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Otzdarva: On Tunneling Being 'Worse'.
Comments
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Uh...that wasn't the point?
That's not what anyone asked for. What?
Killers wanted:
- Lower tier killers to be more viable.
- Useless killer addons reworked.
- Maps rebalanced so there isn't such a start delta between good and bad killers.
- Gens slowed down a bit.
- More perks made viable.
- Dead Hard nerfed.
They got...a few of those things, but they also got faster gens in SWFs and after Eruption gets gutted, the meta will be less flexible than it was before 6.1.0.
How in the HELL is any of that what killers asked for?
Are you...just deliberately lying here, or am I getting baited?
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"Many, many times they aren't able to get that hit through body blocking and if they don't it is much, much better. Are we talking complete potato survivors here or? Even average survivors can do this, doesn't even take a full team."
How inefficient are your teams? Why would they send more than one person for an unhook unless your camping to secure a hook stage/kill? That's very inefficient and works in your favor.
"At higher mmr there is almost always a Reasurrance as swf of 3 or 4 mans are significantly more prevalent there and even in full solos it is quite common. You're downplaying how often this is ran by a lot."
I haven't seen Reassurance be used impactfully in over 3 weeks. If you trust NightLight (I do not) then it has a measly 4% pick rate. It's really not a very common perk at all and it's even rarer for it to get value.
"New DH requires more skill and is worse but it is still god tier and the best survivor perk in the game. Don't act like it was gutted, you essentially still have the same perk. While yes killer got those things, you also got base kit BT into the game, a better BT perk, you still have OTR and old DS even if it's worse, and as mentioned Reassurance added in. It is 1000% not easier to tunnel, that's just false."
The power of DH has been significantly reduced. It's completely counter-able right now and is genuinely a skillful interaction between the Killer player and Survivor player. It is not even COMPARABLE to old DH which was press a button to extend the loop guaranteed, no skill required and no opportunity for an outplay. Base-kit BT, Off the Record and regular BT (which I do not see too often) are all counter-able by simply....hitting the Survivor as soon as they're off hook, even if you don't chase them, it eliminates any value they may get from it for the next 80 seconds. It's FAR easier for me to tunnel.
"If you play at very high mmr you know this is not true. If you want an example that streams very often to prove this watch Zebb89 stream and tell me how many of those lobbies look lower mmr."
I don't know who that is. I do know that it's an undeniable fact that the MMR system isn't that accurate nor is it designed to be. If it were, you'd have insanely long queues as Killer. I immediately distrust anyone who says they're at high MMR, though perhaps that's colored by the oversaturation of people who think they're good.
"That's a weird roundabout way of saying you agree with me."
I was more pointing out that you were stating something obvious and I thought it was silly. If your opponents are trying their best to win and you aren't (assuming they're of roughly equal skill), the person who isn't trying SHOULD lose. If you do find a very good team, which is rare, and they are "tryharding" yeah DUH you are gonna have to match them if you want to win.
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I haven't seen Reassurance be used impactfully in over 3 weeks. If you trust NightLight (I do not) then it has a measly 4% pick rate. It's really not a very common perk at all and it's even rarer for it to get value
Generally it's only really used in comp, because camping (as Otz explains pretty decently) is a much riskier proposition and so it...just doesn't happen much anymore unless the killer is getting chumped.
The power of DH has been significantly reduced. It's completely counter-able right now and is genuinely a skillful interaction between the Killer player and Survivor player. It is not even COMPARABLE to old DH which was press a button to extend the loop guaranteed, no skill required and no opportunity for an outplay. Base-kit BT, Off the Record and regular BT (which I do not see too often) are all counter-able by simply....hitting the Survivor as soon as they're off hook, even if you don't chase them, it eliminates any value they may get from it for the next 80 seconds. It's FAR easier for me to tunnel.
It was -38 Celsius last night.
Tonight it's -24.
Yes, it's warmer than last night, but it's still bloody freezing.
DH is a bit of a problem, because it carries with it a ton of passive deterrence, almost like a survivor version of zoning. Getting hit by DH can be even worse than the old one, especially since our old friend 'fake hit' is back where it'll look and sound like a hit, which can buy that survivor more time.
