configurations where you have to break the pallet or look beyond the survivor because even with blood lust 3 you won't be able to catch a player. All 3 of those situations will reset blood lust and sometimes those situations are stacked side by side. Meaning as a killer the match was rigged from the start in the survivors favor. easiest example is meat factory. For this reason alone I run brutal strength on killers without a teleport or stealth gimmick. 20% isn't much, but it's something.
Thank you for clarifying your definition of "pre-dropped". I would consider the act of "pre-dropping" a waste, but 🤷🏻♂️ then again I have decent internet and a wired connection so I don't typically rubberband. The only benefit I could see to pre-dropping would be to distract via noise cue and then resetting it with Yui's perk "any means necessary". There may be others, but that's the only one that comes to mind. maybe lithe, but honestly just look for a window at that point. there are almost 8 pages though so i apologize in advance if i missed something.
The concept of tiered pallets being good or bad for gameplay is honestly an opinion so I won't spend too much time talking about it. bottom line is this - it's inevitable that some things in the map are going to be better or worse for looping. That being said I personally believe that "god pallets" are a broken mechanic. As well as a cringy name. essentially what this equates to is a pallet that isn't balanced - at all. Layering them in the game as safe, neutral, and unsafe is ironic and of course inevitable, but nothing should be "safe". That's part of the reason why the game can feel so survivor sided. I personally would prefer that all pallets be a neutral reset and serve the same purpose. if you stun you escape and if you block a path you buy time.
I disagree with your scenario for the bloodlust being gained by stuns causing early pallet drops. For one thing there are more than just pallet stuns: flashlights, flashbangs, firecrackers, blast mines, grasp escapes, headons, and decisive strikes to name a few. If anything you'd be giving up a significant weapon as a survivor to counter an inevitability. Because currently the idea of movement speed increasing as a player chases limits the base movement speed of the killers. This portion would simply need to be rebalanced.
If we take a purely mathematical approach to a chase, then it should be expected to end after a specific amount of time. You can treat a chase like a mathematical equation this way. Something like it takes x amount of seconds for speed A to overtake speed B from initial y distance. actions like stuns or exhaustion perks would increase the initial distance by a min-max range based on balance. With this method every action can be balanced and the concept of blood lust being applied based on stuns and permanently increasing base movement until downing or possibly even hooking would allow for a tier system that either linearly or exponentially decreases that x value as the killer is assaulted.
and the most important part. it would provide an outlet for a back and forth interaction between the survivor and killer sides without feeling abusive or useless in design.
I play a lot of killer. when it comes to a chase it's possible to draw it out as a flowchart. i recommend you giving it a shot. or anyone else reading for that matter.
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My introductory statement isnt actually flawed. Due to differences in player skill and human descisions there will always be the possibility of not getting a hit, nothing can be done to fix that.
Lets take your concept though, bloodlust is changed so the killer only gains it by being stunned. What happens if the killer doesn't get stunned?
There is no bloodlust, you now have loops that can be essentially infinites, every single map/pallet/loop would have to be rebalanced.
Here is your new gameplay loop, I will use a very basic loop from Haddonfield with 2 cars and a pallet between them.
1. Survivor goes to pallet and drops just before killer gets there so no stun.
2. A) Killer breaks pallet and survivor runs away, survivor gains 2 seconds of distance or 8m for the pallet break animation.
B) Killer chases around loop with no bloodlust, standing on opposite side of the pallet survivor has approx 13m of distance.
8m of distance is 13 seconds for a 4.6 killer and 20 seconds for a 4.4.
13m of distance is 21 seconds for a 4.6 killer and 32 seconds for a 4.4
Thats with no exhaustion perks, and i will ignore the 4.4 killer and focus on the 4.6.
In option B the 21 seconds can be reset with a well timed vault so you will probably have to break the pallet.
In option A the 13 seconds is going to be enough time to get to the next pallet or window to buy another bit of distance to get to a pallet.
Lets just use the 15 seconds though (13 seconds catch up + 2 seconds break time) assuming 13 pallets per map, this means a survivor could run the killer for 195 seconds which is enough time for the other 3 survivors to complete all 5 gens
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Yes! this is the conversation I was looking for. Thank you for providing this example. So assuming no blood lust can be gained we then instead create a scenario where blood lust is unnecessary for a successful hit - if the killer plays perfectly without redirecting his or her focus.
