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Enough is enough...
Comments
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"ending it early" is intentionally targetting one player even when better opportunities to chase other players exist
as for the rest of your other questions, the answer is "just because there isn't a rule against playing in a particular way does not mean that you have to, or even should, do it." My argument is that nothing is forcing you to play in a particular way. As a survivor, I like being tunneled because often the kind of killer player that tunnels (or at least the type that tunnels me) isn't very good in chase so I get to feel good at the game; but I know many other people (generally people who don't play the game much and don't want to sweat) who don't like games like that.
I could just as easily ask questions like "Where does it say killers are owed [x] amount of fun before the survivors escape," or "where is the rule saying survivors need to wait until [x] hook stages," but I wouldnt, because if I did that, I would most likely be engaging in a bad faith response to your post.
To make sure we're understanding each other, my argument is this: Tunneling is not an absolute necessity and it is incorrect to treat it as such. It can be conditionally useful if you want to play with a certain style or achieve a certain goal, but just as there's no rule saying the killer needs to let survivors get a certain a certain amount of progress done, there's no rule saying that they have to not do that. A lot of the arguments in favor of tunneling seem to be "it's technically allowed" and in my opinion that's a weak argument in favor of anything.
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"ending it early" is intentionally targetting one player even when better opportunities to chase other players existAnd...who decides what the best opportunity to chase players? I'd hold that the Killer, who is playing...THE KILLER...decides what his/her best move is at any given moment. Yet Survivors continually insult me for not doing what THEY want me to do.
I could just as easily ask questions like "Where does it say killers are owed [x] amount of fun before the survivors escape,"I also asked that in my post. It was 'Where's the timer telling Survivors to slow down on gens, because they are doing them too fast?' My point was that neither side owes it to the other to play badly for some vague idea of 'time owed' or 'fun owed'.
Tunneling is not an absolute necessity and it is incorrect to treat it as suchI agree. Sure.
A lot of the arguments in favor of tunneling seem to be "it's technically allowed" and in my opinion that's a weak argument in favor of anything.Yes and no. You are correct, but it's more nuanced than that. Allot of 'anti tunneling' seem to be based off this idea that Tunneling should not be allowed. SOothe ideas are 'Steal BP' and 'Punish Killers' and 'Ban anyone I hate'. Ideas that start with the erroneous idea that Tunneling (and camping, and slugging) are clearly not allowed, just because Survivors say so.
My point was that no one is owed [x] amount of game time, or fun, or anything else. So there is no 'ending the game early', because there is no early.
If the Survivors somehow manage to do all 5 gens & open the exit gates in 2 minutes (again; without cheating or using exploits); Then they did not 'end the match too early'. Yes; such times should be looked at, if it ever happens. But no one can say 'they owed the Killer more time to kill'.
Just like, if the Killer feels 2-3 gens popping means he needs to tunnel someone out; He does not owe it to them to spread out hooks just because they don't want to be 'killed too early'.
I hate that 'too early' mindset, because it's exactly the mindset that sees people screaming for 'punishments' instead of FIXES. People with wounded egos felt they were owed some amount of arbitrary game time or fun, and thus feel they should be compensated, or their opponent should be punished, for breaking this 'fun rule'.
It's also why Survivors treat Killers like [bleep] in the end game chat; It's an excuse of 'They were mean/toxic first by (tunneling/camping/slugging), so I'm justified in being mean back'.
Which is why I hate the mindset. No offense. There is no 'too early', or the devs would have programmed a timer.
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I was going to make some remarks on some of the flavor of your arguments, but honestly I think it'd be more productive to cut to the chase.
I think a lot of this boils down to people assuming hostility on the other side. I might have seen like one person say "there should be a rule against tunneling," like, ever. and i'm pretty sure they were joking. of the hundred or so people I've seen complain about tunneling, it's usually either "I find tunneling a scummy tactic" or "BHVR should do more to disincentive it." instead of asking for punishment, usually I see the other way around - people saying killers should be rewarded for not tunneling (bonuses for hooking different survivors consecutively) and it's generally from a perspective of wanting more interesting gameplay for everyone (though, obviously, focusing primarily on survivors).