The thing about baseline BT is that, aside from the killers that can completely negate endurance (this should be fixed), it does buy you time. You may die, but if you can run the killer for a while the other survivors may escape.
Yes, that sounds weak from a solo perspective, but survivor is the 'team' role.
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I just want to say that I agree with your opinion a lot more then blueberry opinion on this topic.
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Oh my..i got into otzdarva video... I played that game like butt cheeks, but he played it so nicely and fair.. If he tunneled even little he would have beaten us 100%. Also we were not a 4 man SWF. I was playing only with my boyfriend Joltie in that match.
Playing nicely makes you lose games that is given.
Post edited by Hannacia on10 -
Thank you.
I was really hoping that I was sounding reasonable and fair.
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I have an absurd killer rate on blight and I have to go out of my way to play at a time where I think mmr will match me better. MMR essentially doesn't function before 12AM on na for me. Maybe they are cracked vs m1 killer, but I would consider them below average vs blight before 12AM. Most players in this game are bad and even if they are running really good builds it will never make up for their decision making.
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I agree most players are bad and I agree before prime time the quality of survivors in most matches is much lower, not disagreeing with any of that. Blights also one of the high tier killers that I wouldn't apply most of the things I've said to, he's one of the exceptions.
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I played in a sort of comp match the other week, so yeah, I get it. It's just not something you see out in the wild as it were.
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As killer main, this is not what we wanted (or at least it's not what I WANTED)... my dream was a game where you play the game without the needing of "play optimally" (aka being rewarded properly for doing various chases/doing other things that won't involve pressing m1 on a generator) and effectively deny the most efficient and boring/annoying ways to play (genrush, slugging, bodyblock with endurance on purpose, tunneling, etc etc) and punish toxicity (both in endgame chat and ingame actions such as hitting repeatedly someone on the hook and tbag/flashlight click spam) for both sides through some added mechanics. But obviously BHVR took a wrong road on that matter and now we are stuck in this situation. You know, i found funny the fact that survivors told to killers multiple times to adapt every time that something was nerfed/changed instead of thinking why they were complaining about the nerf/change (look at pop goes to weasel, ruin and bbq for example: people kept defending those perks because they were HEALTHY for the game, incentivizing the killer to go away from the hook and being rewarded for it). Some people are biased i'll give you that, but not all the killer mains want to see survivors nerfed to the ground (same thing for certain survivor mains that i found in my matches)
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Demo was a solid B+ before the dead hard change.
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I just wanted to say thanks to Otz for making such a clear public statement about tunneling.
The very first game I played tonight someone went off on me for being a talentless, pathetic, tunneling terrible person.
All I wanted to do was test some spirit add-ons to see if I could play her without head phones.
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There is no incentive for “playing nice” and merely sets the Killer back in terms of achieving their objective.
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Here's the problem with that: that bar, the part where it's 'not required'? It's the killer mains that determine where that bar lies. And that bar has been dropping -fast-. Not to mention that what killers consider to be 'fair' is also pretty damn far off from reason in a lot of cases. It's way, WAY too common for a killer player to call BS on some game mechanic, and then the match they use to highlight it is a 4K.
Also, @Crowman coming through for me and immediately proving my point.
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I think the game is in a really bad state right now. I have lost all interest in playing killer personally.
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The thing about Reassurance is that it is really bad against the one thing it should be good at - Anti-Camping. Since they changed the PTB-version, the Perk might only be valuable for 4 man SWFs. And there are better Perks to use out there.
The only time I see Reassurance being used is when I am just about to be unhooked so with 0 value.
When it comes to tunneling overall, it is without a doubt easier. Every Anti-Tunnel measurement resolves around Endurance, one hit and everything is gone. DS is worthless, it grants 7 meters of distance. It was already a Joke against strong Killers, now it is a Joke against basically every Killer (except maybe for someone like Trapper or Myers).
And when it comes to comp - Comp cannot be compared to Public Matches. It is a different game.
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TBF, in regards to Reassurance: That is what the community wanted it to be good at. But like 3 killer players complained that they weren't guaranteed a free kill if they just facecamped someone all the way into end-game, so the perk got a nerf specifically to make it really bad for solo players, and make it really bad against camping.
