Survivors Should Not Leave Blood Pools While Walking/Crouching.
One of the easier ways to find out where the Survivor went after returning to the Hook when you hear the Unhook notification is to simply follow their Blood Pools, which they will always leave (sans Perk)
If Survivors did not leave blood pools while Walking (and Crouching), there would be an option to try and walk away while the Unhooker leaves scratch marks to lure the Killer away, potentially risky, but opens the Player up to more options.
(I would suggest indicating that the Survivor is not leaving Blood Pools by them holding their side while Injured and Walking/Crouching)
However, the Hemorrhage Status Effect would negate this.
Comments
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If anything, this would be a better argument to just completely remove blood from recently unhooked survivors temporarily as an anti-tunneling measure regardless of whether they're walking or not (and I'm not saying whether this is a good idea or not), not to remove it any time they are walking or crouching. Removing it any time they are walking or crouching would do far more than just address the issue you're trying to address and isn't really necessary, but I wouldn't necessarily be opposed to it in some form specifically after an unhook.
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This is more or less addressing a core game dynamic. (Blood Pool tracking)
No Mither is more or less playing permanently Exposed in order to indefinitely recover fully.
The Grunts of Pain and Blood Pool suppression are there simply to facilitate that gameplay shift without incurring additional detriments (not that it's a good gameplay shift anyway).
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Sure. Part of the reason I was suggesting suppressing Blood Pools while walking and crouching was to also facilitate more dynamic gameplay options in Chase as well (with detriments, as you're now moving slower), outside of having to always bring a Perk for more options.
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Gut pallet spawns at the start of the Trial and have survivors able to build/set up more over the course of the Trial.
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I agree, we should probably give basekit Off The Record and basekit Guardian. I frequently tunnel and the pools of blood and grunts of pain make it easy to find recently unhooked survivors.
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Both of those Perks are fine on their own if Survivors want to be able to maintain information suppression while being able to Sprint. They don't need to be basekit.
I'm pretty sure crouching still muffles Grunts of Pain. (if it doesn't it should)
And with proper line of sight blockers being introduced in maps it'll be easier for Survivors to disengage/walk away from the Hook without being able to be spotted from halfway across the map. There's also something to be said about the other Survivor needing to make the choice between throwing down a trail of Scratch marks to lure the Killer towards a known location of a survivor vs following the other Survivor to heal.
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There are serval perks that block blood, I could easily see bHVR adding one to do with walking.
But there is no way I'd accept it being made so in the basekit for Survivors.
Why? Because one of the strengths of Dead by Daylight is signal sending between the Killer and Survivor dynamic, there is a reason there are many signals so that being completely hidden would be impossible or very hard. I see no reason to change this, not even but camping/tunneling would persuade me in that. This had to be a perk effect instead.
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A signal involves intent, that is part of communication.
Survivors do not intentionally bleed on the ground, it is something that happens when they become Injured, as defined by the system.
With this change, Blood Pools, or the lack thereof where there otherwise should be, it would fall under your definition of signal sending between the Killer and Survivor as now the Survivor is actively controlling the signal they are sending.
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They probably should be basekit perks. I’ll leave the hook and come back to it to follow the blood trail to the injured survivor. Also, I wear an expensive headset and usually I can still hear survivors grunts of pain even if they have Iron Will or No Mither. Breaking line of sight and hoping the killer doesn’t hear you or see trails of blood is a not a good tactic. If they’re dead set on tunneling, they will go out their way to track you which is why we should make it more difficult to track unhooked survivors.
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Cool. Points for client-side audio of survivor grunts of pain when certain thresholds (like crouching) are met.
If you think that there are certain things that should be excluded from the opposition for balance reasons, recall that the devs do have the ability to distinguish between server and client. (what you see/hear vs. what someone else see/hears).
This is assuming your argument for them (the perks) being basekit is a result of the minor audio remnants still being audible for you from your hardware investment, and not the blood trails, which are exclusively visual and have no leeway for hardware requirements.
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Yeah there should not be signals that you control so much, simple as.
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I think it's good idea to suppress grunts/pools of blood after unhook (during basekit BT time). It's a bad idea to have it all the time.
