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Killers should be punished for tunnelling and not rewarded
Comments
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What about when all 4 survivors TUNNEL a gen?
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Genrushing is also an optional play style for survivors, as of late survivors are abusing that option massively.
They can entertain killers by triggering multiple chases, getting downed, rescue each other and so on. Instead, they just get glued to nearest generator and hope someone else does the distraction or killer doesn't find them and does waste more time.
Considering every chase can be extended to 1 minute or more, survivors can heal each other for endless amount of time and bleedout timer is very generous, there's no reason for survivors to try to end the match as quickly as possible.
Does it all sound right for you? Because that's how your statement does sound to me at least about how killers could play.
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I don't Tunnel either... so what's your point
The game only rewards Kills/ Escapes
So Killers get upset when they lose so they do what they can
So Survivors get upset when they lose so they do what they can
Killers blame Survivors and Survivors blame Killers
They don't want to look at themselves for any loss... they will blame everyone and everything else
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Well that’s solo que for you but that has nothing to do with the camping and tunneling
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Those two play styles are not comparable because doing the main objective is different than specifically targeting one person out of the game
Tunneling is an unsportsmanlike playstyle that disables a player to actually play the game.
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Why tunneling is an unsportsmanlike playstyle when it directly contributes to killer's objective which is to kill all survivors? I don't see anyone saying that genrush is unsportsmanlike playstyle even though it is the main objective of survivors. So it's ok for survivors to try to win asap but not ok for a killer?
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Tunneling it's just one option of contributing to The Killers objective as in they have other options like after hooking a Survivor they can go after someone else instead of going after the one who just got unhooked.
I can't remember if it was this thread or a different one but I did say that I would be on the Killer's side about this if they weren't abusing the tunneling option every single game.
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No Killers should be rewarded for going for mutible hooks.
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Unless you have a 4 man SWF, gen rushing is not a thing. A 4-man can have builds that exploit gen finish speed, but 4-man teams are well under 10% of matches in this game. So in like 95% of your matches gen rush is a myth. What killers like to call gen rushing is just survivors doing one of their objectives. While they also off-hook, hide and heal (other objectives). No chase need be extended to over 1 min, if you haven't downed them in half that time break off and patrol your gens. You want to compare doing gens with tunneling but there is no comparison. Tunneling is not an objective, repairing gens is. Repeated flashlight blinds is a better comparison to tunneling.
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Tunneling it's just one option of contributing to the survivors objective as in they have other options like after working on a gen for a bit they can go after another gen instead of going after the one that just got worked on.
Both sides either can or can't do their objective optimally, not just one side. Otherwise you're upholding double standards.
If killers are "abusing" focusing kills to 100% so are survivors with focusing gens to 100%.
Killers main objective is to get kills, so if you want them to stop their kills partway survivors need to do the same with their objective.
Post edited by MrPenguin on0 -
For the second one its because the two are linked by being either sides main objective. Because the game is asymmetrical, you can't just ignore the other sides version of something all the time and isolate topics like in other games. Some topics are linked to something on the other side that needs to be taken into account. In other games if you change something its changed for everybody, not just one side.
Responses to removing tunneling are basically "ok but you also need to address gen speeds then" and the response to that is usually "No I still want to be able to do my objective efficiently, only you should get slowed down" which of course is not going to go well after that point because you're having double standards put up.
The majority of killers would be fine with tunneling vanishing as long as they either get an equally strong alternative in its place or survivors also get equally slowed down with them. But as we can see here, a lot of survivors do not agree with that. Call it survivor entitlement or w.e., but that mindset needs to change.
If they want this from killers they need to be willing to give an equivalent in return.
Post edited by MrPenguin on2 -
So when killer does and should switch it's target after unhook, why survivors don't switch their generators after doing like 25 or 50% of the progress? Just so you know 1 hook is 33.3% of objective progress regarding one particular target and there are 4 of them in the game. So who is progressing faster - survivors who sit on gens or killer in terms of percentage by playing ''fairly''?