So clearly, while everyone wanted Reassurance to be an anti-camp perk, BHVR didn't.
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This is what he actually said if anyone is interested. So no tunneling is not necessary according to Otz himself. People love to misrepresent what he says. What he's actually saying is that tunneling is better than ever so people are naturally going to gravitate towards it. He never says the game is too hard as killer or anything of the sort. He didn't even mention gen rushing or regression being weak in his video that I can remember. People tunnel because it's easy mode. Especially against disorganized solos. I wish people would just be honest enough to admit that's why they do it. This whole idea that you can't win without tunneling is silly. It's also likely why some people are so desperate to see SWF nerfed. Since tactics like this have a much lower success rate against good teams. Good team = more second chance perks, better gen efficiency, better looping = less likely tunneling will succeed.
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I have gotten so much value out of reassurance against camping killers. Bubbas end up with their 1 kill and less than 10k bloodpoints usually too. Had a match ( SoloQ) where 3 of us had reassurance. Bubba literally stood at the hook all 5 gens and rest of us 3 got out. Was it fun for the person in the hook, probably not but that person understood that buying us that time secured a 3 man out and bubba got nothing.
Its by no means a useless perk and can work in soloQ as well.
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Did you watch the video?
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I’d be cool with that. I run it quite often since it feels rewarding when it activates at a critical point in the game
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You dont want killers to tunnel and spread the hooks?
Fine. How about doing 33% of a gen and moving on to the next one etc. - after 5 have 33%, you are allowed to do the next 33%.
Thats the counterpart. Survivors tunnel gens at maximum possibility with Toolboxes, Prove, Hyperfocus etc., but the killer has to worry about your "fun".
Okay then...
I do NOT like to go after the weakling over and over to create the 3v1, but that is the best and by far most viable strat.
It will become more and more meta, because gens fly and our gen-regression-perks are weaker than survivors BASE (!) Gen-Speed (400% is survivors Base-Speed).
I dont have a perk which decreases with 400%. And then, I havent even spoken about the many ways you can speed these 400% up. Btw. why should it be a perk. This should be Killers Base-Kick. Then, remove all speedup and regression tools on both sides and see where it goes.
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I'll tell you where it goes: Straight to 100% kill rate, because survivors literally cannot finish gens if the killer can break it down as fast as they can optimally repair it.
There's a reason gen regression never hit the same speed as survivor repairs: Because it's broken as heck. I mean, you're even taking 400% repair speed when the only way survivors ever hit that is if the killer is literally AFK. Vast majority of time, if the killer keeps the pressure up, that repair speed is going to be around 100%: One survivor on hook, one in chase, one on rescue duty, only one on gen.
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Of course 90 sec is pbly too much then (or 5 gens in total).
Didnt survivor always say gens are boring? Focus the game around chases!
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Survivors can recover very quickly from whichever bad situation they find themselves in, as long as it's nothing permanent. That means there is no pressure in having all 4 survivors injured when they can all heal up in 20 seconds, 1 person on hook is little to no pressure because unhooking and healing go faster than chasing and hooking. If a killer can keep up the cycle of hooking and chasing with only 2 survivors on gens, then that's an easy game for them. I have more than 1400 hours on killer and I almost NEVER can keep this cycle up. Unhooking + healing often takes around 15-20 seconds (keep in mind that this can go MUCH quicker). With many killers I'll be happy to be in another chase after those 20 seconds!
It's not 1 survivor on gens, 1 in chase, 1 on hook and 1 on the way to unhook all game. This is a situation that will occur but most of the time it's 3 survivors on gens and 1 in chase. Maybe Nurse and Blight can keep this up. But tell me how in the world would you apply this kind of pressure with Michael Myers, Sadako, Doctor, Clown, Trapper.... all the way up to even Hillbilly and Demo, who have map mobility and chasing powers yet still struggle to hold their own.
I will say though, 400% (which would be 400% * 0,25c/s = 1c/s, exactly the same speed that one survivor has at repairing a gen) base regression is a bad idea. 50% though instead of the current 25% would be nice.
