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Heal time changes Hook time changes?
If we want all forms of heals to take 50% longer, then should we also make hooks take 50% longer per stage? This would only nerf camping abuses. To be fair Reassurance and Camaraderie would also need a 50% increase in duration as well. It only makes sense right?
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No. Making all healing speeds longer, is the compensation for all the gen regression slowdown being shorter.
The killer perk nerfs are absolutely huge, as in they nerfed those perks into the ground. This is a fair trade, as BHVR is basically destroying an entire genre of game slowdown.
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There is still more than enough slowdown to play normally, with being mentally-afk kicking the 3 gens over and over until the survivors kill themselves rather than submit to the torture. Even if you wanted to run 4 Slowdown you can still easily run No Way Out, Corrupt Intervention, Deadlock, and Jolt/Pop.
The abusive part is being fixed. They didn't nerf Eruption's 10% or Jolt's 8% per gen, they didn't nerf the basekit regression rate, they didn't nerf the 2.5% max progress regression on kick, they didn't nerf any of the Killer's basekit in nerfing the problem perks. They are nerfing the basekit of Survivor, even the non-problem parts, so the least they could do is nerf the basekit problem part of Killer to keep things in line.
Edit: Also the important part is healing is not being nerfed to make up for the problem perks being nerfed. Nowhere in the dev update do they even pretend that is the reason. The regression perks being nerfed mainly mention their overuse being the reason for being brought down. The only healing aspect you can fairly claim is CoH being nerfed alongside them, not healing in and of itself.
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The official reason for the healing speed nerfs is so injuries can feel like they matter. But it feels like a whole bunch of people don’t care at all about this official reason, because they want to completely ruin it by demanding for the altruistic healing speed nerf to be reverted.
We can’t do both. We either have injuries that feel like they matter, or we cater to survivors and ruin the entire meta shift.
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We can do both. Injuries matter when the time investment is enough to trick people into healing, but not enough to be better than doing gens. Currently the flaw with healing is selfish healing is a strictly better time investment. Altruistic healing is the Goldilocks just right. The proposed changes make healing not worth the effort UNLESS self-healing. This isn't catering to survivors, this is catering to game health. This is not making a disastrous change 'because'.
Every time I hear a boon as killer I sigh the same resigned sigh since the game is going to take a lot longer than it should. That is the exact same sigh as when I play surv and the killer kicks the same gen for the 20th time with OC/CoB. The perks are the problem here, not the basekit mechanic. If they want to adjust the basekit mechanic of healing to take 50% longer, then it should also take 50% longer to die on hook.
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Adding 30 seconds seems like too much, but 15 seconds could be okay.
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Healing will still be worth it even if the full altruistic healing speed nerf happens. Playing injured will be way more risky after the dead hard nerf.
And we do need the full altruistic healing nerf in order for injuries to feel like they matter. Remember that the goal isn’t to evaluate which survivor mechanics are problematic. The goal is to make injuries feel like they matter. The current flaw in this game is that injuries don’t feel like they matter. They might matter to you, because you are totally against this survivor nerf, but to many other people they don’t feel like they matter.
BHVR wants the healing speed nerf to effect every hit, so that injuries can feel like they matter. This is the goal. It’s fine, and should be tried out for a few months.
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Injuries currently feel like they matter in games where they only have Medkits and I bring Franklins, and games where I never hear the accursed boon thunder sound. Both problem children are being addressed, and near everyone is fine with the problems being fixed. I have never heard anyone go 'gosharoonie, I just hit them and they got healed up AND the gens got completed, I guess my attacks do nothing' (edit: in matches without the above problems mentioned). It usually is a great standstill where both sides feel like they are making progress, while keeping everyone invested in the game, unlike the current state of the game. Many people see a 3-gen being kicked and decide to go next, and I can't blame them.
Would you be for a Killer nerf setting the base movement speed to 4.3, 4.2 ranged? I certainly wouldn't because I can see how bad that would destroy the game's ecosystem. Same thing here with the universal heal speeds being changed. At the very least something else like the hook timers should correspondingly change if a needless change must be made.
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Lol, Eruption, Jolt, basekit regression, and base 2.5 damage aren’t that good at all. And Corrupt, Deadlock, NWO don’t allow playing for hooks like PR, COB, and OC did. It’s crazy, everyone doesn’t want slower healing, but also don’t want the regression perks to remain either. It’s like they just want us to be left with crumbs as perks.
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Honestly make it 300 seconds or 600 seconds, It's not something many care.
If we want "balance" we could have same 60 seconds timer for first stage and 240 or so seconds for second, so camping is still viable strat but can not kill them straight.