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Why not just make reason for killer to focus different survivors?
BBQ did it well, they are trying to make it against with Pain resonance change, which is good.
Pop and Ruin were good slowdown perks for this too, because killer had to leave hook (unless there was gen with progress next to it).
But without specific perks, what do you gain by hooking survivor who wasn't hooked yet, when you have 1-2 survivors dead on hook? Simply effectiveness of doing that is completely different. It's not really hard concept.
Give me reason why to hook everyone other than your moral code.
It's also how survivors play. If you are dead on hook, you are supposed to play save, but when you go unhook in front of me, I should ignore you or what?
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Considering gens take 90 seconds each, not being able to complete them from 0% to 100% would be a ridiculous mechanic, Killers have plenty of gen regression perks they could use to give them more time (like Hex Ruin for one). Also it's a part of the killers job to scare survivors off the gens.
After you hook for Survivor that Survivor is marked with a hook for the whole rest of the game you hook them again they have a second hook and third hook they're out of the game, sure a Survivor can get a gen to 50% and then leave after being scared off or whatever but the killer can kick the generator or use a different gen regressing perk to lower the progress of that gen no matter the progress is, therefore the two objectives are not comparable.
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Once a gen is done the killer has a mark that can't be undone.
time on a gen = time in chase. The time this take can be extended by either side.
Survivors have plenty of second chance and chase extending perks they can use just like killer regression. Base kit killers have kicks and survivors have looping, pallets, windows, and can heal if they escape chase. Plus survivors can also prevent a hook via body blocking, going to a hook dead zone, as well as perks like Sabo, Boil Over, and ect.
Getting a hook = completing a gen. This can't be undone by either side.
The survivors also only have to get 5 + gates as opposed to the killers max of 12.
If not being able to go 0% to 100% would be ridiculous, than killers should be allowed to tunnel and get their kill complete.
You're still defending double standards, thus preventing actual solutions from being discussed.
The two objectives are perfectly comparable if you actually understand how they relate to each other.
Also a gen is only 90 secs if you don't hit any great skill checks or have anything to speed it up. Most players can hit at least a few greats per gen, even if not intentionally.
Post edited by MrPenguin on2 -
I mean, they do kind of get punished. Even one of the devs said that successful tunnelling can increase your MMR above your comfort zone, to the point where you get much harder opponents and will struggle. When I see a player who both tunnels and complains that they're going against Seal Team 6 every game, I feel like they've kind of punished themselves.
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I don't think getting put into your appropriate skill bracket is a "punishment". You might not be in your comfort zone but that's the point, your games should be more balanced not comfortable and easy.
If the MMR is working well at least (which its not).
However yeah if you're going to play the most efficient way then you shouldn't be complaining about the other team doing the same. Similarly if survivors are going to focus down gens they shouldn't be complaining about killers focusing down kills.
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I thought the devs did a patch where survivors couldn't directly block the hook?
12 hooks total, three hooks per Survivor, Killers Don't Need all 12 hooks unless they are a tryhard who needs a 4Ks every game.
(Just like tryhard survivors need an escape every single game but that's beside the point)
Tunneling a player at the start of a game is disabling them from actually playing the game why would anyone want to play Survivor at that point when killer is clearly the best role considering they get to be in the match for its entirety where survivors are only in it until they are eliminated or escape.
And I'm not defending double standards tunneling is not an objective doing gen's is.
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Tunneling is an optional play style Killers don't need to they want to.
Survivors need to do gen's if they don't then they're just running around until 3 Survivors die and one might get the hatch.
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Trolls gimp your team faster with the current system.
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Not blocking the hook, "body blocking" as in getting in the killers way in an attempt to make them hit you to give your teammate time. Like body blocking with BT, you're taking the hit for your teammate.
Sure that's why I said max. Under a non-tunneling system, a killer would not have "won" until around 10 hooks, since that's a 3k and a 3k is a win. That's just 2 off from 12.
Tunneling a survivor is not disabling them from playing the game, they're still playing. They're doing chases, they're looping, they're dropping pallets ect. They are playing the game.