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...
Why are you taking an analogy literally?
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1 person on hook is little to no pressure because unhooking and healing go faster than chasing and hooking.
That depends very much on a wide variety of circumstances. If the repairing survivors are on the other side of the map, the rescue and healing is going to take way longer. If the killer has good mobility (Sadako, Dredge, Demogorgon) a new chase can be started very quickly. You can intercept the person going for the unhook, which means the time they spent moving to the hook now benefits the killer instead.
1 person on hook is plenty of pressure, it's just not 'win the game right then and there' levels of pressure like having 2 hooked at once is. But it also shouldn't be that overbearing. 1 person on hook is the kind of pressure where neither killer nor survivors clearly have the upper hand, and the game can still go either way. It's really healthy.
Do you know what an analogy is?
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And here we go again
Survivors are allowed to use best perks, best addons, best tactics, genrush, use comms, play smart, use easy tactics ( and, i'm fine with that i don't care ) BUT killers are required to be dumb as a rock, bring only subpar perks, avoid to use any logic, avoid to use "easy tactics" because...well that's easy you don't know how to play !!!
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The irony here is that all those things you said killers determine and exaggerate can literally be applied to survivors as well and do, I’d argue even more often as well. That said I think where this falls apart is that “most” killers while pushing for changes to not make it required also are pushing for changes simultaneously that make camping/tunneling either impossible or much harder to do. So their idea of when it’s required is much less relevant since in order to get the improvements they want their idea of when they need doesn’t matter as much since they can’t anyway hypothetically. Very, very few killers players I see are pushing for hard survivor nerfs but just want camping and tunneling left just as viable. Generally speaking that isn’t a thing. We’re essentially going into talking about bias opinions or both sides here is what it boils down to of which many will exist, but I think we can objectively look at balance with enough experience to try and make as close to objective changes as we can so that either sides bias view will just be that, views, and less a factor on deciding to or not tunnel/camp.
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That said I think where this falls apart is that “most” killers while pushing for changes to not make it required also are pushing for changes simultaneously that make camping/tunneling either impossible or much harder to do.
They're not. That's the problem. They are adamantly against camping/tunnelling nerfs, and want 12-hooking to be buffed to the point where it exceeds camping/tunnelling in efficiency, -without- nerfs being applied to camping/tunnelling.
I appreciate that you may be of the opinion that camping/tunnelling should get nerfed, but that wasn't the case for the crowd that BHVR listened to when they designed 6.1 and onwards.
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I'm still waiting for you to respond to my earlier question regarding your claim.
Which killers specifically asked for any of this?
I'm looking for names. Because you keep claiming this, but you haven't even tried to back it up once.
If you can't back it up...then why are you fabricating some sort of 'killer/BHVR' conspiracy theory?
Do you know what an analogy is?
In this case? Figurative speech designed to illustrate a point by comparing one of the items under discourse to another.
He's saying that telling killers to 2-hook everyone before killing anyone is like telling survivors they need to partially complete 5 gens before finishing any of them.
That depends very much on a wide variety of circumstances. If the repairing survivors are on the other side of the map, the rescue and healing is going to take way longer. If the killer has good mobility (Sadako, Dredge, Demogorgon) a new chase can be started very quickly. You can intercept the person going for the unhook, which means the time they spent moving to the hook now benefits the killer instead.
Can is the operative word here. It's a possibility, sure, but it's not exactly a likelihood.
Also...what's Demo doing on that list? Demo isn't going to be intercepting, he's going to be using his portals to try and pressure gens. Then generally losing because of how bad shred is now.
They are adamantly against camping/tunnelling nerfs,
Okay, let me ask again because you keep dodging this.
Who is 'they'?
and want 12-hooking to be buffed to the point where it exceeds camping/tunnelling in efficiency, -without- nerfs being applied to camping/tunnelling.
And again.
Who, specifically, is asking for this?
Can you give some examples?
I appreciate that you may be of the opinion that camping/tunnelling should get nerfed, but that wasn't the case for the crowd that BHVR listened to when they designed 6.1 and onwards.
See above.
