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What no one seems to talk about with Dead Hard
It's bad enough that Dead Hard punishes the Killer for hitting the Survivor, it's bad enough that it's essentially impossible to avoid triggering it with many Killer powers, it's bad enough that it can be used to force no-win situations at pallets, but what Dead Hard also does is remove full-length lunges as an option.
If you lunge from the maximum distance, it comes out slowly enough that Survivors can simply Dead Hard on reaction. Whether you're out in the open or just far enough from a pallet or window that a lunge can catch you, Dead Hard has you covered if the Killer goes for it.
A single Survivor perk makes one of the core gameplay options available to every Killer almost completely useless.
Comments
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This is like saying "you can just let go of the gen" in response to Eruption criticism.
As TC rightly says, this means you cannot use a Lunge attack without risking a DH. You're denied half of your basic tools for injuring survivors.
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No, you can't bait the hit when you have to win a mind game just to get the distance to try to land a maximum distance lunge before the pallet drop.
This is not hard to comprehend.
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lol no?
The only counter to eruption is SWF comms. Deadhard can be countered by waiting it out, using a perk/add-on/killer ability that inflicts Deep Wound, or forcing exhaustion in some way. It also can't be used with other exhaustion perks, so if you see one be used you can deep lunge away.
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For pallets argument:
For powers - it's true for ranged killers. But there's no reaction to most killers. As DH got to 0.5s - you can now wait it out even with nurse. Most of the killers can avoid it now (but some can't).
For full lounge - it's the other way around. I find it quite a reliable way how to bait out DH. Just miss on purpose with full distance lounge if the survivor is hard to force to DH in other ways. Remember that DH is an exhaustion perk and 1.5s slowdown is a lot less in wasted time compared to sprints...
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Why did you even post this video? The literal second sentence of it was "This is by no means 100%", the key part of the video's strategy is to NOT LUNGE, and it concluded by saying the Survivor can simply drop the pallet and get the stun anyway if they know you're not going to lunge.
So, never actually use your lunge to hit the survivors. Just miss on purpose so they get another loop or make it to the next tile. And this disproves my point how?
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Yeah it can create lose-lose micro situations for a killer. For example there's situations where you could lunge to stop a survivor from vaulting but if you do they use dead hard. But you are not close enough for a quick attack. Either way they are getting away. Sometimes it seems better to just hit go through the 3rd health state.
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Eruption can be countered by waiting it out. Stop repairing until the person that is being chased is downed, the gen pops and you can keep repairing it. Hell with the new HUD you can even know when the non-obsession is being chased.
But let's be honest, no one is going to do that because it is "not fun" to do nothing until eruption pops, and that's actually pretty understandable.
And the exact same thing can be said about DH.
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1, you said there's nothing that can be done. I just showed you there's something. Does it favor survivors? Sure it does. Does being in open favor killers? That's true as well.
The fact that it's not 100% is good. It gives opportunities for both sides. Asking for 100% counter is like asking for it being physically impossible to hook same survivor twice if nobody else was hooked in the meantime - unrealistic and bad for game.
About the lounge - it means you can mindgame it even more - you don't need (and shouldn't) miss on purpose all the time. And all exhaustions (maybe except headon) are designed to prolong chases. So you ask what's the alternative? That survivor runs off with sprint burst? Will you complain about sprint after DH then?
There's no information for actually knowing when to dodge it (but being SWF). With DH you get the info and can mindgame. That's totally different. Not even comparable
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I hope you're trolling.
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I doubt it. Now you know how I feel when people tell me "Just wait it out bruh".
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Being near a pallet is already a highly favorable scenario for survivors. Then Dead Hard comes along and complicates things even more for the Killer. Or if the Survivor is caught in the open, Dead Hard buys them an extra 3-5 seconds at minimum, maybe even gets them to the next pallet.
Also, Scott's scenario assumes that the Survivor ASSUMES you're going to lunge before you actually do it. If Survivors don't make that assumption and only DH on reaction instead, there's still nothing you can do.
Even if a Survivor falls for a fake lunge every single time, the perk still extended the chase considerably. Missing a lunge is costly. And I'd gladly play a hundred games against Sprint Burst if it meant I'd never have to worry about Dead Hard again.
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again. missing hit prolongs the chase less then other exhaustion perks. Will you move the goal post to sprint/lithe/balanced/overcome/... once DH is nerfed?
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I already said no. What part of "I'd gladly play a hundred games against Sprint Burst if it meant I'd never have to worry about Dead Hard again" do you not understand?
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So I'm not misinterpreting what you're saying:
You're saying to intentionally swing at the air when you could have hit them and "miss" so that the survivor thinks your bad and that will allow you to land the next one because they aren't expecting it or they will use it by accident when you missed on purpose?
Is that what you're saying is the counter play?
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You are misinterpreting.
1x you lounge at them from distance deliberately missing. For now this will always surprise at least 1st survivor and he will just use DH shortening his speed (so he is in fact guaranteed to have less value from DH then any other perk). You can do that even 2nd time, but probably not 3rd time (where he will expect you to miss on purpose). Of course if you are in the open or at window with option to wait it out for exactly 0.5s, then you have 0 reason to swing at the air.
