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Do you consider walking backwards as Legion an exploit?
Comments
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@The_Crusader said:
A 360 is as cheesy as moonwalking. You might find it easy to counter but there are obviously many youtube compilations making fun of players who don't know how to counter it. Some of them made a name off 360s alone. It wasn't intentional and its just cheesing the ######### mechanics of the game.Just... spin your camera? I play on console and even I find it extremely easy to counter a 360. The trick really is to predict it. You might 360 the first time but now I will be expecting it and you probably won't get me again. If you do I guarantee it was because of frame drops. It happens often enough that I can tell the survivor think they 360'd me when in reality my screen froze for a millisecond while I swung and I miss. When the optimization patch comes, and the game becomes more stable for killer, trust I won't fall for a second 360. You get 1, use it wisely.
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It's cool doing this when there is almost no timer left for the mend bar. Just wait a bit, up you go. Deck move.
But yeah, it's not an exploit. You can also do that strat with PIG to let the trap trigger.
It won't get fixed.
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@Tsulan said:
@powerbats said:
@BACKSTABBER said:
Moonwalk is a legal as 360 is, so it wont be fixed
Wrong since 360 is easily countered which is why 360 isn't considered an exploit this isn't easily countered.
Neither are exploits. Both are just ways to play the game, which the devs haven´t thought about.
Both can be countered.
BTW, nice survivor bias. Calling killer things exploits and survivor things easily counterable.
Nice bias really, is that all you can come up with? The devs have said it's not an intended game mechanic and it CAN'T BE COUNTERED. The 460 is also not an intended game mechanic but IT CAN BE COUNTERED.
Now see the difference both unintended game mechanics, 1 is counterable one isn't thus the one that isn't is an exploit.. Don't you just love logic, it can be your friend if you let it be. 😜
Oh and as I've stated many a time I've been killer these last few months and also I've been defending killers for quite some time like NOED and DH. You know telling people that want them removed to cleanse the totems?
But hey I'm obviously survivor biased because i defend killers from survivors calling for perk removal,but thanks for telling me I'm survivor biased. So if we go by your logic then obviously if I defend survivors I'm killer biased right?
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@se05239 said:
@Tsulan said:
But i think Bloodlust should be completely removed. It was a bandaid to solve the looping issue. But it´s doing a poor job. Non looping survivors get punished and looping survivors don´t get affected by it.Make looping less viable and remove Bloodlust. I am all for that idea.
U'm all for that it needs to stay but not be as potent as it is and for Autohaven I think both blood Lodge and Gas haven need to have a tileset similar to oher other one.
Some more open areas in between piles but perhaps with a slightly higher wall here and there half height. You'd have to crouch to use them and may'be dart from one to the other when you think it's safe.
But agini many more open areas for killers to see you but also mind game possibilities galore for both sides with half height walls. Do you dare peek your head up and risk being seen or do you take the chance and leave that half height hidey spot?
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Yes, but only because there is no counter-play for a survivor, the only compromise I can see is that the mending countdown timer only activates when you are outside the killers terror radius.
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I mean, it kinda is. You're exploiting the chase and Deep Wound mechanics.
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Pallet looping is an exploit (hitbox abuse), but survivors don't complain about it, nor do they advocate for it to be removed. Hmmm...
Post edited by Acromio on3 -
Just...take a hook with legion?thesuicidefox said:@The_Crusader said:
A 360 is as cheesy as moonwalking. You might find it easy to counter but there are obviously many youtube compilations making fun of players who don't know how to counter it. Some of them made a name off 360s alone. It wasn't intentional and its just cheesing the ######### mechanics of the game.Just... spin your camera? I play on console and even I find it extremely easy to counter a 360. The trick really is to predict it. You might 360 the first time but now I will be expecting it and you probably won't get me again. If you do I guarantee it was because of frame drops. It happens often enough that I can tell the survivor think they 360'd me when in reality my screen froze for a millisecond while I swung and I miss. When the optimization patch comes, and the game becomes more stable for killer, trust I won't fall for a second 360. You get 1, use it wisely.
Survivors think they're entitled to be 100% safe all the time. Sorry but no, if you aren't at a pallet or loop then you take a hit. Its not the end of the world. Theres no dodge button in DBD for a reason. Want a dodge? Use a perk slot for dead hard, thats the idea.
360 is just something silly survivors made up because of course THEY get to make all the rules.
I shouldn't have to swing my arm 180% like an idiot just to counter their silly #########. Plus as you said its often the random freezing that makes it work. If this was fixed maybe it woukdnt be as big of an issue but it happens commonly when playing killer and taking a swing. Plus 360's are a ######### in the corn. Maybe thats just me but its hard when you can barely keep track of the survivor. Guess which realm has 5 maps? Guess which offering survivors burn the most? Thats right, coldwind.
God forbid survivors loose some cheesy crap they discovered.1 -
Killer blocks stairs while survivor is on hook - DEVS HELP!!! BAN THIS GUY!!! PLZ!!! 😭Acromio said:Pallet looping is an exploit (hitbox abuse), but survivors don't complain about it, nor they advocate for it to be removed. Hmmm...
Survivors block hook - ToTalLy LeGiT waY 2 plAy guYz!
Edit: Lets not forget how facecamping had to be fixed because survivors cried about someone blocking the hook by standing in front of it yet it's ok for THEM to block the hook by standing in front of it 🤣 this game is so survivor sided it's disgusting. Anything they cry for they get, anything they deem acceptable becomes the norm. The devs enable it because as has been said before its all about the survivors fun, not everyones fun.2 -
@powerbats said:
@Tsulan said:
@powerbats said:
@BACKSTABBER said:
Moonwalk is a legal as 360 is, so it wont be fixed
Wrong since 360 is easily countered which is why 360 isn't considered an exploit this isn't easily countered.