- Who exactly is BHVR listening to?
- Be as specific as you can.
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Yeah, I wasn't responding to the 'stop doing gens at 33%' part, darling.
Also...what's Demo doing on that list? Demo isn't going to be intercepting, he's going to be using his portals to try and pressure gens.
That's what I'm referring to. I specifically mentioned him as a killer that, after hooking a survivor, can very quickly start a new chase.
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Yeah, I wasn't responding to the 'stop doing gens at 33%' part, darling.
I can assure you, I'm not your 'darling'...that's some mad creeper energy there, mate.
Then what part, specifically, were you responding to? Because you block quoted.
That's what I'm referring to. I specifically mentioned him as a killer that, after hooking a survivor, can very quickly start a new chase.
Sure. And survivors can, potentially, blow up all 5 gens in around 3-4 minutes with the right perks and offerings - rendering this entire discussion moot.
How about we stop focusing on 'can' and instead look at how the game actually plays out on the ground?
What's much more likely on Demo is he hooks, then he does a KI scan with his portals, then zooms off to the furthest gen. He's not really an interceptor.
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No, killers didn't ask for it, they simply pointed out that because of how the game is in its current state, camping and tunneling is a viable way to secure kills. It doesn't mean that wanted that to be the most efficient tactic available.
You're conflating the issue by suggesting that because killers pointed out an objective fact, that its what they wanted all along, which simply isn't true.
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I'm...honestly not sure what they are trying to do besides some vague hand-wavey:
'Oh yes, all those killers are to blame!'
'Which killers?'
'THOSE killers, all THOSE killers'
'No, which killers, specifically?'
'...' <silence>
It's like the inverse of a NTS fallacy. We'll see if @Firellius can actually back this one up, especially their claim that BHVR are conspiring with this invisible, secret organization of killers - so secret that I don't think I've seen a single credible one in recent memory - to make tunneling stronger.
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I sort of thought this would've fizzled out by now tbh
Guess I was wrong
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Gen progress is pretty crazy if you don't run certain slowdown. I play Huntress with full aura-reading and chase perks and there are games where even when I find survivors quickly and down them quickly, gens are still flying simply because I'm not running anything to stop them.
If finding and ending chases quickly isn't enough slowdown to stop survivors, there's a problem.
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I guess we’re just going to disagree then, I do think most killer players that want 12 hook games viable want camping/tunneling much weaker or impossible. If 12 hook games against equally skilled high mmr swf groups was viable I would even give the unhooked people zero collision until a conspicuous action or another person was hooked so they literally couldn’t be tunneled. (exceptions would need to be made for certain circumstances of course). People that do want 12 hook games viable but don’t want changes to camping/tunneling I would not agree with then. I don’t want them to exist they’re only forced to in the current state. We at least agree on wanting the same end goals though.
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When I watch that demo game I see exactly why tunneling is such a bad habit for killers to get into. At the end of the game he mentions that if you want to take anything from that game it is you need to tunnel people(14:50). But lets look at how to actually get wins without needing to tunnel.
First, his build makes no sense. You should never run CI and LP together on demo. If you want to run either it is fine but both perks are doing opposite things for early game. If you run LP then you are looking to drop portal on spawn and go straight into a chase while CI you are looking for a portal setup.
His add-ons continue this trend by not synergizing with his build. With those add-ons I would go with a kick build and put portals on top of the gens. If he wanted to go aggro then maybe the bbq and barbs add-on for quickly getting in chase and better pallet break. Barb's glasses is imo demo's best add-on and only is a yellow.
For that meg save I would go after her. It's a survivor induced tunnel in that scenario. They should maybe play better and not put themselves in that position in the first place. I wouldn't consider that tunneling just like if a survivor ran at me isn't me tunneling if I chase them.
You can keep track of hook states and not go for a 8 hook games before killing someone. You can simply ignore one survivor and focus on getting hook states with the other 3. You can literally have the first death with 1 gen remaining and you win because the other 2 survivors will have hooks on them. It sucks for the one guys but you are giving chase for the other 3. This makes the game now 9 hooks for a win and 7 hooks would be your max before a kill with the other 2 on death hook. Now this doesn't always work but it's a very good tactic to use in general.