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Then I am not misinterpreting. You literally just repeated what I had said.
Firstly, most survivors will not waste their DH on a lunge not going to hit them. That's assuming the survivor is really bad.
Secondly, even if the survivor is bad and somehow that did happen, that miss is allowing them enough time to reach a pallet or window defeating the point.
However that second point is still quite irrelevant as survivors that are that bad are not an issue with DH, it's survivors that aren't bad. I'm not arguing DH doesn't take a lot of skill, it does, I'm arguing it's unhealthy in design/unfun and power level.
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you cant trigger overcome by missing a hit lmao, that point is irrelavent
lithe and sprint burst arent as strong because they cant be controlled. as soon as you sprint/vault, they trigger
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I hear a lot of people suggesting that Sprint Burst has no counterplay as Killer. Because there's nothing you can do as Killer to prevent that 3 second speed boost. Well, if that's the case, DH doesn't have any counterplay either.
Whatever the Killer does, the Survivor can always get some value out of it. Either by tanking a hit with it, or by forcing you to play around it.
But, like with DH, there are things we can do to minimize the value the Survivor gets out of Sprint Burst. You can wait before you swing at a walking Survivor, you can spook the Survivor and then drop the chase to make them waste it, you can stand between them and their nearest escape route, or you can run Fearmonger.
The difference is, DH takes away basic gameplay options from the Killer. It comes out at the end of the chase, after you've already committed a LOT of time and energy to chasing them. It punishes the Killer for getting a hit. It punishes you for picking specific Killers. It's a third health state. And it makes you feel like you were cheated out of a down in a way that no Sprint Burst ever could.
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"Eruption can be countered by waiting it out."
My brother in the fog, Eruption is on the generator until somebody goes down.
What are you talking about waiting it out?
What if that survivor is good at chases and they don't go down for minutes? What if the killer has no idea what the words "Abandon Chase" mean? Are you really going to "wait it out" when you could complete the generator 4 times in the time it takes for them to go down?
No. No, the exact same thing CAN'T be said about DH. You can play around DH, change your strategies on the fly, purposefully miss attacks. You can't psychically guess when a survivor is about to go down.
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You're assuming people just know when someone is going to hit them. You have less than a single second to determine that the killer that is in striking distance is going to hit you or swerve out of the way. You have to determine, within that time, what they are going to do.
Ya know, that whole "Mind Gaming" thing people claim to like?
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And the Survivor has Dead Hard until they press E. I've seen Killers with thousands of hours spend over a minute waiting out Dead Hard. And I guarantee you, had they actually swung into it in the end, you'd be the first to say, "It was so obvious, shouldn't have fallen for it".
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This is quite the interesting discussion. I'd like to add some of my own thoughts and opinions.
- On the survivor side 2 of the strongest types of perks are 1. Exhaustion (Sprint Burst) and 2. Second Chance (Deliverance).
- DH is one of the few perks that provides BOTH of these perks benefits (adrenaline being another but a healthier one IMO)
- Eruption can be countered with info, but SWF is not required for that info. Fogwise+Bond (or many other perk combinations) can assist with knowing when you teammate is about to go down (even in soloq). I consistently run Bond in soloq and can often tell when a teammate is about to go down.
- DH is unhealthy for multiple reasons, but is also a fun and powerful perk (thus why it is so divisiveness)
- Personally, I think DH is too strong seeing as it is so strong and frequently used that even in a game without any DH, the killer has basically been "trained" to play around it. (This is a difficult topic that isn't so black and white though. There is a reasonable level of "playing around perks/items in anticipation" before they are confirmed. However, DH has far passed this "reasonable level IMO)
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and it removes the threat of a survivor making a mistake. overestimated howmany times you can loop shack? just dh!
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Yet with so unfair and overpowered perk, killers win 90% of the time. Sorry, 95%, in my experience. You are frustrated about these 5%?
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The big thing with Dead hard is that it does work for 100% of survivors, picked or not.
It COMPLETELY affects the decision making of killers at all time.
I personnally live by the idea of "Don't lose to perk you didn't see yet"...
But just like NOED from killer, both DH and BT are hidden until its too late.
If it procs even just once, it did its job and effectively won you the game right then and there... but wait, there's more! Those perks continue to provide value as long as their conditions are met, which frankly, the conditions are jokes.
That's the issue, for all intent and purposes, when survivors have DH... the killer is effectively chasing 1.5x longer, or more, due to a 3rd health state... for the low low cost of pressing E (it's not hard to use? Hello?)
It's both a second chance perk but also has a SB built into it and can turn certain killers like oni into m1 killers by tanking moves that would otherwise insta down
It's a game breaking perk right now, no less.
Map design with all the god pallets everywhere, safe windows and the huge size of them exacerbate this issue even more.
The devs needs to address this asap!
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Exactly. It's still little more than a crutch perk, honestly; I've seen a lot of mediocre Survivors who over-rely on it in chase.
