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Otzdarva: On Tunneling Being 'Worse'.

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Comments

  • Member Posts: 20,908

    Thank you.

    I was really hoping that I was sounding reasonable and fair.

  • Member Posts: 2,439

    I have an absurd killer rate on blight and I have to go out of my way to play at a time where I think mmr will match me better. MMR essentially doesn't function before 12AM on na for me. Maybe they are cracked vs m1 killer, but I would consider them below average vs blight before 12AM. Most players in this game are bad and even if they are running really good builds it will never make up for their decision making.

  • Member Posts: 13,671

    I agree most players are bad and I agree before prime time the quality of survivors in most matches is much lower, not disagreeing with any of that. Blights also one of the high tier killers that I wouldn't apply most of the things I've said to, he's one of the exceptions.

  • Member Posts: 20,908

    I played in a sort of comp match the other week, so yeah, I get it. It's just not something you see out in the wild as it were.

  • Member Posts: 1,667

    As killer main, this is not what we wanted (or at least it's not what I WANTED)... my dream was a game where you play the game without the needing of "play optimally" (aka being rewarded properly for doing various chases/doing other things that won't involve pressing m1 on a generator) and effectively deny the most efficient and boring/annoying ways to play (genrush, slugging, bodyblock with endurance on purpose, tunneling, etc etc) and punish toxicity (both in endgame chat and ingame actions such as hitting repeatedly someone on the hook and tbag/flashlight click spam) for both sides through some added mechanics. But obviously BHVR took a wrong road on that matter and now we are stuck in this situation. You know, i found funny the fact that survivors told to killers multiple times to adapt every time that something was nerfed/changed instead of thinking why they were complaining about the nerf/change (look at pop goes to weasel, ruin and bbq for example: people kept defending those perks because they were HEALTHY for the game, incentivizing the killer to go away from the hook and being rewarded for it). Some people are biased i'll give you that, but not all the killer mains want to see survivors nerfed to the ground (same thing for certain survivor mains that i found in my matches)

  • Member Posts: 91
  • Member Posts: 515

    I just wanted to say thanks to Otz for making such a clear public statement about tunneling.

    The very first game I played tonight someone went off on me for being a talentless, pathetic, tunneling terrible person.

    All I wanted to do was test some spirit add-ons to see if I could play her without head phones.

  • Member Posts: 184

    I think the game is in a really bad state right now. I have lost all interest in playing killer personally.

  • Member Posts: 4,539

    TBF, in regards to Reassurance: That is what the community wanted it to be good at. But like 3 killer players complained that they weren't guaranteed a free kill if they just facecamped someone all the way into end-game, so the perk got a nerf specifically to make it really bad for solo players, and make it really bad against camping.

    So clearly, while everyone wanted Reassurance to be an anti-camp perk, BHVR didn't.

  • Member Posts: 1,324
    edited February 2023

    I have gotten so much value out of reassurance against camping killers. Bubbas end up with their 1 kill and less than 10k bloodpoints usually too. Had a match ( SoloQ) where 3 of us had reassurance. Bubba literally stood at the hook all 5 gens and rest of us 3 got out. Was it fun for the person in the hook, probably not but that person understood that buying us that time secured a 3 man out and bubba got nothing.

    Its by no means a useless perk and can work in soloQ as well.

  • Member Posts: 11,534

    I’d be cool with that. I run it quite often since it feels rewarding when it activates at a critical point in the game

  • Member Posts: 1,700

    Of course 90 sec is pbly too much then (or 5 gens in total).

    Didnt survivor always say gens are boring? Focus the game around chases!

  • Member Posts: 5,887

    Survivors can recover very quickly from whichever bad situation they find themselves in, as long as it's nothing permanent. That means there is no pressure in having all 4 survivors injured when they can all heal up in 20 seconds, 1 person on hook is little to no pressure because unhooking and healing go faster than chasing and hooking. If a killer can keep up the cycle of hooking and chasing with only 2 survivors on gens, then that's an easy game for them. I have more than 1400 hours on killer and I almost NEVER can keep this cycle up. Unhooking + healing often takes around 15-20 seconds (keep in mind that this can go MUCH quicker). With many killers I'll be happy to be in another chase after those 20 seconds!

    It's not 1 survivor on gens, 1 in chase, 1 on hook and 1 on the way to unhook all game. This is a situation that will occur but most of the time it's 3 survivors on gens and 1 in chase. Maybe Nurse and Blight can keep this up. But tell me how in the world would you apply this kind of pressure with Michael Myers, Sadako, Doctor, Clown, Trapper.... all the way up to even Hillbilly and Demo, who have map mobility and chasing powers yet still struggle to hold their own.