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Finally a big streamer shows the reason behind tunneling. I wonder what happens when the people that complain about tunneling, get their will and some basekit mechanic against it gets introduced.
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the only way to fix tunnelling is to heavily incentivize going for someone new. You could chase the full health Feng Min with 2/3 health states, or you can cut your time spent in half, and go for the injured Ace, wait out his bt, repeat this a few times and now the survivors are one person less. Its the best strategy for any killer.
Whether its a perk or a base ability, they need to make it equally or more benefitial to go for someone new. Either increased gen kick/regression (a base kit pop you only get when hooking someone different than the last person), or something equally strong. Until that happens, tunnelling will be the best strat, and with the nerfs to camping, hit and run especially, and the fact that adrenaline is meta making endgame builds harder, it will remain the best
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Here's the thing though.
The meta trickles down from the top.
At a certain level of play, killers need to tunnel to even stand a chance of contesting a game. Now, this isn't representative of all levels of play - naturally - but if you force killers to 2 hook before killing anyone, you'd completely break comp or high MMR.
A perk to incentivize it...what would that even look like?
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In summary: tunneling can’t be taken out because of game design. Also, killers are skilless for doing it and bringing strong perks, but survivor stuff is all fair play.
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i dont know, but it would have to be VERY strong. Old bbq sort of did it, but if people wanted to win, they didnt care about bp. its a nearly unwinnable battle
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It would need to be at least a BP doubler like old BBQ with a powerful other benefit yeah.
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Exhibit A: 6.1.0 PTB Initial testing patch for the major perk changes. Where OTR would stack with (then 5s) base BT, allowing a survivor immediately hit off hook to take a BT hit, then still use OTR after to actually deter tunneling. This was heavily complained about on the forums and Reddit, especially with a couple of video clips that showed survivors throwing the game to try and stack the on hook effects. People still complain about the 'Endurance meta' even though this was only ever on PTB for about 3 days and was changed before it went live *because of feedback*.
Exhibit B: 6.2.0 PTB for Wesker chapter. Reassurance was on cooldown with infinite use during the ptb. Again, the perk was heavily complained about as being too good to counter camping and some people went as far as to say it 'could be used to hold a survivor hostage', though to this day I've still never seen evidence that this actually occurred, or could occur with a killer who isn't afk. If that was the reason for the change, the answer to griefing with it was two allow the person on hook to cancel the effect, which was also proposed as a solution to both problems. Instead, the perk was limited to one use per hook event before it went live. Again, based on feedback.
So there's absolutely some group that is vocal enough that BHVR is making changes based partially or completely on that feedback. And these changes are directly opposing both camping and tunneling.
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camping and tunneling is all a killer can do in endgame. no gens to protect, they just have to kill. reassurance and stackable endurance gave survivors a guarenteed escape in endgame
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If ds need tournament players to use it to make it useful... It tells enough for me that it's not going to do much for casual survivors. Still my main point is "almost no-one" uses it anymore. I still use it because it work agains't m1 killers and it removes deep wound so you can use dh after that but it's barely nothing for nurse or blight and most common hard tunneler I see is the latter. It definetely is not bonkers powerful only dh is and to make that combo ds to dh strong it requires killer to make mistake as he should expect dh after getting hit by ds.
Eruption hook survivor go kick gens and return to hook to tunnel. I use this tactic too sometimes and it's very powerful you can make the other 3 survivors useless once they get hit by eruption and especially good tactic for fast killer who can go in seconds to kick gens and almost immediately to return. STBL also got better as 2 stacks were made basekit so you barely get cooldown between hits.
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While i do agree that tunneling is a necessity against gen effecient survivors i do have to say
If the survivors gen progress is ever 400% outside of the first 15 seconds of the match you are doing somethibg terribly wrong...
1 hook already drops it to 200% from a hooked survivor and a resquer. Getting in chase before the unhook happens makes it 100%
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For someone with his play time to say something clearly false. It has to be click bait for views. I've also seen a couple other YT/Twitch personalities bring up this BS.
Anyone who has played this game since 2016 will know this is BS.
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