Killers whole point is to get survivors out the game. If that's not what you want you shouldn't be playing DBD.
Yeah you are defending double standards.
Tunneling is not an objective, neither is focusing gens. You don't need to focus 1 survivor to eventually get 1 kill the same way you don't need to focus 1 gen to eventually get 1 done.
Gens are the objective, not focusing gens.
Kills are the objective, not focusing (tunneling) kills.
Saying survivors can focus gens but killers can't focus their objective is a double standard. So to reword your phrase to not defend double standards:
Focusing down kills is not the objective, neither is focusing gens.
Gens are the objective, and so are kills.
Killers shouldn't focus down kills, and survivors shouldn't focus down gens.
or
Survivors can focus down gens, so killers can focus down kills.
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Incorrect.
You're not taking gen speed into account. Completion would be achieved long before a single person could use up all the tickets unless the killer is working in tandem with 2 of the survivors.
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Same on the survivor side with gens. Its optional if they focus down gens or not.
They can do totems, chest, or help their teammates by healing or taking hits. They can do gens partially then find a fresh one. They don't need to just run around doing nothing.
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Gotcha I was confused so in that case run Starstruck, or agitation or iron grasp I believe it's what it's called?
3k every game? and why 3k?
When I did play Survivor I didn't need to get a 3 out to consider that a win, I mean sure be nice if I could get my randoms out and all.
Well ok you can see it that way, that Survivor gets god tier at looping why do killers get to complain about gen rushing if they're focusing down one Survivor who happens to be good at looping? What is the rest of the team / randoms supposed to do while you're focusing down one survivor?
Stand around and wait their turn? No they're going to do gen's because they want to open the exit gates and get an as many survivors out.
I don't have a problem with the Killers objective to get kills I have a problem with them abusing a certain play style by using it every single match at the start of the game.
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How? How longer chases with better loopers would lasts less than shorter chases with worse loopers? Yeah, if killer commit to that one survivor and w8 for it near the hook instead of applying pressure on others... but this is camping, and im talking about tunneling.
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It's 3K and 3E (escapes) because that's what the devs defined as a win when they introduced MMR as stated in their dev stream at the time and as datamined from the game itself.
For the killer to win they need 3 kills. It doesn't matter how or how many hooks, all the game cares about is "did they die or not?". For survivor its a little different. The team as a whole wins with 3 escapes, however the individual survivor only wins if they escape.
Hatch counts as neutral, its neither a kill or an escape and just voids out the survivor from consideration essentially.
The system could be better, but that's the current one.
Killers shouldn't complain about survivors playing efficiently if they are also playing efficiently.
Not tunneling and not focusing one gen does not mean waiting until the other side catches up. It's just doing thing in a way that allows for the other side to be on equal playing ground if they are also not focusing down their objective.
So in your example, the other survivors should theoretically be spreading out their gen progress doing totems and w.e. but the killer can still lose if they get outplayed.
It's the same way that sometimes a killer can win by spreading hooks if the survivor team does poorly enough or if the killer just really outclasses them.
If anything the survivors slowing down should help with the looping complaints as killers would have more time to actually deal with how strong maps are for survivors.
If you're going to say its fine because survivors want "as many out" as possible, then you need to be ok with killers doing the same to get as many kills as possible. Otherwise it's hypocrisy.
Its the same as survivors spawning in and completing a gen right away and focusing gens all game.
In the current system its not abuse, its been okayed by the devs as something non-reportable. If it was abuse, it would be reportable.
If you personally don't like it then that's understandable, but that's not the same as it being abuse and that it shouldn't be allowed.
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Implement the ticket system along with an anti tunnel system.
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Do you always agree with everything the devs say or do about this game? Personally there are updates I don't agree with (but of course it's not the end of the world) which is why I play killer now not survivor.
In my opinion each individual player makes up what is considered a win if that's a 1K, 2K, 3K or 4K for you that's fine you don't have to agree with what the developers say about what's considered a win for either side. Just don't expect to win every single game.
