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So....COB can only give you less than 4% regressions?
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-"I can think of a few"
What maps am I thinking about : Storehouse, Ironworks, Shelter woods, Suffo pit, Azarov's, Blood Lodge, Gas Heaven, Wretched Shop, All 5 corn maps, Both Crotus maps , Both Swamp maps, Lerys, Both Red Forest Maps, All Badham maps, The Game, Both Yamoka Maps, Ormond, Hawkins (even though its removed), Dead Dog, Mid, RPD, and Borgo.
Garden of Joy is actually not viable to 3 gen because the map is a "U" shame and it's way too easy to deny a 3 gen.
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It doesn't take 20 seconds to hook a survivor.
It takes at MOST 21.7 seconds. That is a worst-case scenario. Realistically, you will hook in 5-10 seconds most of the time.
While it takes you 10 seconds to find a survivor, it takes the other 3 survivors 10 seconds to find gens. Then while it takes you 40 seconds to down them 3 gens get 40/90. Then by the time you hook that survivor 3 gens are 50/90.
You can easily interrupt one of them in that time and another one will have to stop to go for the unhook. Meaning 1 gen will probably pop and you'll have 2 gens about 50-75% of the way there.
The reality is, if you were consistently losing your chases, but winning matches anyways. You were crutching on endless slowdowns like CoB and OC.
It was dumb to add regression perks that could be consistently and endlessly activated in the first place. All gen defense perks should have limited use or be tied directly to outplaying survivors. When perks are limited use (like corrupt) it ensures the killer needs to make the most of the limited time its active. When it's tied to outplaying a survivor to activate (like pop/jolt/pain res) it ensures that you're only getting as much value as your skill at the game allows.
When all it takes is kicking a gen to activate both of the 2 strongest slowdown perk in the game, of course, they are the obvious choice and there is no reason to use anything else. They were not only the strongest, they were infinite use with no risk. For that reason, these perks should be weaker than other options. CoB/OC should be weaker than other options like deadlock, pop, pentimento, ruin because there is 0 risk compared to those choices. The risk should proportionate to the reward.
(please buff ruin and pop though devs. 150% speed for ruin. 17.5% for of total progress for pop)
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So i use DOUBLE of base time to calculate.
And even if double of that,killer can still get3hooks which is far from even a draw
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You're gonna have to back that list up with some explanations, unfortunately, because I'm only seeing one map where 3-gen is basically required and that's Azarov's, due to its shape making anything other than a 3-gen a serious downside for you.
Some of them, like Dead Dawg and RPD, are easier to 3-gen on because of their generator spread, but that obviously doesn't automatically translate to holding a 3-gen being required so I'd have to hear your reasoning on all these maps. Ideally not one by one, if there's some overarching logic you're using for all of them that'd be the best thing to tackle.
(We've also still got the floating question of if you think CoB/Overcharge should've stayed the way it is, for the record.)
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Yea Call of Brine is in the grave together with Pop, Ruin, Overcharge and all the others. Jolt is left. Maybe it gets nerfed now XD.
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Corrupt, Pop, Pain resonance, Eruption, CoB, Overcharge were nerfed. Probably some others, but those I remember.
Jolt is decent, but m1 killer only.
CoB, Overcharge were not fixed, they were destroyed. That's very different. They are useless now. I will rather use Oppression than those.
Pain Resonance wasn't touched, it was nerfed hard. It's not dead perk tho, but you need to use some synergy with it, not alone use perk anymore.
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Not all in this patch, though, that's conflating two different statements. This patch is not nerfing all slowdown, it's fixing two problems and nerfing one additional slowdown perk that had more minor issues. Even the ones you mentioned as having been nerfed in the past are still good, since you've only really brought up Corrupt, Eruption, and Pop there; the first two are still very solid and the third can still be okay depending on situation.
And yeah, I'd say Call of Brine is being fixed, in a way. It's no longer going to be problematic for 3-gen builds but it is going to be a usable perk with a clear niche. Overcharge, to be fair, that one might actually be destroyed; the perk really needs a complete rework, though, so just removing it as a problem ASAP and dealing with it later is a pretty fair approach imo.
I'm going to not comment on Pain Res until I see it in action. Certainly nobody can deny that for your first couple hooks on Pain Res it's a buff in terms of raw effect, but we'll see if it needing to be on fresh survivors makes much of a difference to its usability. I'm trying not to comment too conclusively on PR until I can see it on live, save to point out that the buff they gave it from PTB to live will obviously have some effect.
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so just removing it as a problem ASAP and dealing with it later is a pretty fair approach imo.
issue is they will not touch it for like 2-3 years.
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Possibly, but considering Overcharge is currently a useless perk if you aren't doing the 3-gen strat, I really cannot bring myself to be all that mad.
Like, sure, it's useless now. It was useless before, though. If you aren't the 3-gen sort, nothing's changed, the problem's just been dealt with.
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I don't think that perk can be fixed. It should have been reworked.
Even before it was just noob stomper perk, not good for the game.