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I personally like SH:PR in its current iteration (not the proposed), but I can see how camping and recycling the hook can be a problem. I also would prefer Pop (max, not current) and ruin (back to 200%) to revert half of their nerfs, alongside DS (5s still). I also think they should revert the nerfs to Thana, and the shadow nerf to Bamboozle, which prevents it from speeding up modified vaults like Legion and Wesker. If I were in charge of the SH:PR change, I would either have PR proc 2x max per individual hook, or have a hook once used as a Scourge, makes a different hook (that never has been a Scourge hook) become a Scourge hook.
Even then, regression is the Dead Hard of Killer perks. It is a second chance source from a perk. Killer mains (as opposed to both sides enjoyers) hate DH so much, but can't see they are doing the same thing (both sides enjoyers understand and don't care lol). I don't like DH as Survivor due to lag, and don't mind it as Killer because I hate Sprint Burst much more. If you are a Killer main you don't see failed DHs, or moments where you are like 'I friggin pressed E, what the heck stupid laggy/buggy game'. Honestly the only fair version of DH I can come up with only provides Endurance against Special Attacks. That way M1 killers aren't nerfed, and the problem killers are still counterable.
Also COB/OC/Eruption never even required hooks, so they were always unearned, and not centered around playing for hooks (less so for Eruption, but still). Pop and SH:PR both required skill and advancing the win condition, and are healthy for the game. Anyone relying on gameplay without skill just wanted to play a single player game on story-mode difficulty. I hold that position for OC+COB/Blight/Nurse/Clock callout SWFs/4 Syringe and or BNPs, and probably more that I can't think of right now.
The issue you are mentioning is people don't want slower ALTRUISTIC healing, but near everyone understands selfish healing is absurd and should be fixed. Altruistic healing makes sense since it prevents half the Survivors from doing gens. That in and of itself is 50% slowdown. Having someone on hook is 25% slowdown, and chasing someone brings that up to another 25% for 50% total slowdown. If you are chasing someone with someone on hook and the other 2 need to heal up, you have 100% slowdown. You can reach 100% slowdown with 0 perks, just skill. If you can end that chase quick enough then the survivors are in a death spiral, and you can win without them completing a single gen.
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I don't know why people are repeating this lie of 'Healing Nerfs is paired with Regression Nerfs' ad nauseam, because it was never mentioned in the dev update as a reason. Also there is plenty of great slowdown and regression options still available. It's only the boring and skillless perks that are being nerfed, and not even their unique aspects (skill check for OC, and intel for COB). Even using that paired nerf logic it fails to understand the timers of everything else in the game. Hence why hooks would need a 50% increase in time, or at the very least 16 more seconds, to equal the added time difference of 2 people healing each other up before going for the save.
Camping isn't uncounterable, but you vastly underestimate the stupidity of soloq. I had a Ghostie Shroud camping me on Blood Lodge just out of reveal range from the hook, and a Feng was in between he and I. To be clear, she was closer to me than Ghostie was, and Ghostie didn't know she was there. The rest of the team was across the map doing gens, and she let me die from a full 60s 2nd stage because she was too scared he might show up, even though she was looking right at him as far as I could tell.
The other important factor of camping is you can't Reassurance yourself. Heck, even then when you get a good Reassurance against a camper, your soloq teammate often decides to Kobe, or another teammate figures they'll get the save, even if its clearly farming them. Do you propose everyone bring half their perk slots (Reassurance and Camaraderie) on the chance someone gets camped? The more important factor, is you shouldn't require a perk to patch a design flaw. Most people throw games trying to rescue against a facecamping Bubba, because the point of a multiplayer game is interaction. When the best action (pump gens against a facecamper) is the least fun action, the design is flawed.
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Yeah but BASE speed regression isn't being nerfed, only the perks
It would be different if only healing perks were being nerfed
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The majority of people are against slower altruistic healing, because the majority of the people don't want survivors to get nerfed, and this seems like the easiest thing to latch onto. This has nothing to do with what is fair and balanced. People are just trying to get a nerf reverted due to popular opinion.
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You being blinded by 'main-brain' is the only thing I can think that is preventing you from recognizing it is a problem. You haven't provided any arguments beyond 'I don't like it', so why is your opinion more valid than others? If it is merely opinion against opinion then surely math, rock solid inarguable facts would sway you, but they don't. You apparently think everyone is a Survivor main, only arguing to protect their toys. Both Otzdarva and OhTofu, prominent Killer mains can recognize it would be a grave mistake, so I'm confused what is preventing you from seeing that as well. The nerf is proposed, not locked in stone. Most people do think it is fair and balanced to not destroy the game, so what is tricking you into thinking otherwise? Most people are against kicking puppies, is that because they are dog lovers and hate cats? I would argue most people can understand bad things when they are told about them.
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I've already mentioned multiple times that all healing needs to be nerfed so that injuries can feel like they matter. I've played enough games, that were 100% altruistic healing, to know that injuries won't matter unless altruistic healing speed gets a large nerf.
And the biggest reason is because this is what BHVR wants to do to shift the meta, so that it encourages killers to go on chases. Without the full healing speed nerfs, the meta won't shift, and killers will be encouraged to continue to just camp and tunnel, because it just won't be worth it to chase a survivor when you could be defending an area instead.