Neither are exploits. Both are just ways to play the game, which the devs haven´t thought about.
Both can be countered.
BTW, nice survivor bias. Calling killer things exploits and survivor things easily counterable.
Nice bias really, is that all you can come up with? The devs have said it's not an intended game mechanic and it CAN'T BE COUNTERED. The 460 is also not an intended game mechanic but IT CAN BE COUNTERED.
Now see the difference both unintended game mechanics, 1 is counterable one isn't thus the one that isn't is an exploit.. Don't you just love logic, it can be your friend if you let it be. 😜
Oh and as I've stated many a time I've been killer these last few months and also I've been defending killers for quite some time like NOED and DH. You know telling people that want them removed to cleanse the totems?
But hey I'm obviously survivor biased because i defend killers from survivors calling for perk removal,but thanks for telling me I'm survivor biased. So if we go by your logic then obviously if I defend survivors I'm killer biased right?
460 OP pls nerf!
When the killer is running backwards. Jump through a pallet or window ffs. Same counter as normal 360s have.
Killer has to adapt. Once he does, it´s called exploid.I call you biased, because you call me biased (sucks huh?)
But i love you (deep down)2 -
@Tsulan said:
460 OP pls nerf!
When the killer is running backwards. Jump through a pallet or window ffs. Same counter as normal 360s have.
You're assuming there's a pallet or window there and Legion vaults faster, running Bamboozle well you're really screed then. Red Forest well nothing close by tough, Cornfield in the open well scusk tob e you.
Killer has to adapt. Once he does, it´s called exploid.
That's not adapting that's using a mechanic in a way that's detrimental to the game since it has no counter. Since it has not counter due to be an unintended use it's an exploit. the 360 as i pointed out has counters and thus isn't an exploit.
I call you biased, because you call me biased (sucks huh?)
Your personal bias versus my logic I think logic wins and yes i know it sucks when logic beats personal biases.
But i love you (deep down)
Same here, just in a non manly sort of way.
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I personally don't do it, but only because I get more enjoyment out of using 110% speed to chase them for the basic hit.
In my eyes until they decide to rework the power to have some way to down people that, at the very least, isn't LESS efficient that being a basic M1 killer, then it shouldn't be a witchhunt for people who are using methods that DO have some semblance of efficiency. If you do play how the power is, I guess "intended," you make for a very slow, unfulfilling game as killer where you get 0-1 kills.
Mend doesn't take enough time to be worth going for wounds over downs if you're going to have to stab someone and stun yourself 4 times just to down them. The power is flawed from the ground up if you consider that mend is meant to be a legitimate stalling tactic more than a mild annoyance.
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@Killmaster said:
Yes, but only because there is no counter-play for a survivor, the only compromise I can see is that the mending countdown timer only activates when you are outside the killers terror radius.People need to stop saying this. Yes, right now, there doesn't seem to be any counter play. But that doesn't mean something won't be discovered in the future. As I said above, I've seen many instances of some new cheese being discovered and being claimed as OP because there is no counter play, only for it to be obsolete 6 months later because counter play was discovered. IDC how good you are or how many hours you have, sometimes these things take time to discover. It might not be entirely obvious either, it might even contradict what you expect. If we skip 3 months and it's still a problem then I'll be willing to accept there is no counter play.
@The_Crusader said:
Just...take a hook with legion?Survivors think they're entitled to be 100% safe all the time. Sorry but no, if you aren't at a pallet or loop then you take a hit. Its not the end of the world. Theres no dodge button in DBD for a reason. Want a dodge? Use a perk slot for dead hard, thats the idea.
360 is just something silly survivors made up because of course THEY get to make all the rules.
I shouldn't have to swing my arm 180% like an idiot just to counter their silly #########. Plus as you said its often the random freezing that makes it work. If this was fixed maybe it woukdnt be as big of an issue but it happens commonly when playing killer and taking a swing. Plus 360's are a ######### in the corn. Maybe thats just me but its hard when you can barely keep track of the survivor. Guess which realm has 5 maps? Guess which offering survivors burn the most? Thats right, coldwind.
God forbid survivors loose some cheesy crap they discovered.
Not sure what you are on. Spinning your character model is very very VERY easy to counter as long as you predict it. It's an emergent dynamic of the way movement works in the game. It's not even comparable to the situation with Legion because it has a very straightforward and simple outplay... spin your camera. I honestly can't believe you consider it an exploit. Since when is dodging an enemy's attack an exploit?
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Because its not a dodge? The only true dodge mechanic in the game is dead hard.thesuicidefox said:@Killmaster said:
Yes, but only because there is no counter-play for a survivor, the only compromise I can see is that the mending countdown timer only activates when you are outside the killers terror radius.People need to stop saying this. Yes, right now, there doesn't seem to be any counter play. But that doesn't mean something won't be discovered in the future. As I said above, I've seen many instances of some new cheese being discovered and being claimed as OP because there is no counter play, only for it to be obsolete 6 months later because counter play was discovered. IDC how good you are or how many hours you have, sometimes these things take time to discover. It might not be entirely obvious either, it might even contradict what you expect. If we skip 3 months and it's still a problem then I'll be willing to accept there is no counter play.