CoB might be fine with 150% imo, but there is no reason to use it nerfed to this level. Information part is irrelevant, when Nowhere to hide does that perk way better. That's actually still valid with Eruption.
CoB and Overcharge should have been completely changed.
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The perk wasn't fixed. The problem was, specifically, the problem with enabling incredibly easy 3-gen holding for games that last 40 minutes. That has been at least mostly addressed with the perks that made it possible taken off the table.
CoB's information isn't comparable to Nowhere To Hide. Its closest analogue is Surveillance, and there's ups and downs to both. It'll have a use, and that use shouldn't be regression because we saw how that ended up.
Completely changing perks takes a lot longer, and people's complaints had reached a fever pitch regarding 3-gens. Sure, they misidentified the cause as Skull Merchant, but that just means they'll still be mad even after she's addressed. The idea that a quick but imperfect fix should come in isn't entirely insane, imo.
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I would rather see just using kill switch, while fixing the perk, even if it takes few months.
This is lazy treatmant, just nuking the perk to fix a problem. There is already lot of useless perks on both sides, I don't think we need to add more.
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Eh, I think that'd be an over-reach of the killswitch. That functionality is for things that are broken, not badly designed. If we go down that road a lot of this game will end up disabled, lol.
Again, nuking a perk that is already useless is very different to nuking a perk that had legitimate function. Besides, Overcharge kiiiind of still works? It's just, only really useful for players at a level where skillchecks are frequently missed, which in fairness isn't nobody.
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Overcharge was always bad, nerfing him won't really change it this much.
CoB wasn't useless, it was quite good perk even without overcharge combo, it is terrible now. So killers still lost one good perk.
I mean, they better to come up with some better buffs to perks on both sides. So there is something to use.
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Yeah, I've been talking about Overcharge this whole time. CoB will be fine, it's always had the information aspect so the nerf to the regression rate won't harm it as badly as the nerfs to Overcharge.
It's not an incredible perk, but it's usable. You'd be surprised how useful those loud noise notifications can be, depending on context.
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It's not usable. Regression part is useless, information part is worse than existing perks (Nowhere to hide and Surveillance).
I want to see you play it. It sucks, there is no build I would use it for.
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Which is why BHVR should have looked at the root cause of why that was popular (gen speeds) and looked to rework the survivors objective instead. It’s been 7 years of gens and gens only. Give them a secondary mandatory objective prior to gates getting powered and then gen speeds won’t be such an issue.
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A large portion of killers are legit not designed to generate pressure effectively without having something to generally slow the game down. The question becomes what is an "acceptable" level of slowdown considering before gen kicking perks started getting nerfed the complaint was killers got to much value from passive slowdown perks. Passive slowdown as a result got heavily suppressed and gen kicking got buffed, but then the complaint became killers getting too much value outta constantly kicking gens. So now both types of slow down are heavily suppressed.
If this is the acceptable level of gen speed slowdown then at this point killers that aren't good at the traditional methods of generating pressure need to probably be considered for a rework of some sort that factors in ways to generally keep people pressured. Slowing down self healing takes some of the edge off, but it is sort of getting to the point where it can feel like killers aren't really allowed to impede the survivor object in meaningful ways unless you play specific killers.
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-"Dead Dawg and RPD, are easier to 3-gen on because of their generator spread, but that obviously doesn't automatically translate to holding a 3-gen being required"
I could load up the game with a squad of efficient players and show you that you're wrong. Around 90% of the time there is one viable 3 gen on Dead dog. Good players know this and remove it immediately. There is no M1 killer in the game that can successfully hold a "y gen" against 3 players on DD saloon.
RPD is even worse. There is almost always only one viable 3 gen on the map.; If you lose it then the game is over.
-"It doesn't take 20 seconds to hook a survivor."
The average is closer to 15 seconds overall when you consider that you have to waste a few seconds to make sure it is safe, then you pick up, then you carry. A longer carry will definitely be close to 20 seconds when you add in the other steps.
-"The reality is, if you were consistently losing your chases, but winning matches anyways. You were crutching on endless slowdowns like CoB and OC."
The reality is that most killers suck at chasing over the majority of the maps in DBD. You cannot for example hold a 3 gen on most of the maps as an M1 killer unless they are very close.
-"All gen defense perks should have limited use or be tied directly to outplaying survivors."
Should gen rushing perks have the same limits? What about toolboxes?
How do you define outplaying the killer?
-"A large portion of killers are legit not designed to generate pressure effectively without having something to generally slow the game down."
You're right but you're not going to convince survivor mains. What makes the problem worse is that efficient killers like Blight and Nurse still sometimes need efficiency perks to slow down the game or speed up chases. When the best killers need the strongest perks you know the "lower tier" killers are suffering.
-"but it is sort of getting to the point where it can feel like killers aren't really allowed to impede the survivor object in meaningful ways unless you play specific killers"
We've been at the point for a long time where we have 2 S tier killers that are viable for all tiers of play. And then we have a handful of A tier killers who work most of the time but need strong perks and often strong addons.