It doesn't matter how much math you throw at us, unless killers feel like injuries and chases matter, then you're telling killers they should be encouraged to camp and tunnel, because it's a much higher value strategy.
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"My side has been nerfed, I demand the other side be nerfed as well!"
"But we nerfed the other side too."
"I'm sorry I don't think I heard you, you should just do what I say instead."
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I also mentioned multiple times that injuries matter plenty when you know how to use them, and you have a method to deal with self-healing. I've played more than enough Clown games that utilize that combination of pressure of injury, hook, and interception to win.
I would argue that universal heal speed nerfs will encourage even more camping and tunneling. If people get injured and need to heal, scummy Killers will be all the more empowered to camp as they will know Survs can't heal and reach the hook in time for a trade/rescue. Exact same problem with tunneling if basekit BT is going to remain at 10s. I can be a Scratched Mirror Myers on the opposite side of most maps, and I'll know I can still reach the hook before they finish the heal.
All I can do is help people play the game. Every Ghostface playing 'Chaseface' that I come across loses to me playing Survivor, so I try to push them in the right direction of using M2. You wouldn't play Huntress without hatchets, but all too many people think chasing as Ghostface is the path to victory.
If people think the injuries they inflict don't matter, but in my matches they do matter, all I can think is I know something they don't. The problem is I don't know what I don't know, or more accurately, what they don't know. Another problem is learning takes effort, and plenty of people are too lazy or otherwise unwilling/unable to learn different strategies and methods to improve. Many people fall back on the devil they know, and resort to camping and tunneling since they are disproportionately rewarded for the effort and skill involved. One route is to play soloq surv and remember the sting of how unfun that match was when the killer camped or tunneled. Strive to do better, to not inflict that same torment on others, y'know have sympathy. The best help I can give people though is to recommend they record their matches, delete the wins, and think of what they could have done differently to win in the losses. Do I break the pallet/force the drop on this side or the other? Do I mindgame this part of the loop or fake the mindgame while holding W? That is the long version of 'git gud', but people don't take kindly to hearing it phrased the short way.
I do think camping and tunneling are problems of design, because the risk is low, and the reward is high. We can either increase the risk, or decrease the reward. I think the reward of a hook state is appropriate for tunneling, but the risk should be far higher. I would have anti-tunnel endurance sources all stack, along with DS being reverted to 5s. That way the risk is high, as you never know which endurance proc is the last, and the reward is high to match. For camping, longer hook timers is the best I can come up with. If the timer is extended then as Killer you can guarantee 1 kill, but nothing beyond that for what essentially amounts to not playing the game. The threat of the remaining survs completing gens while you are camping needs to have bite, but I don't think reducing gen times is the answer either. That leaves the best solution to be hook times. Arguably there could be a hybrid hook timer, where if a facecamp is detected then gens progress at triple speed, but that requires a lot more than a simple number tweak. If we want to shift the meta towards chases, and away from camping and tunneling this would more than equitably accomplish those goals. Heck, if these happened alongside the healing nerfs then it would probably be fine, as it would ensure killers won't resort to camping and tunneling. Hence the thread.
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It doesn't matter if you personally think injuries matter. It's clear that many killers don't think injuries matter, which is why the 3 gen situations are out of control, and is why BHVR literally made a dev update telling us they want injuries to feel like they matter.
When killers choose to stick to a 3 gen, and refuse to chase survivors, it's because they don't think chases are worth it, and they don't think injuries matter enough to leave their 3 gen. This is the problem the game is having, and we should be giving killers positive reinforcement to go on chases.
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-"There is still more than enough slowdown to play normally,"
What makes you say that? Base regression is 1/4th of one survivor. The two kicks perks are getting a 70-75% nerf. Pain res can be used up to 4 times per game. Nobody is going to use any of those perks.
By itself Jolt does nothing. It worked "fine" when you could combine it with another perk like Pain res to be getting something like -40% off a generator.
-"Making all healing speeds longer, is the compensation for all the gen regression slowdown being shorter."
Unlike the OP you understand what is going on here. Healing will be the new "secondary objective". You play the game hurt and win quickly or you heal and the game lasts a long time.
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I think Ardetha's last video about old bully squads indirectly explained it so well: Survivors have being in a power trip for so long that now even a balancing patch affecting both sides and making the game fair is seen as "killer sided" and a nerf to only survivors. And of course, nerfing survivors is going against their rightful fun, so that is a no-no.
That's why so many people is crying about the healing and want it reverted even before they put the patch in the PTB, but have no problem with the nerfs done to the killer side and want them to stay even if it was to compensate the other changes and all those changes are to solve many problems with the game.
They don't want to see all the changes as a whole and understand why BHVR have done those things because they simply don't care, they want the game to guarantee "their fun" at cost of anything else, including balance, and that's about it.