    I will say though, 400% (which would be 400% * 0,25c/s = 1c/s, exactly the same speed that one survivor has at repairing a gen) base regression is a bad idea. 50% though instead of the current 25% would be nice.

  • Member Posts: 4,539

    1 person on hook is little to no pressure because unhooking and healing go faster than chasing and hooking.

    That depends very much on a wide variety of circumstances. If the repairing survivors are on the other side of the map, the rescue and healing is going to take way longer. If the killer has good mobility (Sadako, Dredge, Demogorgon) a new chase can be started very quickly. You can intercept the person going for the unhook, which means the time they spent moving to the hook now benefits the killer instead.

    1 person on hook is plenty of pressure, it's just not 'win the game right then and there' levels of pressure like having 2 hooked at once is. But it also shouldn't be that overbearing. 1 person on hook is the kind of pressure where neither killer nor survivors clearly have the upper hand, and the game can still go either way. It's really healthy.

    Do you know what an analogy is?

  • Member Posts: 13,671
    edited February 2023

    The irony here is that all those things you said killers determine and exaggerate can literally be applied to survivors as well and do, I’d argue even more often as well. That said I think where this falls apart is that “most” killers while pushing for changes to not make it required also are pushing for changes simultaneously that make camping/tunneling either impossible or much harder to do. So their idea of when it’s required is much less relevant since in order to get the improvements they want their idea of when they need doesn’t matter as much since they can’t anyway hypothetically. Very, very few killers players I see are pushing for hard survivor nerfs but just want camping and tunneling left just as viable. Generally speaking that isn’t a thing. We’re essentially going into talking about bias opinions or both sides here is what it boils down to of which many will exist, but I think we can objectively look at balance with enough experience to try and make as close to objective changes as we can so that either sides bias view will just be that, views, and less a factor on deciding to or not tunnel/camp.

  • Member Posts: 8,077
    edited February 2023

    @Firellius

    I'm still waiting for you to respond to my earlier question regarding your claim.

    Which killers specifically asked for any of this?

    I'm looking for names. Because you keep claiming this, but you haven't even tried to back it up once.

    If you can't back it up...then why are you fabricating some sort of 'killer/BHVR' conspiracy theory?

    Do you know what an analogy is?

    In this case? Figurative speech designed to illustrate a point by comparing one of the items under discourse to another.

    He's saying that telling killers to 2-hook everyone before killing anyone is like telling survivors they need to partially complete 5 gens before finishing any of them.

    That depends very much on a wide variety of circumstances. If the repairing survivors are on the other side of the map, the rescue and healing is going to take way longer. If the killer has good mobility (Sadako, Dredge, Demogorgon) a new chase can be started very quickly. You can intercept the person going for the unhook, which means the time they spent moving to the hook now benefits the killer instead.

    Can is the operative word here. It's a possibility, sure, but it's not exactly a likelihood.

    Also...what's Demo doing on that list? Demo isn't going to be intercepting, he's going to be using his portals to try and pressure gens. Then generally losing because of how bad shred is now.

    They are adamantly against camping/tunnelling nerfs, 

    Okay, let me ask again because you keep dodging this.

    Who is 'they'?

    and want 12-hooking to be buffed to the point where it exceeds camping/tunnelling in efficiency, -without- nerfs being applied to camping/tunnelling.

    And again.

    Who, specifically, is asking for this?

    Can you give some examples?

    I appreciate that you may be of the opinion that camping/tunnelling should get nerfed, but that wasn't the case for the crowd that BHVR listened to when they designed 6.1 and onwards.

    See above.

    • Who exactly is BHVR listening to?
    • Be as specific as you can.
  • Member Posts: 4,539

    Yeah, I wasn't responding to the 'stop doing gens at 33%' part, darling.

    Also...what's Demo doing on that list? Demo isn't going to be intercepting, he's going to be using his portals to try and pressure gens.

    That's what I'm referring to. I specifically mentioned him as a killer that, after hooking a survivor, can very quickly start a new chase.

  • Member Posts: 8,077

    @Firellius

    Yeah, I wasn't responding to the 'stop doing gens at 33%' part, darling.

    I can assure you, I'm not your 'darling'...that's some mad creeper energy there, mate.

    Then what part, specifically, were you responding to? Because you block quoted.

    That's what I'm referring to. I specifically mentioned him as a killer that, after hooking a survivor, can very quickly start a new chase.

    Sure. And survivors can, potentially, blow up all 5 gens in around 3-4 minutes with the right perks and offerings - rendering this entire discussion moot.