I just noticed though that it doesn't seem like you've provided an example for how long it takes for a killer to catch up to a survivor. I'll do that for time sake. In increments of 4 the amount of distance traveled by the killer increases by .6 meters per second over the survivor. (or .4 for some). from 0-4 meters you can hit the survivor in less than 1 second. from 5-8 units its (x+y)/4.6 is greater than or equal to survivor time given same distance. x is starting distance and y is added distance. so for a killer 4.6/4.6=1 which means anything below 4.6 is 1 second of chase. at 9.2/4.6=2. (which makes me question the 8 unit math you've done. clearly 4.6x2 is not 13. 4.6x3 is 13.8. so perhaps you're using a different system than i am. regardless the math is simple. you get a .6 bonus to distance travelled per second. which means every 7 seconds you travel an additional second of distance with a remainder of .2. so if your opponent is x meters away you can expect to gain on them at a rate of ~1/7th a second. or in other words it takes ~7 seconds to catch a survivor at beyond 4 meters per additional 4 meters and after 28 meters you gain a second back. maybe that's where you get 13? regardless.
if we use the numbers you provided 8/13 and 8/20 and 4/1 we end up with the scenarios you provided regardless of bloodlust. perimeter being 30 units with a bisector for essentially a 15 perimeter equivalence. which boils down to basically meaning 30/4.6 ; 15/4.0. 6.52~ for a 4.6 killer to circle without breaking pallet. And 3.75 for a survivor to make it to the pallet.
in zero scenarios is it worth not breaking the pallet. by making it 15/4.6 the time becomes 3.2. according to your numbers this gives the survivor ~2 seconds to look for a new option such as another nearby loop or hiding place. this is still less than 6.52 at 5.2
So in this situation your only viable option is break the pallet.
I'm going to use your 195 seconds example since it's what you provided, however, you failed to provide a preferred time or a range of times that would be considered appropriate for a 4K versus a 4E. 4K=4 kills and 4E=4 escapes.
if we assume that 90 seconds is what it takes to repair 1 generator and that generators are repaired simultaneously and the final is repaired by 4 players at 41 seconds then a game can be through the generator phase in 131 seconds. So if a perfect game is 131 seconds (not including add-ons, perks, items, etc.) then a terrible game would be 90x5 or 450 seconds. or 7.5 minutes. So a killer should succeed somewhere between the middle ground or on the upper end of the bell curve. in other words 7.5/3 or 2.5. every 2.5 minutes the game slips closer to killer advantage. 2.5 is greater than a perfect game. 135<150. then the killer zone is 5-7.5 minutes. at this point the game is in favor of the killer. and from 2.5-5.0 it's neutral. obviously there is the gen rush strat that can bring generators to under 70 seconds, but that's a broken system that is intentionally broken to reward perfect scenarios. just the same as there are broken killer perfect scenarios. tombstone+fragrant tuft comes to mind on a speedster meyers build.
But then what is the goal for a non perfect scenario perfect killer? if we chase a single player then that adds 90 seconds to the total. since 3 gens will be completed in the first 90 seconds. that means 2 gens will still need completion. with 1 survivor hooked. according to the wiki it takes 2 minutes to die from a hook. which means that worst case scenario is 2 survivors finish 1 gen in 52 seconds and head towards the door and the remaining solo gen will be finished in 90 seconds. what's more likely to happen is that 1 person heads to the door and 2 people work on the gen. this would reduce the overall time to about 23 additional seconds. or 75 seconds. if all 3 work it then its 19 or 71 total seconds. negligible difference. if we assume 20 seconds for the gate to open that's about 95 seconds. that's not even long enough to guarantee a sacrifice if you camped - which due to endurance being default for hook saves, 3 full hp players can easily overwhelm a killer.
so face camping is out. it's not viable.