I think a lot of vocal anti-tunneling advocates assume killer players target specific players to be malicious and so the way they discuss it is in response to that percieved maliciousness. likewise, killer players who do what might be considered tunneling assume that survivors want the killer to just act as a doormat, when really everyone just wants what they feel is a chance.
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Okay, its a food for thought for Behaviour and everyone here who thinks:
- "Someone else fun is not my buisness".
- Removing one survivor from the game asap is valid win condition.
Who will be playing, with sweaty killers, if all survivors will just stop playing due to inability to play the game?
Its legitimate question, just try to answer it.
No, im not saying that genrush is good. No, im not saying killers should not try to win.
What I AM saying is that - if someone is not able to actually play the game, those people just leave this game. It can happen due to various reasons - game has too high hardware requiremet; game is too laggy; game is too hard; game is too easy (is finished in few hours, so why play it more?); or in this case due to hanging from the hook for 2min, and going back to lobby. <- This is game bad design. Genrush and surv bully squads should be removes but WITH camping and tunneling as a whole. Survivors should not die untill endgame, and game should have time limit, not living survivor limit.
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Sorry, I lumped tunneling/slugging/camping together in my discussion.
But there have been a few threads demanding punishments:
- This one we are in, demanding BP penalties.
- Killers should have a higher penalty — BHVR
- Tunneling and Camping — BHVR
And that's just from the last 3 or 4 days. Survivors treat Tunneling as if it's a mortal insult, and act like the Killer did it to be toxic every time. These Survivors refuse to admit there are times to tunnel, and refuse to see the Killer side.
And yes; I do play Killer more, but I have been tunneled & camped as a Survivor. I usually just read a book while waiting to die. Same as when I'm slugged.
(This is for everyone who gets angry, not at you, ratcoffee): The best way to deal with camping/tunneling/slugging is to stop blowing up, for two reasons:
- If the Killer really did it to ruin your game; You are giving them what they want.
- If the Killer did it because they felt it was the best move to make at the time; Then you're being a dink to someone for no reason.
Honestly, I'm just done with watching Survivors put me on blast because they decided what I should have done and then got angry because I did not play how they, my opponents, wanted me to play. \
They decided I was trying to make them angry because they got angry, which is psychotic. If any y'all see me in game, and assume I was trying to make you angry; I was not. I don't care enough about someone who's screenname I will see once & forget in 5 minutes, to expend the energy to make them angry.
And I bet it's the same for 99% of the Killers people scream 'Did it to make me mad!'. The other 1% are blatantly obvious; Standing over/in front of you and nodding or revving chainsaw, etc.
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Just HALF your games? Damn that's rookie numbers, ever since the update dropepd I'd get tunnelled every single game lmao
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And yes; I do play Killer more, but I have been tunneled & camped as a Survivor. I usually just read a book while waiting to die. Same as when I'm slugged.
So, what You are saing is to "do other things"? So you admit that slugging, camping and tunneling is unfun? So what about person who feels they are slugged/camped/tunneled too often? With you strategy, they should just play another game, or read more books like You. What if a little too much people will go with that advice? Who will we be playing with?
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I never said it was 'unfun', so don't put words in my mouth to justify your rant.
But since being slugged or camped does not require 100% of my attention (I refuse to give killer shout outs if I'm playing with friends), I split my attention until I'm either dead, or saved.
NOWHERE did I say it's unfun. NOWHERE did I say 'play another game'. You just want to rant about how you don't like it and invent some slippery slope 'what if everyone stops playing!?' tripe to continue the whole 'tunneling/camping/slugging MUST BE CHANGED' narrative some Survivors have to blame-away their losses.