@The_Crusader said:
Just...take a hook with legion?Survivors think they're entitled to be 100% safe all the time. Sorry but no, if you aren't at a pallet or loop then you take a hit. Its not the end of the world. Theres no dodge button in DBD for a reason. Want a dodge? Use a perk slot for dead hard, thats the idea.
360 is just something silly survivors made up because of course THEY get to make all the rules.
I shouldn't have to swing my arm 180% like an idiot just to counter their silly #########. Plus as you said its often the random freezing that makes it work. If this was fixed maybe it woukdnt be as big of an issue but it happens commonly when playing killer and taking a swing. Plus 360's are a ######### in the corn. Maybe thats just me but its hard when you can barely keep track of the survivor. Guess which realm has 5 maps? Guess which offering survivors burn the most? Thats right, coldwind.
God forbid survivors loose some cheesy crap they discovered.
Not sure what you are on. Spinning your character model is very very VERY easy to counter as long as you predict it. It's an emergent dynamic of the way movement works in the game. It's not even comparable to the situation with Legion because it has a very straightforward and simple outplay... spin your camera. I honestly can't believe you consider it an exploit. Since when is dodging an enemy's attack an exploit?
As you admit its taking advantage of the way movement works in the game. Its survivors trying to buy a few seconds to get to a pallet. Its essentially a free dead hard. Its cheesing the system brcause the movement is poorly done in this game.1 -
@The_Crusader said:
Because its not a dodge? The only true dodge mechanic in the game is dead hard.As you admit its taking advantage of the way movement works in the game. Its survivors trying to buy a few seconds to get to a pallet. Its essentially a free dead hard. Its cheesing the system brcause the movement is poorly done in this game.
It's actually not though. It only works against killers that fall for it. If you expect a 360 and spin your camera you hit them. There is no avoiding that, no matter how much you spin. Alternatively you can take a step backwards when they do it and they 360 into your hit.
You're like those people that say wallbouncing is an exploit in Gears of War, when the reality is that 1) they can't do it themselves, and 2) they have sh*tty aim. Top tier players can wallbounce and aim at wallbouncers no problem. Yes they will miss sometimes, but the reality is that good players understand how it works and therefore know how easy it is to counter. The trick is to predict what wall they will bounce from and aim at where they WILL BE not WHERE THEY ARE. Wallbouncing doesn't make you invincible, and in fact as of the most recent update in Gears 4 you don't heal when you bounce, meaning that in order to wallbounce up to someone without dying you actually have to be good at it or they have to have bad aim. You do that against a competent player they will just pump you full of Lancer and if you happen to make it close to them they switch to Gnasher and body you before you get into 1 shot range.
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So what was the poit in them implementing dead hard into the game?
Who needs to waste a perk slot when you can have a free dodge with NO COOLDOWN!!
I feel if killers found something like this it would get the tears flowing to no end. Hell survivors already do cry about dribbling and even disconnect because of it.1 -
@The_Crusader said:
So what was the poit in them implementing dead hard into the game?Who needs to waste a perk slot when you can have a free dodge with NO COOLDOWN!!
I feel if killers found something like this it would get the tears flowing to no end. Hell survivors already do cry about dribbling and even disconnect because of it.
Because... 360's aren't really dodging so they added an actual dodge to the game. 360 only works against bad killers. Are you really this blind? Do I need to draw pictures?
WHAT UNIVERSE AM I IN
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And like I said there are plenty of videos out there humiliating bad or inexperienced killers. Noob3 made a name off it.thesuicidefox said:@The_Crusader said:
So what was the poit in them implementing dead hard into the game?Who needs to waste a perk slot when you can have a free dodge with NO COOLDOWN!!
I feel if killers found something like this it would get the tears flowing to no end. Hell survivors already do cry about dribbling and even disconnect because of it.
Because... 360's aren't really dodging so they added an actual dodge to the game. 360 only works against bad killers. Are you really this blind? Do I need to draw pictures?
WHAT UNIVERSE AM I IN
Hows that fair on them? They're new to the game and some survivor is bullying them by cheesing the mechanics and getting a free dodge over and over again.
Want a dodge? Grind for dead hard. End of.
All 360's do is piss off new players, an there are many things that to that. You need new players to replace the old ones. You cant have them bullied and quit the game otherwise the game would die. Its not just 360's but that is one of many things.
Oh and for the record I've won plenty of games against moonwalking legions. All moonwalking legions do is punish bad teams.1 -
@powerbats said:
I call you biased, because you call me biased (sucks huh?)
Your personal bias versus my logic I think logic wins and yes i know it sucks when logic beats personal biases.
Thats no personal bias vs logic. I played both sides to rank 1 several times. Played almost exclusivly survivor for 2 months prior to the last event. Survivors killed me more than killers did. Or insulted more. Even before the match started.
Sure, survivors are more. But that´s not an excuse for how toxic survivor mains can be.
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@The_Crusader said:
And like I said there are plenty of videos out there humiliating bad or inexperienced killers. Noob3 made a name off it.IF SOMETHING WORKS AGAINST BAD OR INEXPERIENCED PLAYERS THAT DOES NOT MAKE IT AN EXPLOIT
By this logic literally everything is an exploit because bad players will fall for anything. Like seriously, learn how to spin your camera. It's not rocket science.
The fact 360 has counter play, very easy counter play actually, means it's not an exploit.
Legion walking backwards to cheese the chase mechanics may or may not have counter play. Currently no counter play is known, but that doesn't mean it doesn't exist. If it does, then it's not an exploit. If it doesn't, then it's an exploit and should be fixed.