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These healing nerfs will affect camping more than the regression perks, as they don't really see use when camping. Not to mention Deadlock is staying the same.
Camping 100% needs to be nerfed if BHVR does not want to lose a bunch of survivor players. I hope they do something about it, I don't want to end up with long killer queue times again.
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I have seen killer mains do the same thing. Except they cry about the slowdown nerfs and do not consider the healing nerfs at all. People just in general aren't seeing the big picture with this update quite yet.
I hope telling yourself that will make you feel better about the long queue times if camping doesn't get touched at all.
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Honestly making everything take longer should be the answer but at this point I'd rather we go back to pre 6.1.0 the game does not feel fun to play with everything taking so long to do. We could have had so many better things like baseline corrupt or the early game changes, instead we got more stackable slowdown paired with gens that take forever and base chase changes that should have been added gradually rather than all at once with no tweaks since.
the game was fine before 6.1.0 the meta was just stale and now they are just making the base game insufferable.
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I think we should wait and see how it plays in the ptb. I think the direction BHVR is trying to go is very good. Making chases at base more rewarding by increasing healing time.
Let's not forget that the three main regression perks are all getting hit hard, which means you will have to generally spend less time on gens now. Healing will take longer yes, but in order for the killer to get use of that, you will be having more interaction with the killer, because he wants to injure survivors as often as possible. 3 genning is also being nerfed clearly, which is also a good thing.
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Not touching camping would make the queues longer, as this game has being dead for years now if you ask some kind of people around here. This changes won't affect camping for good or bad, camping would be as viable as survivors let it to be, as has always being. In fact, and again, it would make camping less appealing as now the only way to make pressure on survivors is by hurting them.
And nobody is saying that the entitlement is exclusive of the survivor's side, but I think the number of post dedicated to complain about just the healing speak for itself.
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I agree that hook timers need looking at - at the very least. Personally, I rhink hook times need to be extended - by about 8-15 seconds per stage. Because as is, tunneling/camping is getting a massive buff --- and last time I checked even BHVR said, while a 'legal' strategy it's not the kind of gameplay they want to encourage. Someone being on hook for longer doesn't make it harder for a killer to chase someone else down or makes gens go faster. It just makes it harder to camp someone to second stage or to death on first hook. And that should be way harder than it currently is already.
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i agree to this - killer main
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'Killers that lack skill' would be a fair claim to make, not killers as a whole. When they know they are engaging in a pseudo-hostage game by intending to kick 3-gens for an hour through their build and actions, they never had any faith in their ability to play. 3-gens are out of control because the perks give unearned regression, not because 'they don't think injuries matter'. When regression was tied to hooks, they have to play the game and win or lose from skill. Since regression is tied to kicking gens with bad perk design, we have this abomination of a state of the game that we have right now.
No Way Out, Corrupt Intervention, Eruption for regression, and Deadlock all aren't having their numbers dropped. That is a fully functional full slowdown build. Jolt is for the non-oppressive Killers, and it works more than adequately. You also didn't say anything in regards to the topic, should hooks also take proportionately longer? If 2 people are injured and one gets hooked, it current leaves you 28s after they both heal each other to get the hook, but after the proposed change that will drop to 12s. So should we give 16s per hook stage, or 50% longer at 30s, for the same as percentage as injuries?
Hard agree here. 6.1.0 nerfed earned regression needlessly while buffing unearned regression, and buffed tunneling through the DS nerf needlessly. I think the best state of the game for everyone was on Mikaela's release while CoH was killswitched. To be fair though, I am fine with many of the basekit killer buffs they put in 6.1.0, since it shortened the theoretical 20s hold W to a theoretical 18s. It also mostly buffed the killers who need it. I think the Surv speed boost on hit and kick speed shouldn't have changed though, just the basic attack cooldown further from 2.7s to maybe 2.5s. That way Nurse and Blight don't get the buff benefits when hitting with their power, but the Doctor and Trapper get something.
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It would be more accurate to say the problem perks on both sides are being addressed (CoH+DH/OC+CoB), and an area that is innocent to all this is being caught in the crossfire.
It is also being made with 0 thought to the rest of the timers in the game. I thought when gens were getting 10s added to them, hooks would get 5s added to them, to make sure they didn't incidentally buff facecamp Bubba. Sadly those changes didn't come alongside them, and facecamping was buffed. Now all forms of camping will be buffed, as the counter before was to send 2 people for a 55-59s rescue while the last person works on gens. Now there isn't enough time to heal up and reach the hook again in time for a single stage trade. That is a problem, making a massive change without thinking even the basic scenarios through.
The gen and hook timers not being adjusted together I could excuse, as facecamp Bubba/(any other killer from the start) is an edge case scenario. Camping or even Tunneling outright is not an edge case scenario, as both are becoming all the more the norm, and those low risk strats are getting more and more rewarding with every patch. This seems like there was very little to no thought put into a change that will have massive ripples.