but what if a killer chases after hooking? same scenario if the chase goes longer than 90 seconds. that's still 3 players doing gens. so the goal for a killer has to be able to chase at less than 90 seconds. what about 45 seconds? thats twice as many. if a killer chases at 0 percent for 45 seconds 3 gens will be at 45 percent. it's more efficient to work on separate generators. so until generators < survivors that's the assumption we'll use. at 45 percent a second survivor leaves to get chased. that's 2 hooks. and 2 generators completed. 45 seconds is less than 60 so the second survivor can still be hooked again. it we assume there's a minor reset (both survivors are saved but not healed) that means 3 people can go back to gens and 1 can be chased for the 45 second duration. at 90 seconds 2.5 gens are repaired. at 135 seconds 3 gens are fully repaired and 2 are half repaired. if we assumed the person on the hook at 135 then we have a similar scenario to before. however after 45 seconds both gens will be repaired only allowing for a total of 4 hooks and 2 hook transitions. add 20 seconds for gate. This value would be about neautral the match - 2 kills. Which means that 45 seconds is the middle ground for chase time. 60 and 30 being the advantage zones. for survivor amd killer respectively. taking into account for perks, items, add ons and human error it should be easy to provide a 15 second variable without adding it to the base calculations.
this means that killers should always be able to catch a survivor at 45 seconds of chase - regardless of bloodlust. for 2 seconds advantage per chase survivors would need to stun 15x4/2=30 times. this would by far outweigh your 13 pallets scenario.
if loops are designed to be useless after 45 seconds of constant chase then the issue of looping disappears.
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The math is much simpler than you are making it, 8m head start, killer moves .6m/s faster than survivor.
8m÷0.6m/s = 13 seconds to catch up regardless of further distance traveled
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So x/y=n? x being starting distance, y being speed difference, and n being time it takes to catch up? okay so we are talking about the same formula. So then we need to make n=45 at an expected x radius. that means 45x.6=27. so a chase should be considered at 27 meters. At 27 units if nothing caused an issue for either player then the chase would end in 45 seconds with a down. This would have to also include the Sprint burst from an injury and the injury to dying state itself. Which actually means a single instance of basic attacking can take no longer than 22.5 seconds. So... if we factor that in also... 22.5x.6=13.5. Or in other words a killer has to maintain a constant 13.5 meter relationship between itself and at least 1 other survivor given any radius. If a killer cannot do this then that killer will lose the match.
So! Let's go back to the example you gave for haddonfield. Remember the 15m perimeter and 30m perimeter? Is it any wonder Killers feel weak sometimes? Of course with blood lust currently a player could eventually go faster.
It takes 15 seconds to even get bloodlust. and it's only a .2 increase. So 15x.6=9. Which means blood lust is only useful at distances greater than 9 meters. Likewise for 10 seconds at a distance of 8 additional meters. 10 more seconds for 10 meters, and then if you hang in there for 35 seconds (well beyond the requirement for a first hit, but under the limit for a 2nd hit) you'll be rewarded with 5.2 movement speed. Which again is 27 meters To get blood lust 3. Even blood lust 2's currently useless as it requires that you chase for 25 seconds and have minimum distance of 17m - Which is more than the required distance of the example you provided given that the pallet is assumed to be broken upon being dropped and over the desired time of 22.5 seconds.
So the issue of blood lust being bad is already present if players wanted to early drop pallets. the added 2 seconds is just a plus if you stun.
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Also - I guess I should also address that the only way to get extra distance is: Speed increases, stuns, or misdirection. I won't include hiding or waiting as those do not increase distance, but rather rely on the killer to misuse their movement speed by veering away from the intended radius.
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Bloodlust is an unfortunately nicely named mechanic whose actual purpose is to make sure a Killer player has a crutch to always get a hit in.
You need to figure out a way to insert that same crutch into whatever rage mechanic you think up, be it inside the same mechanic, or in a new one.
While the Chase criteria you provide is highly precise (when the Killer hits a Survivor, they are for sure in a chase), it is horribly inaccurate, as it completely ignores any attempt to get that initial hit in, in the first place.
Though I can see a Chase change its state after the first hit, such as enabling a passive rage mechanic gain after this point, designed specifically for M1 Killer gameplay or a Perk mechanic that functions off of spreading out hits.