And then we have everyone else who even with the most amount of help just doesn't get much done.
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Honestly, I'm not concerned with most perks that increase gen speed because 90% of them suck. As for the only good ones, Hyperfocus is extremely difficult to use to the point that I don't think it will ever be meta for 99% of players. Combing with stakeout takes half your build to make it slightly good. The only other gen speed perk that's close to good is prove thyself, which is overrated IMO. It only makes a gen around 8 seconds faster at most and needs survivors to group up to work. This isn't playing optimally, which will be especially true with the gen lockdown 3 gen meta going away with CoB and OC being nerfed.
With toolboxes, BNP is overpowered and maybe commodious is a little strong, but the BNP is the real powerhouse of toolboxes.
But if the devs were to make good gen speed increasing perks, I would hope they would be tied to outplaying the killer. Ie. the perk powers up by spending time in chase to get its effect therefore if you have long chases against the killer the gens go faster.
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-"I'm not concerned with most perks that increase gen speed because 90% of them suck"
I think you don't know what you're talking about. Survivors who win save time for their team and waste time for the killer. Saving 9 seconds with prove might sound dumb but it makes all the difference in the world if two people have it vs when they don't in terms of interrupting them with "slow" killers.
Also let's be clear here - Gen regression kinda sucks as an idea when we consider there are 4 survivors and the killer at base has a 1/4th regression speed. Giving the killer a "200% regression gives them 1/2 of one survivor and there are still 4 survivors. Nobody is going to kick gens in the next patch because it was hardly worth it with the 2 perks that made it work.
Also I'd love to see the pick rates of gen rush perks if they got nerfed by 70% because that is what is happening to CoB/OC. Those perks are obliterated. Imagine if Streetwise, Built to last, Hyperfocus and all the gen rush perks got a 70% nerf - nobody would use them and that's my point. Furthermore nerfing the slowdown of one side but leaving the "rush" ability of the other side is absurd.
-"Hyperfocus is extremely difficult to use to the point that I don't think it will ever be meta"
This is a meta perk for good players already because you can make one 90 second generator be 40-45 seconds. This would be fine if:
- Toolboxes did not affect HF (like we see with autodidact).
- Stake out did not "convert" your failed great checks to good checks. The entire difficulty of this perk is removed because the perk steak out exists.
If you think Hyperfocus is ok then as killer we should have some way to either down a player every 3 minutes with a "press E to expose the person you are chasing effect" or be able to press E before hooking someone and they go to second stage for their first hook once per game.
That's the level of advantage that HF gives when used with a toolbox and stakeout.
-"the BNP is the real powerhouse of toolboxes."
Not even by a long shot. One green toolbox is very dangerous even without a BNP. You should go watch the video Otz put out about items being too strong about 6-8 months ago. The devs are NOT addressing TB with this patch but they are changing medkits.
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I went ahead and checked my Nightlight stats. Since project W has released, I have encountered 41 hyperfocuses while running 0 slowdown perks on killer myself.
Want to know how many of those escaped.
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The average escape rate of my opponents across all my matches is 13.09%
So hyperfocus users were actually less likely to escape at 7.3% than non hyperfocus users.
Hyperfocus requires too much commitment to be consistent. If you need a toolbox AND stake out AND hyperfocus you're going to be SoL when:
Deadlock/pain res interrupts your hyperfocus
The killer is a stealth killer preventing stake out stack generation
You get tunneled
You get camped
The killer is playing hit and run and forcing you off the gen, constantly interrupting hyperfocus.
When I run hyperfocus myself on it's own. I only sometimes manage to make it to 6 stacks. It's not bad when I use it, it's decent. However, it's a horrible perk for the average user and because of the MMR soft cap the skill levels where this perk would be busted overpowered will be very few and far between. It's a non issue.
If I can deal with the perk running 0 slowdowns, your average quad-slowdowns-Andy can handle this perk.
And like I said about the commodious, it's a little strong. it makes a gen about 11 seconds faster, which is decent since it's for solo repair, but it's not game changing, you can stack 8 more seconds into that running double charges which starts to approach the really good territory, but I'm not disagreeing with you there.
As for prove. It's biggest strengths are finishing the last gen a little quicker when there's no value in splitting up or trying to bust a 3 gen before the killer can come back to defend it. The former is okay, and the latter is dropping in value significantly with CoB and OC nerfed. Prove is bait, it tricks less experienced survivors into playing worse because it only counteracts the slowdown applied as base kit for coop repairing, and even then, it doesnt do it entirely. Want to know how else you can counteract that slowdown? Repairing separate gens, making your team harder to pressure in the process.
Perks that waste time for the killer or counteract the most effective strategies are simply better. Exhaustion perks, unbreakable, Adrenaline, OTR, Windows, lucky break, and even post nerf DS are all so much better. Even if you DS a nurse and she downs you again 5 seconds after her stun ends, making her take 8 more seconds to get you is more valuable than most of the gen speed perks.
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