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Or we could see the actual effects of the healing changes instead of asking for other buffs as "compensation". If it turns out healing was overnerfed, then you can either tone back the nerf or buff other areas of the game. Nerfs don't need to be followed by compensation buffs.
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Why do you think hook timer changes would be a buff? Altering hook timers would only hurt campers, and even further incentivize chases, as you can't hover at hook permanently to guarantee a kill. It reaches all the same desired goals as healing changes.
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Buffing hook timers means hooks provide less pressure overall. Even if the killer isn't camping, hooks on the opposite side of the map become less impactful since survivors have more time to get there. Gens can pop before getting the unhook, because there's less rush to do so before the next hook state.
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The person on hook still can't do anything, and if the Survivors intentionally leave them on hook, they run the risk of 2 people on hook in a death spiraling match loss. So it would only prevent camping from the onset being valuable, not juicing the last seconds from greeding gensb4frens. Especially since with the healing timers they are forced to take longer healing.
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Most chases should be lasting longer than a single hook state. If your team is going down in 30 seconds or less, that's a skill issue. Increasing the hook timer will decrease hook pressure overall and this will matter at skill levels where people don't just go down when they get spotted by the killer.
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People don't seem to be getting this, so allow me to explain yet again.
The game has devolved to a state where killers reliably pick the 3 gens that are closest to each other and are the easiest to defend and the survivors go to a place the killer would never go to place down their own little safe space. This results in boring games of tag where the first side to lose is whichever side doesn't want to deal with it anymore or the people end the game via a tie the game forces on them. People have been (rightfully) complaining about this for months and it's exacerbated with the introduction of Knight and Skull Merchant who are two killers that happens to be able to do this strategy well (or in SM's introduction, was the ONLY thing they could do well).
In response, BHVR has nerfed the most popular perks that contribute to this boring playstyle and made nerfs to healing to encourage killers to actually abandon the post they set up. Survivors can no longer just go in, take a hit, and leave to their impenetrable castle of nothing in the middle of butt ######### nowhere because the perks that help them do this are worse, harder to use, or just not worth using anymore, at least not for that purpose. Similarly, Killers had perks that encouraged them to set up their trench early and made it difficult for anyone to get actual progress on the gens made significantly harder to use.
This will ultimately make the game more about chasing, pressuring, and eventually downing survivors, which I was under the impression was what everyone wanted but based on how everyone is in an uproar over their preferred side getting screwed (conveniently ignoring that both sides had game changing nerfs) it seems the "Dual Impenetrable Fortress" style of gameplay is what everyone really wanted. Which is weird because last I checked people hated Knight and Skull Merchant for encouraging this.
You're damned if ya do, and you're damned if ya don't.
As for the "innocent to all this is being caught in the crossfire" comment, let me point out that the "innocents" are thoroughly ######### either way. Survivors that want to play however they want can't get through the trenches killers dig into their 3 gens and Killers that want to "play nice" (weird terminology but whatever) or otherwise be interesting will be run in circles against survivor SWFs that Tea Bag at the exit gate every game because if I don't mock the Clown for being unable to catch me on The Game, who will? (Everyone, stereotypical survivor main. Everyone will do that.)
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Not necessarily. It depends on what the end goal is.
if healing is meant to be a trade off of safety, but hanging on the hook is meant to be swift and deadly then there’s no reason why there should be parity between the two.
it wont matter any in the long run because top tier teams never needed to heal they used adrenaline and loops to make chases more obnoxious.
occasionally you get the really good deadhard user in the current meta, but it probably will be less effective going forward. Deliverance+deadhard+decisive strike might be the new thing for those players that just have to have it, but they’re sacrificing so much now.
generators still get done. Jolt and sloppy butcher are impactful, but currently you can get just about the same effect just running forced penance and artificially inflicting it on players.
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-"I thought when gens were getting 10s added to them, hooks would get 5s added to them, to make sure they didn't incidentally buff facecamp Bubba"
Gens went +10 seconds because everyone gets +10 seconds of free borrowed time.
No Way Out, Corrupt Intervention, Eruption for regression, and Deadlock all aren't having their numbers dropped.
Corrupt will be "ok" for hit and run but it was pretty heavily nerfed in the 6.1 changes. Eruption? Oh no sorry... it's dead as DH. NWO is a "win more" perk. When it works best is when there are 1-2 people left when the gens get powered.... and that's not helpful. NWO is also not optimal because it goes against efficient play - tunneling.
Deadlock is "ok" but has never been in the shrine. It delays the inevitable and right now is worse than strong gen regression combos.
The base kit perk will be Sloppy Butcher to make sure nobody heals. Terminus might become meta to prevent adrenaline. That is a far more likely pick than NWO.