And it's not hard to see why that happens: "The survivor pressed E so they get a free speed boost instead of going down now"
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If someone actually mind games you into sniffing their ass for a literal minute and still manages to land the Dead Hard it's not someone having a crutch perk, it's someone having a good reaction.
I've noticed nobody likes to talk about the Dead Hards that don't work because they didn't push it early enough.
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Almost like the whole "Just wait it out" argument crumbles when you consider Survivors are perfectly capable of waiting too.
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I'm sorry are we in some alternative universe where the gameplay for both sides of DBD are exactly the same?
You can't wait out eruption mate. Once it's applied it's on there until it gets used. If you wait it out you accomplish literally nothing until someone goes down which, let's just use the above example for this one, means you're waiting more than a minute standing there with your thumb up your ass.
Even if you have no perks or items whatsoever chances are the generator would be done within that time.
Countering Dead Hard requires being unpredictable. Countering Eruption requires being a ######### psychic.
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Do you feel that anger, that frustration? That's what Killers feel every time someone tells them Dead Hard is fine.
If you wait out Dead Hard you accomplish literally nothing until Dead Hard gets used. You think Killers get anything for staring at a Survivor's back for a full minute? Even with no perks or powers whatsoever, chances are the chase would be over within that time.
Countering Dead Hard requires you to not perform actions that would otherwise be a winning play. And would you look at that, so does Eruption. They have quite a bit in common, really. Frustrating for many of the same reasons. Every instance of you pressing M1 turns from a no-brainer to a calculated risk that could easily backfire.
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Ya know what, it's not my fault that you spend so much time staring at a survivor that probably doesn't have it in the first place that you're running a horse race around the map.
If you're literally spending a minute looking at people, it's time you stop blaming Dead Hard and start blaming your own decisions to throw away the game.
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1) They did have it, and 2) I didn't say I personally was experiencing it, I said a Killer player with thousands of hours had. A player much better than you or I, mind you. See for yourself:
So, which is it? Is he a bad player for just waiting it out forever, or is he a bad player for swinging into it? Because waiting it out quite literally can go on forever if the Survivor so chooses; the onus is on the Killer to attack.
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We should also get rid of Dead Hard, because perks that punish killers for having good ping, shouldn’t exist.
The perk is frustrating for survivors when the killer has bad ping, and it’s frustrating for killers when the killer has good ping, and it’s overall causing so much grief and drama that it needs to be heavily nerfed.
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By the same argument, we should disable killer's ability to hit survivors at all. There are very few things more frustrating then vaulting a window, finishing animation, doing 2 steps away and then falling to the ground. And yet this is common occurance at least here in EU (because devs refused to create separate russian servers).
The point is - you can't disable things because of ping, because you would need to remove game's most fundamental principle.
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Or.... we could argue that BHVR needs to find a solution for the EU server latency, and not let an issue that is specific to one server, create game decisions that effect every other server on the planet.
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Dead hard is luck and latency based I click it half the time and get exhausted on the floor it’s a fun perk and it’s less reliable than sprint burst vigil which wins me so many more games and chases just the fact I love hitting a dh
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The only change I would like to see to Dead Hard is not being able to use it on ranged powers. Really really hard to counter Dead Hard when using a ranged killer. Other than that, I think it's fine now. If a survivor waits a Dead Hard out and times it right they deserve the payoff.
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Dead Hard latency is weird, you kind of have to time it a little early in order to actually get it to work due to latency.
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Yeah I found that sometimes I’ll do it Early but still get the hit and sometimes just get exhausted on the floor it depends But that’s why I think a nerf is not needed as killer I just wait it out or swing next to them lol it does require timing and extremely rewarding when you pull off
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Yeah, it is very awkward sometimes trying to time it right. Once you get a feel for the latency you can consistently do it well and it becomes a matter of just mind games.
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I'm pretty thoroughly unimpressed by DH plays. 99'ing a Sprint Burst deserves a payoff. Pressing E does not.
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This isn’t old DH, you can’t just DH to safety if you mess up at shack unless the killer is bad at baiting it. If you’re hugging the survivor there’s no way they will succesfully DH unless they’re lucky
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Just delete it at this point
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Dead hard is a strong perk can't argue on that. However, using it effectively requires perfect timing and killer without lag. TBH it works maybe 50% of the time. Also it helps to some degree work around such never ending problems as hits through pallets, hits after landing on the other side of the window and last but not least -killers bloodlusting unsafe pallets.
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I use SB way more than I do DH and I feel the opposite. I feel like 99'ing a SB takes significantly less skill than a long-held DH that won a mind game against the killer. I never see someone pop a SB and say wow that was a skilled play.
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I literally never use DH, only SB. And I feel the opposite. I look at most DH plays and go "Wow, that guy messed up, he just got carried so hard by E."
Dead Hard gives you an easy out when you lose a mindgame or make a silly mistake, and it shows in the average user.
Post edited by Monlyth on0 -
"Baiting it" requires all killers to stop lunging, and requires certain killers to stop using their power, which is an horrible thing to ask killers to do.
And new DH does allow people to DH to safety, because it has a sprint burst attached to it, so when people use it away from tiles, the sprint burst can often can them safely to the next tile.
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