"So what's the counter play?!" I don't know. It's possible there is none, but like I point out things can change in the future. Considering I don't ALWAYS play against a Legion, and when I do they don't ALWAYS do this tactic, it may be some time before I find proper counter play. The video posted earlier had an Adam that was actually doing a decent job of countering it by waiting at a pallet to drop on the killer then forcing a chase when they go to break.
I'm not jumping on the bandwagon that it's an exploit just because RIGHT NOW there is no counter play. Like I keep saying I've seen this sort of thing before. Case and point Halo 2, I actually know the guy that discovered the noob combo (Plasma Pistol > BR instakill). He was a high school friend that introduced me to tournament organizing many years ago. When the game came out, he was running a tournament for the game at a local LAN shop. He was also a semi-pro player in Halo CE. I was a regular there and already ran tournaments for Smash, so he invited me to be his teammate for the 2v2. He showed me the noob combo and we destroyed everyone. So many people were quick to cry fowl and say we were cheating, but it was just a simple dynamic discovered in the game to insta-kill. Skip 6 months and people found ways to play around noob combo. It was still quite powerful, but not unbeatable. Really the best counter play is to just bait the PP shot and dodge it by going behind a wall, or tossing a nade at their feet to force them to jump away and mess up the BR follow up shot. What seemed like an exploit at first wasn't later on.
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@thesuicidefox said:
@The_Crusader said:
And like I said there are plenty of videos out there humiliating bad or inexperienced killers. Noob3 made a name off it.IF SOMETHING WORKS AGAINST BAD OR INEXPERIENCED PLAYERS THAT DOES NOT MAKE IT AN EXPLOIT
That´s why we need a harder ranking system. Where reaching rank 1 actually means something. Which does not reset every month. The devs could gather information on what´s op and what not. Instead of basing their balance decisions around rank 20 players with less than 10 hours.
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@Tsulan said:
@powerbats said:
I call you biased, because you call me biased (sucks huh?)
Your personal bias versus my logic I think logic wins and yes i know it sucks when logic beats personal biases.
Thats no personal bias vs logic. I played both sides to rank 1 several times. Played almost exclusivly survivor for 2 months prior to the last event. Survivors killed me more than killers did. Or insulted more. Even before the match started.
Sure, survivors are more. But that´s not an excuse for how toxic survivor mains can be.
Just because you've played both sides ot rank 1 means nothing as you've pointed out countless times as far as bias goes. i'm referring to your comments for bias issues and look no further than some of the comments in the 1st 5 pages of this forum where you directly or indirectly bash/blame/insinuate survivors are the issue etc.
As I said go look at the person who's name is pretty obvious and change his name at the top of those posts where he's doing the same thing as you to killers. Then change your name to his where you're bashing survivors and it'll be quite obvious.
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Two words: Gen tapping.
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In a way the legion is the strongest killer!! Since survivors go down by the legion not even looking at them xD "forehead"steezo_de said:Cheesing a weakness in sloppy chase mechanic programming? Yeah I think it's exploiting. I'm for changing the Legion to make him decent. It's silly to be able to down someone in a chase by not even looking at them. I mean, at least give me a [BAD WORD] mirror with an accompanying animation so I can look behind me. THEN.. I'm all aboard.
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No other killer has this issue... Legion has the power that can be "exploited", "cheesing the chase" whatever.. Billy doesn't, nurse, spirit, clown etc...... those killers are all fine and dont need fixing when it comes to the chase....Someissues said:You don't need to look away or moonwalk. You can stare at them from a distance works too, which shows that its intended, as this killer is meant to stalk prey. If they get rid of that Legion will become trash
I can't count how many chases ended up not counting as chase and losing Bloodlust when u are right behind the survivor, the issue with Legion brings up this issue as a whole.
If they gonna fix Legion moonwalking they need to fix it for all killers, so u dont ever lose Bloodlust during a chase, just make it so in a killer terror radius
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Dear Santa;
Perhaps you could tell the OP that there might be a better way to frame the subject line. Maybe something like this;
"Do you consider, breaking chase to allow Deep Wounds to tick down while being followed by The Legion, an exploit?"
Since walking backwards in general is a normal action in Dead By Daylight, and in on itself would not be considered an exploit. Thus the OP is already misleading and biasing the discussion before it even begins.
Thanks
Timmy
P.S.
However one issue people could bring up is... Do they consider The Pig following a survivor while crouched, so the timer can keep ticking down, a bad exploit.
Do they consider any Killer following a survivor with the Deep Wound effect, with Borrowed Time, the same as when the Legion does it?
I personally feel that The Legion breaking the chase to keep Deep Wounds active is a bad exploit that should be addressed by the Devs.
I also believe that in doing this they need to look at these other variations of the same exploit to make it fair and even across the board.
Perhaps just changing how Deep Wound functions might be the trick to resolving it rather then reworking a bunch of chase stuff.
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They could reduce the TR to like 16 meters M&A will make the TR 8 at that point if survivors wanna mend or attempt to make the timer not go down there would be riskAlexAnarchy said:@Might_Oakk said:
@AlexAnarchy said:
@Might_Oakk said:
It's a cheese tactic and will be changed to terror radius. Nerfing Legion and buffing BT.So don't cry after the change if you do it.
Wouldn't call it an exploit though
changing too TR would be beyond stupid as survivors will then abuse the Legions TR.