Reasoning being - tunneling is already too rewarding and nerfing said strategy (a little - it will still not help against hard-core tunnel where survivor never leaves line of sight of killer) promotes healthier gameplay. But adding it as an option to chase is not a good way to go. This would not help less experienced survivors and for good people there are usually already options (not counting S-tier killers/OP addons) - chases are fine the way they are and don't need any additional killer nerf. Killer should not really be in danger of loosing whole chase because of a cheeky FoV tech and then some timely walking behind some obstacle - that doesn't sound fair to me.
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That sounds like a new chase tool that isn't just the same old loop and drop a Pallet, promoting more mind-game play and introducing more chase variety.
Would the current focus on Vaults/Pallets being the main chase tools need to be tweaked in order to fit this new tool in? Yes.
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Ok. If there was a way how to buff killer chase to equalize it, then sure. But I doubt that's possible at this point. That's why I am skeptical. You increase a speed of killer a little bit and suddenly equal loops are a lot killer favored. That sounds bad to me.
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Not really interested in just boosting the speed of the Killer as a solution.
Maybe reduce the initial number of Pallets generated at the start, and introduce building pallets over the course of the match as an option for Survivors? This lack of Pallets at the start also creating a void where misinformation play becomes more important to do ok in chase, which can be facilitated by giving Survivors tools to suppress the information they emit to the Killer?
(EG: Crouching/Walking suppresses Blood Pools, Crouching suppresses Grunts of Pain)
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Sure. Fully usable for SWF that plays like a team. For soloQ? Well. Are we trying to loose them so hard?
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The problematic part of needing Pallets to be set up is indeed a communication issue regarding what zones of the Maps have chase resources ready and what zones don't. (This is also an issue with SoloQ vs. SWF callouts of what Pallets have been Broken as well)
Perhaps this can be addressed by whatever assembly method the Pallets having a discernable element indicating that "This loop hasn't had its pallet assembled", perhaps Yellow twine hanging on a wall that hasn't been collected to rope together the Planks of a Pallet. And perhaps also have Pallet Breaks cause a Global Loud Noise notification for Survivors as well. (Akin to the notification of a Gen being completed for a Killer), then a SoloQ survivor would be able to identify tiles that have had a Pallet placed by the lack of the Twine, and can keep track of dead-zones via the Loud Noise of a Pallet being Broken.
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Why not?
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Ngl, if you take away the pool of blood the killers are just going to face camp.
They need the 1st kill asap.
So if you remove the blood pools they will have to play even safer than before.
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cause blood/ moans is the only way to find a hiding survivor. its a part of the game
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Yeah... The only way to find an Injured hiding Survivor. You do realize that there's a Healthy state as well, right, that they start in? In which they don't leave Blood Pools or moan?
And how do they get Injured? The Killer needs to have been nearby, or the Killer made good use of an external damaging Tool.
Being Injured should be a detriment to incentivize Healing, yes, otherwise you can be found more easily or (in this suggestion) need to take it slow and steady, which takes time. However outside of trying to get massive healing speeds to heal off of hook immediately (or to bring a med-kit, thank goodness that got nerfed on the Self-healing front), there's not really any unique trade-off counterplay. (A Locker? Maybe? But you leave Blood Pools to it and still moan a bit anyway)
I'd be ok with the sentiment of "You're Injured, now gameplay is different", but it isn't. You just play safer with the same tools you have because you don't actually have the ability to hide anymore even though you're in your most vulnerable state.... I wonder if there's a way to flip that on its head so that Healthy Survivors are easier to find than Injured ones... Probably would need to introduce Entity-magic on that one.
So because you can't tunnel as easily following Blood Pools after you Proxied Hook, you're going to camp, like a lot of other Killers are supposedly doing now anyway, creating more fuel for the fire to address camping?
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i believe crouching should shorten the blood stay time and others should not
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oh and you could fake a tunnel to make them body block so you start a different chase
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Why do you think bleeding after taking a health state loss needs counter play
Sounds like you want bHVR to treat bleeding like Scratchmarks.
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... What did you think I was talking about otherwise?
More dynamic chase interactions that also can be leveraged in use with anti-tunneling, so it's not literally the game saying no you can't tunnel this survivor, the Survivor actually has to make an effort not to get tunneled.
It's a one-two punch.
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didnt ask if you did or not, I asked why.
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I like hunting Survivors (I don't use Aura Read Perks). I don't like that proxy-camping (by tunneling off of Hook notification immediately, especially if I'm holding a 3-Gen) is the optimal method of reaching the average K/D. Because it makes chases stale for me, as it's the same thing for the entire duration of the Trial after I get the first Hook in with very little of "The Hunt".