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The reason it devolved into this deplorable state, is because they needlessly nerfed earned regression (pop) because of popularity, while buffing unearned regression (CoB/OC), and nerfing Self-Care before daring to touch their baby CoH. CoH was a problem since it was released, and if anything it should have always been a hybrid of the altruism bonus only with aura reveal, and Self-Care at 35%. That way, people would know it is better to heal each other, instead of guitar soloing adjacent to one another like we see on live.
That last part you are talking about would be exacerbated by an altruism heal change, as only a SWF on comms could reasonably coordinate heals in such a meta. More SWFs will dominate killers, and soloq will suffer even more. Nothing about increasing hook times would threaten 'making injuries have value' for normal gameplay. It would only nerf early onset camping.
(Also if you are a Clown unable to get a hit on The Game, unironically skill dif git gud. You don't need to be a manifesto Clown to throw both types of bottles. Also non-manifesto Clowns know enough to bring Brutal Strength anyways. To be fair Clown is probably my 2nd most played killer behind Ghostie, so take that with a grain of salt. Any M1 killer like Legion can have fair complaints on that map, but not anyone with a slowing or damaging [to the point of downing] power.)
Anyone who has played both Killer and soloq surv for at least an hour knows the 10s borrowed time is a joke (outside of endgame), as all that tests is a killers capacity to count into the double digits. If you went down in the first place it was because the resources of the area were used up, making where you get hooked a deadzone, making any killer wanting to tunnel just needing to wait 10s before plopping the survivor back on hook. It also had the consequence of unintentionally nerfing the only anti-tunnel perk remaining, as if you can't hear them, you hit them immediately off-hook to proc the non-stacking endurance ASAP. If anti-tunnel endurance stacked, it wouldn't be a problem. Sadly people made meme videos with viewers to show off theoreticals of every endurance possible, but if that were to happen in a real match, the game would have been lost before even 3 generators popped since you lose endurance when touching gens anyways.
Also the basekit BT has nothing to do with empowered facecamping, as you don't rescue people and pump gens in that case. The issue was they added nothing to prevent the gen timers being abused by facecamping, as even Reassurance requires you to get within downed range of facecampers to use. "Oh you used Reassurance, well now I get to camp your corpse on the floor as well as the person on hook, and it takes you 30s to recover to 95% anyways, and your team is now only working on 2 gens at a time instead of 3." (Except on 2-story maps, which is a flaw with map design, not the actions and perks.)
Corrupt is a solid perk, and it already is much better used in the hands of hit and run on live ever since the drop early on downed change. The main value of corrupt though is forcing survivors to not hop on a gen on spawn, and that hasn't changed.
I think you don't know how to take advantage of NWO if you think it only provides value against 2 max living survivors. Also all balanced slowdown are win more perks, as pop was before, and SH:PR as well. (I am against the proposed method of nerfing SH:PR, because I understand camp hook recycling is the problem, and people not doing that playstyle are victims of the proposed nerf. A different method such as 2 uses per Scourge would give roughly the same average reward as current, without punishing non-campers. I primarily use SH:PR to hide my SH:Floods on most killers, and I might have to swap to SH:GoP instead.)
Deadlock not being in the shrine is an argument against P2W more than anything else. Even then, Call of Brine is equally locked behind a licensed killer, so that argument doesn't hold much weight. Also you say 'delays the inevitable' as though Killer isn't designed to win chases. If pallets weren't finite, entity blocked windows didn't exist, and bloodlust didn't exist, then you'd have a point. However since the survivor is designed to go down, it is only the problem of Fractured Cowshed/Borgo/Garden of Pain that needs to be fixed. Those maps are known outliers in terms of bad design. (Since I am a Ghostie main, Gideon's Meat Plant gives me easier wins than losses, as most people are too stupid to pay attention to stealth killers sneaking up on them. But I can understand if other M1 killers aren't a fan. Blights however can shred through the pallets so fast that it is copium for them to claim it is Survivor sided. Although, to be fair, it is so easy (for me) to win as Blight, I have to run meme perks/add-ons to give the vast majority of survivors a chance.)
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-"Anyone who has played both Killer and soloq surv for at least an hour knows the 10s borrowed time is a joke"
It's a free perk slot base kit. That's not a joke. Literally nobody runs BT anymore because the base kit version is so damn good. Before Base kit BT I immediately punched anyone I was able to right after an unhook - because why not?
-"I think you don't know how to take advantage of NWO if you think it only provides value against 2 max living survivors."
The door mechanic is a joke. If you don't have NWO then the gates are 99% completed ~20 seconds after the last generator pops. NWO doesn't really let you pressure most good survivors because things like DH, Adrenaline, Deliverance and Unbreakable still exist. Post patch 3/4 will still be a huge counter to NWO. That does not even consider things like insta heals or for the PePo.