Do you play Legion? It would be far more difficult to abuse. If you are just standing around the survivor will mend. Right now survivors are defenceless I follow them to any pallet and they are helpless.
and give them the ability to abuse the legions TR and it will be the exact same issue from when the devs tried too make the survivor not lose any timer if the killer camped the hook they was on, the very fact someone would even post making it TR based is warrant for suspicion and worry,
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Legion struggles to build pressure by moonwalking.It takes too long and he often has to walk too far. Survivors can win as a team easily. No problem.thesuicidefox said:@The_Crusader said:
And like I said there are plenty of videos out there humiliating bad or inexperienced killers. Noob3 made a name off it.IF SOMETHING WORKS AGAINST BAD OR INEXPERIENCED PLAYERS THAT DOES NOT MAKE IT AN EXPLOIT
By this logic literally everything is an exploit because bad players will fall for anything. Like seriously, learn how to spin your camera. It's not rocket science.
The fact 360 has counter play, very easy counter play actually, means it's not an exploit.
Legion walking backwards to cheese the chase mechanics may or may not have counter play. Currently no counter play is known, but that doesn't mean it doesn't exist. If it does, then it's not an exploit. If it doesn't, then it's an exploit and should be fixed.
"So what's the counter play?!" I don't know. It's possible there is none, but like I point out things can change in the future. Considering I don't ALWAYS play against a Legion, and when I do they don't ALWAYS do this tactic, it may be some time before I find proper counter play. The video posted earlier had an Adam that was actually doing a decent job of countering it by waiting at a pallet to drop on the killer then forcing a chase when they go to break.
I'm not jumping on the bandwagon that it's an exploit just because RIGHT NOW there is no counter play. Like I keep saying I've seen this sort of thing before. Case and point Halo 2, I actually know the guy that discovered the noob combo (Plasma Pistol > BR instakill). He was a high school friend that introduced me to tournament organizing many years ago. When the game came out, he was running a tournament for the game at a local LAN shop. He was also a semi-pro player in Halo CE. I was a regular there and already ran tournaments for Smash, so he invited me to be his teammate for the 2v2. He showed me the noob combo and we destroyed everyone. So many people were quick to cry fowl and say we were cheating, but it was just a simple dynamic discovered in the game to insta-kill. Skip 6 months and people found ways to play around noob combo. It was still quite powerful, but not unbeatable. Really the best counter play is to just bait the PP shot and dodge it by going behind a wall, or tossing a nade at their feet to force them to jump away and mess up the BR follow up shot. What seemed like an exploit at first wasn't later on.
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@TheMidnightRidr said:
Two words: Gen tapping.3 words: not an exploit
Now to ut it in context if someone's gen tapping to beat Ruin they're going to take forever to finish that gen and thus you as a good killer should have no problem getting them.
In fact you want to leave that person taking several minutes to finish that gen which allows you as a good killer to go after the non gen tappers.
If 1 person is gen tapping then it'll will take them at least 120 seconds to finish that gen aka 2 minutes versus a non gen tapper doing it in 40-80 seconds.
That's also assuming there's not another gen tapper there making it worse or a skill check doesn't pop up and blow the thing up.
Then throw in the good killer (you) patrolling said gens and kicking it thus regressing it before any perks like OverCharge etc get added in.
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@TheMidnightRidr said:
Two words: Gen tapping.Not bashing you, but there is a difference between the one you speak of and the unspoken one. Gen Tapping has been accepted by the Developers.
You can not compare exploits that the Developers acknowledged and accepted to new exploits that arise from new mechanics that the Developers have not acknowledged or accepted.
Basically we need to get the Developers to release an official word on this issue.
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@The_Crusader said:
Legion struggles to build pressure by moonwalking.It takes too long and he often has to walk too far. Survivors can win as a team easily. No problem.You seem to be confused.
Stating that Legion moonwalk chase MIGHT be an exploit is not the same as saying it IS an exploit. The crux of the argument falls on whether or not there is reasonable counter play. Currently no one knows how to counter it. If, in 3 months, this is still the case then chances are there is no counter play and it is an exploit. Whether it is exploit for major gain, minor gain, or no gain doesn't make a difference.
I'm sitting on the fence, though I am more inclined to believe it's not an exploit and that counter play will be found, simply based on my own experience with these sorts of things.
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Does it matter if theres no counter play? Theres none to DS and no dribbling doesn't count because its very situational and survivors will often run to areas with no hooks to trigger it.
I'm tired of these double standards on the survivor side.0 -
@TheBean said:
@TheMidnightRidr said:
Two words: Gen tapping.Not bashing you, but there is a difference between the one you speak of and the unspoken one. Gen Tapping has been accepted by the Developers.
You can not compare exploits that the Developers acknowledged and accepted to new exploits that arise from new mechanics that the Developers have not acknowledged or accepted.
Basically we need to get the Developers to release an official word on this issue.
I'm not considering it an exploit, but I do consider it to be just as cheap as moonwalking as Legion. Just as Legion disregards the defenses of a survivor by moonwalking, a survivor is able to completely negate skill checks, thus surpassing what's normally a killer's defense. They're both shameful ways to play in my eyes.
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@The_Crusader said:
Does it matter if theres no counter play? Theres none to DS and no dribbling doesn't count because its very situational and survivors will often run to areas with no hooks to trigger it.I'm tired of these double standards on the survivor side.
1) There is counter play to DS. Dribbling is counter play, why you dismiss it is beyond me. Enduring also makes DS far less impactful, and therefore can be considered counter play. Slugging is also an option. Just because someone has DS doesn't mean there is absolutely no way to play around it. Sometimes counter play is situation dependent. There is 0 counter play to Myers tapping tier 3 while directly behind you. But when it's not that situation there is counter play.
2) Counter play matters because if you can't counter it then it just becomes either an overpowered or trolly tactic. If you can counter play it then it's not an exploit.