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I would like to do away with the crutch if at all possible. I think the initial movement speed advantage 4.0 vs the y variable should be enough unless stunned or the survivor uses a crutch. i dont think killers should have crutch mechanics for chase mechanics as it makes it so they're weaker than survivors initially. i personally think balance wise it would make more sense to force the survivor to use a crutch mechanic - such as an exhaustion perk in order to avoid a chase. The main focus should be on gens and hiding for survivors. Chases should benefit the killer to some degree.
As far as how that would be achieved - it would require some more standardized dimensions to the pallet and vault system, but i do believe that it's possible to still allow for some that are varied slightly while still maintaining fair gameplay. it might make the game slightly more predictable or more boring than having the bizarre useless loops and "god pallets".
then grant blood thirsty buffs as they're earned from stuns or whatever.
As far as ignoring everything up until the first melee attack - yes, i realized the issue there. I just forgot to come up with an alternative because i'd gone so far with the rest of it.
My thoughts are that there are really 2 options. A targetted system - which might ruin immersion - or a trigger system - which is similar to the melee attack initiating a chase.
in some ways I don't actually mind having everything that leads up to the first attack being ignored. First stun or first attack either or.
But for the sake of simplicity maybe the best version would just be a system similar to ghostface's reveal mechanic. 🤷🏻♂️
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Utilizing Ghost Face's Reveal Mechanic to essentially fill a "Chase Meter" on a Survivor that can hold up to 8s and plays into how you gain Bloodlust could help with advocating for "Eyes on". Filling the Meter to Max on hit (in the case of things like Corn or finding a Survivor that is hiding in a Bush that obscures LoS) might be a way to approach it, and of course having a maximum distance it can trigger.
This Meter might or might not be shown to the Killer, and may or may not be included in how Bloodlust builds.
But it does sound a lot like the current criteria, just with a more natural feeling falloff and perhaps a more accurate start (in the case of Corn)
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yeah. that's basically the goal anyway. to avoid the bs "hiding in plain sight" issues that the current chase mechanic can't distinguish.
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"hiding in plain sight" - What issue do you refer to?
If you mean that a Survivor can be around corners in a loop for a decent amount of time and drop chase in that regard, why not just increase the duration on the out of line of sight end and remove the camera angle cutout (with the excuse that the Killer can still hear footsteps)
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The issues of bloodlust not being granted because of line of sight issues constantly cancelling chases, the issue of a survivor being informed they're in a chase, the issue of killers being informed they're in a chase, and various other minor things
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This is one of your points I just dont get, the chase is easy to identify by the chase music, and I really dont have the issues you describe of bloodlust not kicking in or losing it unintentionally.
The real problem is to remove bloodlust you would have to rebalance so many aspects of the game you would be better off building a new game from the ground up.
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i mean... it's fair to say that. 🤷🏻♂️ i can only vouch for my own experience. and it's not like this post is me raging at something. just a thought.
basically, when chasing around a wall that's a bit longer, but you can clearly see the survivor - killer shack for example - if you spend too much time playing the opposite from window side to pressure a pallet throw or vault it can cause you to lose bloodlust even though you can clearly see the survivor. same with places like the junked cars on auto haven wreckers and certain tiles on meat factory - like the double shelves. i'm sure there are orhers, but those are the ones that come to mind. Even with blood lust 3 some of these locations would be safe so it's unfortunate that you can't build it.
the other things would be similar to what assortedsorting understood. the issue of seeing something only because the game informed you you're in a chase. places with tall grass, corn, and heavy vegetation that has to be traversed. there are times when i've been notified i'm in a chase because the criteria was met, but without me realizing anyone was there.
likewise there are perks and addons that remove the red stain. yet they're somewhat pointless if the survivor is told they're in a chase the moment they decide to run somewhere. i like to use lightweight and run everywhere - it's obviously going to get me found out, but i would rather move faster with certain builds. if i as a survivor have no clue what's behind me and i just happen to be running through a distracted field of view of the killer it can pick up my movement and inform both the killer and survivor that we're nearby - which isn't something that should happen.
the other reasons like i said are minor, but relate to mind games. certain stalker builds and such really take a hit when dealing with the chase mechanics. or at least it seems that way to me. it's too specific and situational to name everything but one thing is spirit pallet drop baiting. chase music tells you all you need to know.
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