-"all balanced slowdown are win more perks, as pop was before"
Pop was an extremely healthy perk for the game. In no way was it a "win more" perk except vs top tier players who are basically playing at comp level. On average with Pop I could kick gens 6-9 times and increase the survivor objective by 2-3 minutes. I didn't need to tunnel one person out every game - but now playing the same level of people I do. When you get to the point where you're playing comp level survivors like Hens and his crew - nothing short of Nurse/Blight with best perks and addons are going to win so it becomes a moot point.
The point is that Pop was the only gen defense I used for the most part and it was preventing the gen rush to hold my 3 gen setup. When I played Trapper I used to run Pop+Agi+ Pain Res and that absolutely obliterated generator progress.
Compare old Pop to something like Dying Light. By the time you get any meaningful slowdown with DL the game is basically over. That is the absolute best example of a win more perk in DBD. I can't even begin to count how many times Pop turned a 97% generator into a 77% generator and then that gen went all the way down to zero for one reason or another.
-"Also you say 'delays the inevitable' as though Killer isn't designed to win chases"
Pig, Trapper, and most of the low tier cast are not designed to win chases. They are relics of a by gone era.
Nurse and Blight are designed to win chases. Nurse and Blight are so far removed from all the other killers that people lose sight of just how bad everything else is that people actually play at high MMR. I have a friend who plays at comp level who told me he has not seen a trapper in 2 years.
Map design is a huge problem but so is killer design. Every killer needs to have Mobility, Lethality, Anti loop, 4v1 and some degree of detection. Those are the 5 killer traits and to be honest the first three outweigh everything else by a huge margin. Detection is meh when you do everything else well. And of course tunneling happens because otherwise you can't pressure 4 players because fewer than 5 killers have 4v1 worth talking about. Oh and by the way - 2 of those killers are Nurse and Blight who have 4v1 because they can start their second chase after hooking one player before a lot of the "weak" cast members even finish their first chase.
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"Also if you are a Clown unable to get a hit on The Game, unironically skill dif git gud."
Please keep shoving words into my mouth.
I said bragging that you beat Clown on The Game isn't something any sane person should be doing, not "Her der I'm so bad I can't hit tha person. DERP!".
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BT: The effects are a joke when even a slight effort towards tunneling is put forward. Also I run the perk BT frequently for the purpose of endgame saves.
NWO: Leveraging time pressure is the main facet of Killer skill. If a solid minute isn't anything important to you, then I don't think you understand that.
Pop/Comp: 99% of matches are not against comp level Survivors, the MMR isn't consistent enough and the quantity of players at that level is too small. You don't need to tunnel people out of the current iteration of the game either (Unless you are in a tournament using every advantage available). It is copium to believe otherwise. I call Pop a win more perk, because you only get regression if you are good enough to get a hook. That requires winning. Setting back gen timers puts your win con closer, and the Surv's further, making you win more.
Designed to win chases: OP killers are OP, newsflash: water is wet (or technically makes things wet, but you get the saying). As far as Pig, she is designed to win through slowdown. If she didn't win through slowdown, her raw kill numbers would be below 25% (the facecamp and hard tunnel someone from the onset number, which even then requires you to get a down in the first place). The Survs are forced to search 12 boxes basekit if you place the traps on their head. Even if they comp drop on Borgo, your best chance is to Mindgame/Bloodlust the short pallet loop (just because there are too many pallets altogether on that map). Trapper is designed to win chases by ending them short by surprise. If someone runs around a structure and steps into a trap, they are downed if you can get to them. Just because you haven't practiced how to utilize kits, doesn't mean they aren't designed to advance the objective of killing survivors before they escape.
Nurse and Blight bruteforce chase mechanics, to deny options. You can't hold W at this loop against Blight because he has another rush. Knowing how to use that lack of options is what makes killers strong. If you 99 3 survs as Ghostie, you deny them safety anywhere on the map, and if you sneak up on them you get a free down. If you let them take hits on the way to hook to drop their marks, they can negate that advantage in the long-run at the cost of the short run. I would say not every killer needs every mechanic, as then we will get 20 reskinned Weskers. Using the tools at your disposal properly is the key to victory. Bruteforcing lethality+mobility to me is the least engaging type of play, which is what Blight and Nurse sadly excel at.
Tunneling happens when you doubt your skill to win without using ez-mode shortcuts. When you win without tunneling, your MMR in theory will get you closer games to what you deserve. (Again MMR is massively flawed, but theoretically working around whatever matchmaking number is assigned.) When you win by facecamping as Bubba, you gain none of the skills, and can get looped for 5 gens from the start of the game. Whether you shortcut victories through camping or tunneling, you fail to build the muscle needed to beat survivors in chase, or in the macro of the game.
I didn't shove words in your mouth. I was implying that if that example theoretical Clown was never able to get a hit, they clearly only showed up for a daily or a tome. That however is also covered by the part where I mentioned I might have more Clown hours than most. Also if you have to address my joking parenthetical aside, as opposed to my main points, then I would have to assume you agreed with everything else I said above it. In that case I'm glad we agree!