3) Stop putting words into people's mouths. Stop assuming because someone disagrees with you it automatically makes there points survivor/killer sided whatever the case may be. And stop with the "well the OTHER side can do this this and this" as if that justifies something. That's called a tu quoque ("you too") fallacy.1 -
@The_Crusader said:
Does it matter if theres no counter play? Theres none to DS and no dribbling doesn't count because its very situational and survivors will often run to areas with no hooks to trigger it.I'm tired of these double standards on the survivor side.
Dribbling is a soft counter, slugging them, Enduring is a soft counter, Iron Grasp, UP etc are all soft counters. The only double standard here is you using the argument that you like while ignoring anything that counters it.
AD is very situational and requires you not to be dead or on the hook when the gens pop. Balanced Landing is great if you're on say Gideons Haddonfield etc but on Autohaven you're screwed.
So the survivor runs to an area without hooks to trigger it, how is that any different from not having DS in order to get downed out of range of any hooks?
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Yeah but the big difference is you have to wait 2 an a half minutes with pig for the strat to work...Jago said:It's cool doing this when there is almost no timer left for the mend bar. Just wait a bit, up you go. Deck move.
But yeah, it's not an exploit. You can also do that strat with PIG to let the trap trigger.
It won't get fixed.
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@powerbats said:
AD is very situational and requires you not to be dead or on the hook when the gens pop. Balanced Landing is great if you're on say Gideons Haddonfield etc but on Autohaven you're screwed.Sorry, AD?
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Dribbling isnt a counter. What do I do if they're too far to dribble? Oh thats right nothing. Something which is so situational is not a true counter. Also they can counter that "counter" with flashlights, instaheals or body blocking. They have enough time to set up for it too.thesuicidefox said:@The_Crusader said:
Does it matter if theres no counter play? Theres none to DS and no dribbling doesn't count because its very situational and survivors will often run to areas with no hooks to trigger it.I'm tired of these double standards on the survivor side.
1) There is counter play to DS. Dribbling is counter play, why you dismiss it is beyond me. Enduring also makes DS far less impactful, and therefore can be considered counter play. Slugging is also an option. Just because someone has DS doesn't mean there is absolutely no way to play around it. Sometimes counter play is situation dependent. There is 0 counter play to Myers tapping tier 3 while directly behind you. But when it's not that situation there is counter play.
2) Counter play matters because if you can't counter it then it just becomes either an overpowered or trolly tactic. If you can counter play it then it's not an exploit.
3) Stop putting words into people's mouths. Stop assuming because someone disagrees with you it automatically makes there points survivor/killer sided whatever the case may be. And stop with the "well the OTHER side can do this this and this" as if that justifies something. That's called a tu quoque ("you too") fallacy.
Enduring helps but DS can still guarentee a free escape even with it, and they can still get a free escape, make it to a pallet and loop more.
Yes you're right counter play matters, hence why DS needs to go. Thanks for agreeing.0 -
@thesuicidefox said:
@powerbats said:
AD is very situational and requires you not to be dead or on the hook when the gens pop. Balanced Landing is great if you're on say Gideons Haddonfield etc but on Autohaven you're screwed.Sorry, AD?
Adrenaline sorry.
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@The_Crusader said:
Dribbling isnt a counter. What do I do if they're too far to dribble? Oh thats right nothing. Something which is so situational is not a true counter. Also they can counter that "counter" with flashlights, instaheals or body blocking. They have enough time to set up for it too.
Again I already pointed this out you can slug them and it's absolutely no different from when a survivor runs to the exact same place so that when you down them you can't make it to a hook.
Now here we go with yet more excuses every group is going to be able to do that, every group is a 4 man swf swat team. Its not like you can't see them coming with a flashlight. The amount of insta heals in the average lobby is quite small.
If they bodyblock you you smack them and guess what you get free hits and then there's multiple injured survivors. Which is amazingly no different than if they body block you, use flashlights or instaheals and the person doesn't have DS.
Enduring helps but DS can still guarentee a free escape even with it, and they can still get a free escape, make it to a pallet and loop more.
Yes because there's always a pallet and loop spot every time available yet didn't you just say they go to an area where there's no hooks? If that's the case then congratulations they just ran to an area with hooks and you down them again.
Its also not like you haven't probably destroyed said pallets already that the non obsessions have already used and you obviously chase them properly to steer them away from said pallet and looping spots.
Yes you're right counter play matters, hence why DS needs to go. Thanks for agreeing.
Wrong yet again since DS doesn't need to go and you know it, it does however need to be adjusted. You have options use them instead of making up new excuses each time someone gives you examples.
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@The_Crusader said:
Dribbling isnt a counter. What do I do if they're too far to dribble? Oh thats right nothing. Something which is so situational is not a true counter. Also they can counter that "counter" with flashlights, instaheals or body blocking. They have enough time to set up for it too.Enduring helps but DS can still guarentee a free escape even with it, and they can still get a free escape, make it to a pallet and loop more.
Yes you're right counter play matters, hence why DS needs to go. Thanks for agreeing.
LOL "this thing that counters this other thing... yea not a counter". Dribbling does indeed counter DS. I dribble DS users all the time to counter DS GASP. If there's no hooks nearby I slug them, also a counter because now someone has to come save them and waste time.
You also seem to think that counter play means "to defeat" when it can also mean "to mitigate". Something doesn't have to be completely countered for there to be counter play. Reducing the effectiveness of something is counter play too. For example, you can use TINH to counter Ruin. It doesn't outright remove the effect, but it does make it easier to hit great skill checks an minimize it's impact on the game.