Tunneling, camping, and slugging have a time and place. Either accept it or keep getting angry when you lose. 🤷♂️
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No, I'm using the definition of "competitive" and "zero-sum game", if you think that only games played professionally are the only competitive games or the only ones played at high level skill is your problem.
And your conclusion is that playing to win in the most efficient and competitive way is disrespect the rival by making him lose early... got it:
No more triples in the NBA to gain point advantages, no more punches to the head in boxing to avoid early KOs, the same in MMA with kicks or grappling, no more buying the red and oranges streets in Monopoly as they are statically the most rewarding. Ban combos longer than 2 hits from fighting games. Forbid to be able to kill someone from behind in FPS. Oh, and ban any survivor that do a gen in less than 40 seconds, is disrespecting the killer by not letting him commit to chases and ending the game by the time he got his second hook.
Obviously, your logic is flawless.
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what do you mean by "No, I'm using the definition of 'competetive'"
there are a couple possible ideas you could be getting at here, and I don't want to assume you're saying one thing when you mean another
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Haven't you read this forum or what? There's a lot of posts from people complaining about SFW and that they should be nerfed or removed.
And yeah, people use genrush builds because of tunneling and camping, is vicious circle.
So one thing can't be removed without touching the other thing.
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-"35 second generators are not "routine" and require ridiculous amounts of luck, setup and coordination."
Two people on a generator with prove and a yellow-green toolbox is a 35 second generator. If a survivor team makes 10 great skill checks per player that's 40 great checks = 48 seconds gained for the survivor team with no perk or strategy requirement.
One person on a generator requires you to devote at least 3/4 of your perks to a solo gen rush build (note: streetwise and prove thyself could be split up among a few survivors if you desire the luck aspect. ) The rest is : pure raw skill.
Either way this is a problem for non mobility killers that lose the game if they have not tunneled one to two players out before they lose their three gen setup.
-"it was that 55% of games had a SWF, not that 55% of people played in a SWF all the time, those are two very different concepts"
While you are correct the outcome is the same either way. The majority of people were playing in a SWF before the game became ultra sweaty and gen rushed/ tunnel focused . If we look at peak hour times the rate of SWF is probably 60-70%. If we looked at higher skill players they probably only play survivor in a SWF about 10-15% more than that.
Generally speaking I can play 10 games and every game is either : 2x 2 man swf, 3x swf or 4 man SWF. If I play at 4am on a week night then I am likely to get a bunch of solo players. I play about one game a week where I gett 4 solo players on steam who do not have each other on their friends list. I obviously cannot check consoles but I expect that happens in the same frequency.
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Tunneling, camping, and slugging have a time and place. Either accept it or keep getting angry when you lose. 🤷♂️
Im not getting angry when i lose. I enjoy good game despite of how it ended, its just a game afterall. im getting angry when i spent some of my free time to play a game and game does not allow me to actually play the game. And i never said "im getting angry when i lose", dont put words to my mouth just to justify your rant.
NOWHERE did I say it's unfun. NOWHERE did I say 'play another game'.
Okay then. I will repeat my point, without using words you havnt said, hopefully this will make you understand what im talking about.
When you are slugged, or camped you read a book. Assuming i will do exact same thing each time im NOT playing the game, so: in lobby, while its loading, when hooked, when slugged. And now assuming in most of my games im camped or tunneled just after game started, yeah maybe its my fault, im too weak to play the game, but each time i do this - i read a book. At some point i can conclude that im actually read book more than playing the game, so why bother with launching it? Just to read a book again?
You just want to rant about how you don't like it and invent some slippery slope 'what if everyone stops playing!?'
maybe its my invention. Maybe its slippery slope. But try to answer that question. Lets assume its less than 0.01% chances. But still, lets assume this exact possibility happens. What then? And is risk of making such scenario worth it? Being able to slug/camp/tunnel is worth risk of turning people out of the game? Wouldnt it be better so bhvr remove those action mechanically from the game and balance it without such possibilities?
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