An Unhooked Survivors is always Injured, and the Unhook notifies me of where they were Unhooked, so if I haven't found another Survivor to chase yet, I can go back to Hook and follow the Blood Pools/Scratch Marks.
The counterplay to this would be "Well maybe get the Killers aggro and pull them away from the Hook", which I don't like because then a Survivor isn't trying to hide, with me seeking, it's them trying to pull me into a chase with them. Doesn't give me the "Scary Big Bad" vibes.
Even if I do find another Survivor, or they throw themselves at me, if I haven't hit them yet it still could be optimal for me to return back to Hook to tunnel the Survivor as I know they're around and are likely leaving information/being Healed and then I can disrupt the action of two Survivors and expedite the "Pressure point of no return on Gens", or the point where the Altruism Loop doesn't leave much excess work to be performed on Generators by Tunneling out a Survivor quickly.
So I'm trying to figure out how to introduce more "Hunting time" throughout the Trial, apart from the start of it. Primarily this means reducing how optimal a proxy-camp 3-Gen is, but also by giving Survivors more Tools to obfuscate information and play more mindgames. As I'm thinking about it more things pop up, though I am not overlooking that if the proxy-camp-tunnel/3-Gen is reduced in strength, it still doesn't address that Survivors still have a decent amount of problematic tools in their Kit, EG: Med-kit self-heal efficiency and charge scaling (which thankfully has already been targeted), BNP, Toolboxes in general, and all Pallets spawning at the start disproportionally impacting M1 Killers ability to jumpstart the Altruism Loop vs. anti-loop Killers.
So far my ideas for reducing the effectiveness of the proxy-camp/tunnel has been this and https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/373198/rough-anti-camp-basement-new-mechanic-s-idea
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Well by that logic, according to my voiced opinions, you think that the med-kit changes are a bad thing?
Post edited by Rizzo on0 -
It depends.
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Undoubtedly, things are not as usually cut and dry as one might hope. It would be relatively dull if life boiled down to "everyone that I agree with is good and everyone I don't agree with is bad".
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I see no chance of this happening, it would increase the Killers stress by making them need to search much more.
I rather keep the game as it is, dbd needs to have chase to function, if you add more hunting time killers will struggle for time.
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And then they can take Aura reading Perks and the like, which now have even more value to contend with Gen stall/regression Perks by reducing the downtime between chases.
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Yes.
The reason camping is a thing in the first place stems from the size of maps currently in play and the amounts of safe pallets/windows that are scattered all over.
If a singular "bad chase" wasn't so catastrophic for killers (as in its easy to loop most killers for 2min+ with good RNG just holding w towards the next safe pallet) ... maybe, just maybe... we wouldn't see camping and tunneling so much.
It used to be that killers could moon walk and mind game most tiles... now most tiles offers Line of sight on the killer to survivors via holes in walls and other tiles that involves short objects such as cars and stone walls.
Honestly, chases just aren't fun for M1 killers unless they have a specific "anti-chase" power ... in which case, cause survivors tend to DC instantly when they don't get what they want.
I hate to say it but, part of the reason I like Oni is because it's a rewarding experience to actually have to chase as an M1 killer to obtain my power but needless to say, its very easy for some good survivors to make my life completely miserable on most map as they loop me from a side of the map to the other as I try to just get a 1st hit.
The game is no longer balanced for M1 killers and simply assumes that you are playing Blight or the Nurse and honestly, this is what ruins the experience for me at least.
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Yep. Kinda hoping they can figure out a way to reduce pallet/vault density in the early-game. Make survivors build those chase interactables over the course of the Trial as a way to "prolong the trial" instead of just inflating gen times. Would also mean that Stealth is a bit more of a benefit at the start given that initial chase weakness at the start. With enough flexibility in placement of the chase interactables you could also probably address 3-Gens by moving excess Pallets and whatnot towards the 3-Gen.
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If survivor can loop you for 2+mins and you are still on that chase, then you deserve to loose that game. That one is HUGE misplay on killer's side.
Suppose opposite is true. "Why should a killer win just because he can use his power and down every survivor within 20s? Buff gen progression perks/items to compensate." What would you respond to that? Maybe "git gut"?
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