And I told you to stop putting words into people's mouths. I said DS has counter play. Therefore I don't agree with you.
@powerbats said:
@thesuicidefox said:
@powerbats said:
AD is very situational and requires you not to be dead or on the hook when the gens pop. Balanced Landing is great if you're on say Gideons Haddonfield etc but on Autohaven you're screwed.Sorry, AD?
Adrenaline sorry.
Ok, just really quick want to point out that if you are hooked when the last gen pops and you get saved, Adren procs the moment you are saved. I use Adren often and know this for a fact, it's a major reason why it's such a powerful perk. The only time it doesn't proc is if you have Deep Wounds, since it can't heal that.
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Who mentioned adrenaline? And it still helps on the hook.powerbats said:@The_Crusader said:
Does it matter if theres no counter play? Theres none to DS and no dribbling doesn't count because its very situational and survivors will often run to areas with no hooks to trigger it.I'm tired of these double standards on the survivor side.
Dribbling is a soft counter, slugging them, Enduring is a soft counter, Iron Grasp, UP etc are all soft counters. The only double standard here is you using the argument that you like while ignoring anything that counters it.
AD is very situational and requires you not to be dead or on the hook when the gens pop. Balanced Landing is great if you're on say Gideons Haddonfield etc but on Autohaven you're screwed.
So the survivor runs to an area without hooks to trigger it, how is that any different from not having DS in order to get downed out of range of any hooks?
Soft counters....well taking iron will is a soft counter to legion. Or lightweight.
Iron grasp? Lmfao now you're reaching.
Theres no actual counter so I don't know why you're getting sweaty trying to throw out all these suggestions which are either situational, or dont counter it but just lessen the sting of it.
And a survivor has to run far away from all hooks to wiggle free. If you have DS then its only 35% max, or you dont even have to wiggle at all if you're the obsession.0 -
Why dont you get off your high horse, stop coming into every thread talking down to people and straight up telling them they're "wrong"? It comes across as obnoxious.powerbats said:@The_Crusader said:
Dribbling isnt a counter. What do I do if they're too far to dribble? Oh thats right nothing. Something which is so situational is not a true counter. Also they can counter that "counter" with flashlights, instaheals or body blocking. They have enough time to set up for it too.
Again I already pointed this out you can slug them and it's absolutely no different from when a survivor runs to the exact same place so that when you down them you can't make it to a hook.
Now here we go with yet more excuses every group is going to be able to do that, every group is a 4 man swf swat team. Its not like you can't see them coming with a flashlight. The amount of insta heals in the average lobby is quite small.
If they bodyblock you you smack them and guess what you get free hits and then there's multiple injured survivors. Which is amazingly no different than if they body block you, use flashlights or instaheals and the person doesn't have DS.
Enduring helps but DS can still guarentee a free escape even with it, and they can still get a free escape, make it to a pallet and loop more.
Yes because there's always a pallet and loop spot every time available yet didn't you just say they go to an area where there's no hooks? If that's the case then congratulations they just ran to an area with hooks and you down them again.
Its also not like you haven't probably destroyed said pallets already that the non obsessions have already used and you obviously chase them properly to steer them away from said pallet and looping spots.
Yes you're right counter play matters, hence why DS needs to go. Thanks for agreeing.
Wrong yet again since DS doesn't need to go and you know it, it does however need to be adjusted. You have options use them instead of making up new excuses each time someone gives you examples.
All this shilling, what is it you're after?2 -
Ok how about this...
Just run fron Legion. It's a soft counter. Delays him catching you by a few seconds. Just as enduring counters DS by shaving a few seconds off the stun.
Oh wait let me guess that isn't good enough?
Oh and bring adrenaline. It mends deep wounds. Its a counter.
Oh whats that? Too situational?0 -
@The_Crusader said:
Who mentioned adrenaline? And it still helps on the hook.
Soft counters....well taking iron will is a soft counter to legion. Or lightweight.
Iron grasp? Lmfao now you're reaching.
Theres no actual counter so I don't know why you're getting sweaty trying to throw out all these suggestions which are either situational, or dont counter it but just lessen the sting of it.
And a survivor has to run far away from all hooks to wiggle free. If you have DS then its only 35% max, or you dont even have to wiggle at all if you're the obsession.
As @thesuicidefox mentioned there's counters and just because you don't want to admit it or you can't use them properly doesn't mean they don't exist.
They take medkits you bring Sloppy Butcher TO COUNTER THEM, 4 Flashlights you take Lightborn to counter them, slower killer Iron Grasp and or Agitation. There's counters to everything no matter how much you try and deflect or twist what people say your narrative of no counters is wrong.
Counter:
Transitive Verb:** Offset**, Nullify
Adverb: to or toward a different or opposite direction, result, or effect
Transitive Verb/Intransitive Verb
If you do something to counter a particular action or process, you do something which has an opposite effect to it or makes it less effective.
Well that sure looks like DS has counters.
Oh and I still hate English classes.
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Medkits arent an issue for me, and who said flashllights never had counters? I've only been talking about DS. Don't put words into my mouth by bringing in other things since you complained I did it to you.powerbats said:@The_Crusader said:
Who mentioned adrenaline? And it still helps on the hook.
Soft counters....well taking iron will is a soft counter to legion. Or lightweight.
Iron grasp? Lmfao now you're reaching.
Theres no actual counter so I don't know why you're getting sweaty trying to throw out all these suggestions which are either situational, or dont counter it but just lessen the sting of it.
And a survivor has to run far away from all hooks to wiggle free. If you have DS then its only 35% max, or you dont even have to wiggle at all if you're the obsession.