    How about we stop focusing on 'can' and instead look at how the game actually plays out on the ground?

    What's much more likely on Demo is he hooks, then he does a KI scan with his portals, then zooms off to the furthest gen. He's not really an interceptor.

  • Member Posts: 8,077

    I'm...honestly not sure what they are trying to do besides some vague hand-wavey:

    'Oh yes, all those killers are to blame!'

    'Which killers?'

    'THOSE killers, all THOSE killers'

    'No, which killers, specifically?'

    '...' <silence>

    It's like the inverse of a NTS fallacy. We'll see if @Firellius can actually back this one up, especially their claim that BHVR are conspiring with this invisible, secret organization of killers - so secret that I don't think I've seen a single credible one in recent memory - to make tunneling stronger.

  • Member Posts: 20,908

    I sort of thought this would've fizzled out by now tbh

    Guess I was wrong

  • Member Posts: 2,475

    Gen progress is pretty crazy if you don't run certain slowdown. I play Huntress with full aura-reading and chase perks and there are games where even when I find survivors quickly and down them quickly, gens are still flying simply because I'm not running anything to stop them.

    If finding and ending chases quickly isn't enough slowdown to stop survivors, there's a problem.

  • Member Posts: 13,671
    edited February 2023

    I guess we’re just going to disagree then, I do think most killer players that want 12 hook games viable want camping/tunneling much weaker or impossible. If 12 hook games against equally skilled high mmr swf groups was viable I would even give the unhooked people zero collision until a conspicuous action or another person was hooked so they literally couldn’t be tunneled. (exceptions would need to be made for certain circumstances of course). People that do want 12 hook games viable but don’t want changes to camping/tunneling I would not agree with then. I don’t want them to exist they’re only forced to in the current state. We at least agree on wanting the same end goals though.

  • Member Posts: 15,095

    Finally a big streamer shows the reason behind tunneling. I wonder what happens when the people that complain about tunneling, get their will and some basekit mechanic against it gets introduced.

  • Member Posts: 519

    the only way to fix tunnelling is to heavily incentivize going for someone new. You could chase the full health Feng Min with 2/3 health states, or you can cut your time spent in half, and go for the injured Ace, wait out his bt, repeat this a few times and now the survivors are one person less. Its the best strategy for any killer.

    Whether its a perk or a base ability, they need to make it equally or more benefitial to go for someone new. Either increased gen kick/regression (a base kit pop you only get when hooking someone different than the last person), or something equally strong. Until that happens, tunnelling will be the best strat, and with the nerfs to camping, hit and run especially, and the fact that adrenaline is meta making endgame builds harder, it will remain the best

  • Member Posts: 8,077

    Here's the thing though.

    The meta trickles down from the top.

    At a certain level of play, killers need to tunnel to even stand a chance of contesting a game. Now, this isn't representative of all levels of play - naturally - but if you force killers to 2 hook before killing anyone, you'd completely break comp or high MMR.

    A perk to incentivize it...what would that even look like?

  • Member Posts: 519

    i dont know, but it would have to be VERY strong. Old bbq sort of did it, but if people wanted to win, they didnt care about bp. its a nearly unwinnable battle

  • Member Posts: 8,077

    It would need to be at least a BP doubler like old BBQ with a powerful other benefit yeah.

  • Member Posts: 519

    camping and tunneling is all a killer can do in endgame. no gens to protect, they just have to kill. reassurance and stackable endurance gave survivors a guarenteed escape in endgame

  • Member Posts: 3,522

    If ds need tournament players to use it to make it useful... It tells enough for me that it's not going to do much for casual survivors. Still my main point is "almost no-one" uses it anymore. I still use it because it work agains't m1 killers and it removes deep wound so you can use dh after that but it's barely nothing for nurse or blight and most common hard tunneler I see is the latter. It definetely is not bonkers powerful only dh is and to make that combo ds to dh strong it requires killer to make mistake as he should expect dh after getting hit by ds.

    Eruption hook survivor go kick gens and return to hook to tunnel. I use this tactic too sometimes and it's very powerful you can make the other 3 survivors useless once they get hit by eruption and especially good tactic for fast killer who can go in seconds to kick gens and almost immediately to return. STBL also got better as 2 stacks were made basekit so you barely get cooldown between hits.

  • Member Posts: 9,248
    edited February 2023

    For someone with his play time to say something clearly false. It has to be click bait for views. I've also seen a couple other YT/Twitch personalities bring up this BS.

    Anyone who has played this game since 2016 will know this is BS.

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