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I love that saying "Don't insult me" also means "I agree with everything you said".
How convenient for you.
Also yes, you did. You implied I'm so bad at the game I can't get a single hit in. And you're insulting my intelligence by implying you didn't.
This still comes down in the end to "My side got nerfed and I'm ignoring the fact that the other side got nerfed too".
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I had no clue that was a real Clown gameplay, as I thought it was a theoretical exaggeration. I played along with the theoretical with my own theory. That had nothing to do with the main points I was making, thus I assumed you had nothing to refute in regards to them, therefore agreeing.
The "my side got nerfed" aspect doesn't even fit, as I play both sides (killer moreso because soloq teammates make me hate life). Even then, Problem perks for both sides are proposed to be fixed. Healing is a baseline mechanic, with no corresponding baseline mechanic (such as hook timers) to go in line with it to roughly even things out to keep the same desired circumstances unchanged (dual heal then go for rescue).
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"I play both sides" isn't a counter to "my preferred side is getting nerf and the other isn't".
Literally every nerf affects a perk that contributes to the "Dual Fortress" thing that's been going on in the game, with Dead Hard being the only real exception. This includes every killer perk which all help to make 3 genning easier.
Healing and hooks are not directly related. One thing being more difficult does not necessitate the other also being more difficult.
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That is technically correct, however my preferred side is Killer, so that's why it is incorrect. (I hate relying on other people. When my failure is mine alone I can learn from it, not because a Mikaela/Feng is afk in basement, or mentally afk irl.) I just have enough foresight to see sweatier matches because casuals will find the game unplayable. The game is its least enjoyable form when both sides sweat.
The perk nerfs are coinciding with one another, and that I have no problem with. (Other than the DH change incentivizing tunneling. Just give it endurance only against (non-instadown)* special attacks. That way M1 killers (and chainsaws)* are safe, and Nurse/Blight get impacted fairly. *I don't know if they can programmatically add in that clause, but if they can then they should.)
The timers of everything affect one another directly or indirectly. Slugging got an unintended buff if the heal changes goes through unaltered, because it uses double heal timer instead of its own timer. The facecamp hook trade timer is based around sending 2 healthy survivors to unhook and one to trade. This takes 32s (40s Mangled) live to dual heal, 48s (60s Mangled) proposed. The live version allows for the travel time needed for those hook trades, and the proposed doesn't. If the change is going through without thinking of everything, then there will be further incentive for facecamping. The point of nerfing 'Dual Fortress' as you put it, is to nerf non-interaction. Buffing facecamping further incentivizes non-interaction, which is the opposite of the intended goal. Altering hook timers alongside heal timers (and gen timers before) is the smart move. As killer I plan around people getting off of hooks, that helps me win. Keeping people on hooks doesn't help me. If I get to re-99 my Ghostie stalk on that person sooner, they will never truly be safe, which is how I win.
Edit: It is also important to note, I don't care to increase or decrease the raw number of hooks on maps, nor the wiggle timer, only the timer to advance a stage from sitting on hook.
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If the killer is going to camp no matter what, then having the hook timer just means they're going to stand on top of that person longer. The amount of time is already high enough that if everyone slams gens and leaves, the killer still only gets 1 kill. The only reason killer gets more in this situation is because everyone is too stupid to actually do that, and now the second person is on the hook, and now the other two can't possibly do the gens before the second person dies because everyone is sitting around waiting for an opening someone else is going to provide that never comes.
With the healing numbers increased, killers that AREN'T hell bent on camping someone to death won't feel like they need to do so to stand a chance. They know either time is going to be taken from generators, or that person is going to risk going down in a single hit. And honestly for every second I think on this, the more it looks like it's going to be just fine.
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1 kill facecamp - With a tuned build and strategy (perks only killer side, no juicy killer add-ons, no juicy toolboxes survivor side) the most common outcome currently is 3 kills, not only 1. (Sadly part of the trick of facecamping is making people think there is a chance at rescuing, which often can get everyone off gens. When they know there is no chance, they tend to not try.) It was 2 before the gen time increase, but that gave an extra 50 total gen seconds which affords most empowered facecamping killers the new 3. That is true most people throw to have fun, and that is a core design problem. If the least fun action is the game winning action, matchmaking won't be accurate.
People claimed killers will (camp and) tunnel less with 6.1.0 extra gen timers and basekit killer buffs, but in my soloq matches tunneling on average increased up to twice as much. (Moreso since they nerfed the only real disincentive for tunneling though tbf.) When bad players get an easy out they take it. The killers that didn't rely on camping and tunneling are the group that you are talking about. Sadly the ones reliant on camping and tunneling are going to get a buffed version of camping, and since they never stretched their muscles to try to win by not camping, they will continue to camp with even greater rewards. If hook timers are adjusted to keep things in proportion to one another (or even further to penalize camping), then there won't be any unintended buffs to an already existing problem.
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