As @thesuicidefox mentioned there's counters and just because you don't want to admit it or you can't use them properly doesn't mean they don't exist.
They take medkits you bring Sloppy Butcher TO COUNTER THEM, 4 Flashlights you take Lightborn to counter them, slower killer Iron Grasp and or Agitation. There's counters to everything no matter how much you try and deflect or twist what people say your narrative of no counters is wrong.
Counter:
Transitive Verb:** Offset**, Nullify
Adverb: to or toward a different or opposite direction, result, or effect
Transitive Verb/Intransitive Verb
If you do something to counter a particular action or process, you do something which has an opposite effect to it or makes it less effective.
Well that sure looks like DS has counters.
Oh and I still hate English classes.
As for Legion. Bring iron will or lightweight to make it harder for Legion to track you. Bring adrenaline or an instaheal to mend deep wounds. Bring DS for the free escape.
There we go. Well that sure looks like Legions moonwalking has counters.
GG1 -
Survivors screamed "adapt ;DDDDDDDDD" when we said the Legion is #########. They knew it, and were just cocky as always telling us to git gut.
We adapted.
They screech again.
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@Mc_Harty said:
@Dreamnomad said:
No matter how many times you repeat yourself, won't make it true. Perhaps our problem is that we define the word exploit differently. To me, when you are talking about an exploit in a video game, you are referring to a cheat. You are doing something wrong. Unintended and wrong are two different things.exploit
verb
verb: exploit; 3rd person present: exploits; past tense: exploited; past participle: exploited; gerund or present participle: exploiting
- make full use of and derive benefit from (a resource).
- make use of (a situation) in a way considered unfair or underhand.
My definitions are fine.
We can all agree that they didn't intend for Legion to moonwalk stalk survivors. That, however, doesn't mean that it is wrong to do so. It is well within the mechanics of the game. No 3rd party software is involved. It isn't against the rules. Therefore it isn't an exploit.
By that logic, Infinites weren't an exploit as well. Just please stop defending broken mechanics. It's not going to go well for you.
Lol, thanks for the warning, but I'll take my chances. Alright, so let's use your definition of exploit. "1. make full use of and derive benefit from (a resource)." Clearly we aren't talking about abusing mother nature such as strip mining so we can eliminate this definition. That leaves "2. make use of (a situation) in a way considered unfair or underhand." The key to this definition is the words "unfair or underhand". Absolutely nothing about Legion stalking a survivor bleeding out from deep wounds is either unfair or underhanded.
The player isn't using 3rd party software to gain an advantage. The player isn't abusing a glitch or bug. There are no rules being broken. It is that simple really. Anything else a player does in game isn't unfair or underhanded. People don't like camping, but it isn't an exploit. People don't like to be tunneled, but again it isn't an exploit. People don't like to be looped or 360'd or bodyblocked, again none of which is an exploit with the exception of bodyblocking an extended period of time which is against the rules as it is taking the game hostage.
Doing things that other people don't like is pretty much exactly what this game is about. BTW, infinite windows are not an exploit either. Windows were put in the game for survivors to jump through. A survivor jumping through a window is not using 3rd party software, is not a bug or glitch, and is not against the game rules. Therefore it is fair and not underhanded as it is well within the games design.
Now when the game developers realize that players are doing things they didn't really intend they have a choice. Either accept it or change the game. But until the game is changed, it isn't an exploit. They obviously didn't like infinite windows so they changed the game. But every player who used infinite windows up until the patch that changed them wasn't exploiting the game or cheating in anyway. Another example is 360's which the game devs didn't really intend when making the game, but guess what? They decided that they didn't have anything against that form of play and didn't change it.
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If all killers get changed to TR, just think of a max TR Doctor or scratched mirror Myers with MaASomeissues said:@AlexAnarchy said:
changing too TR would be beyond stupid as survivors will then abuse the Legions TR.
it would make Legion trash but it would fix the issue with other killers, survivors can cause the killer to lose bloodlust despite the killer is right behind them, its dumb as f
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@The_Crusader said:
Medkits arent an issue for me, and who said flashllights never had counters? I've only been talking about DS. Don't put words into my mouth by bringing in other things since you complained I did it to you.
I never said you complained about those but nice Straw Man's there and the only one putting things into peoples mouths per se has been you when you said someone agreed with you when in fact they hadn't.
I used those examples of things that have counters and even gave you several definitions of counters and how they're used. @thesuicidefox also gave you counters which you decided to ignore because it proved you wrong.
As for Legion. Bring iron will or lightweight to make it harder for Legion to track you. Bring adrenaline or an instaheal to mend deep wounds. Bring DS for the free escape.
To counter Claudette's play Wraith and then use either All Seeing Eye or bring Sloppy Butcher to make it harder for her to stealth you. Bring a Mori to kill her off or just slug her and let her bleed out.
Now to completely counter your argument, since the survivors don't know who the killer is going to be they can't bring IW to counter Legion or Lightweight since it might be a Nurse. Thus your legion counter is a fallacy since it's not guaranteed to be a Legion.
You can slug the person if you feel they have AD, they bring a medkit you bring Franklins and smack it out of their hand. Bring a mori for the FREE kill o and guess what if they use that Insta heal it's gone and then you can simply down them with ease.
There we go. Well that sure looks like Legions moonwalking has counters.
GG
There we go that sure looks like Legion's Moonwalking has no counters since you don't know Legion is going to be your killer.
Now that's GG since unless the killer messages you or you're using a hack that lets you know who the killer has chosen in the lobby you have no way of knowing it's a Legion.
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