I agree the system is weird.
Map reworks are a completely different discussion, but I will agree there are some maps that I don't like when I play killer. (But still a different can of worms)
Survivors speed shouldn't have to slow down because you're spending too much time in one chase, that being said this discussion isn't about speed it's about tunneling.
Again I never said I have a problem with Killers getting kills it's how they're getting them, of course the devs are going to approve tunneling it's a optional play style you don't have to play that way you want to, when most killers tunnel at the start of the game and so on that should be considered abusing a playstyle.
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You can't quickly "tunnel" somebody out with this suggested system. If the killer only attacked one person the entire match under this suggested system, it would get them nowhere because the team could just leave the person on hook and they would never be sacrificed until the tickets are gone, and the only way that happens is if the killer goes and hooks more survivors to burn down the ticket counter before the gens are completed. This suggested system combined with the upcoming anti-camp changes would make it utterly pointless to camp hooks, tunnel people or proxy camp a hook.
This system would force the killer to go for hooks and actually exercise skill with their kit if they want to win.
And again, it might take some experimentation to figure out how many tickets the survivors should start with.
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Its not about whether I agree or not, its the devs game and they decide what's the win condition.
Having it changed, sure, but that's not the discussion that was taking place. I think the game would be better with a different win condition like hooks, but that means gen speeds need to be balanced around whatever hook count gets decided as a "win".
Sorry, I wasn't saying survivor speeds should go down because a chase is taking too long. They should go down if we want tunneling to cease, so that its reasonable for the killer to win. I don't think its reasonable to only be able to win because the survivors greatly messed up or you outclass them so much that it doesn't matter that they were playing tryhard by focusing gens and you weren't.
It is about tunneling. As is, killer speeds and survivor speeds are only kept somewhat in check because of focusing on both sides. If you take only one side out, the balance gets skewed heavily. So, in order to facilitate the speed at which killers complete their objective without tunneling, gen speeds would also need to go down.
Whether by community sentiment or an actual systematic change.
There are killers who don't tunnel, I don't see why survivors can't do the same with their objective and slow it down to facilitate those players more.
Again, if its abuse to focus your objective than that needs to be true for both sides. Its not a problem with survivors doing gens and escaping, its how they do it.
I don't care which as long as its consistent for both sides.
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That's fair, though if you only consider a 3K as a win you're setting yourself up to be disappointed from time to time that goes both ways.
I'd actually prefer if killer wins could be based off hooks not kills, I also agree that gen's should be balanced around that if only that could be the case.
Except gen's already take 90 seconds, gen rushing is only a problem (for some) cuz there's nothing else survivors have to do to escape, since that's the main goal for survivors, if there were other things survivors had to do in order to be allowed to escape Killers would have more time.
Adjusting speed to make things like gen's, healing and movement would only stall out the game in a way some people don't want.
This being said this doesn't mean any of it is going to stop tunneling, that's why I lean heavily on it being considered abuse it should be reportable, or less rewarding. (In my opinion)
Post edited by Mane on0 -
So it appears there's this idea that killers should not tryhard and aim for victory too much, be it tunneling, camping, proxy camping, slugging or whatever else killer can do because it's not fun for survivors. Meanwhile it's ok to go full elite special ops with best items and most reliable perk loadout, repair gens as soon as possible, even if that means there will be 0 interaction with killer and 0 altruism points earned.
I think MrPenguin pretty much described what I wanted to say so I'll just sum it up with this - you can't take something out without giving something of equal value in exchange. So unless there's a suggestion about how to reward killer for going for different survivors ( like make basekit Grim Embrace and make it work twice ) then this talk is nothing but DS defending and will lead to nowhere new.
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You're assuming that the killer has the game sense, chase skill, and understanding of map pressure where *switching* to tunneling can be the best play.
In that sense I'd agree that they are in the correct MMR bracket. Although, I'd also say that this killer has enough knowledge to understand what went wrong, what they could've or should've done in that situation, and how they can improve in the future.
However, there's a different kind of killer who lacks game sense and/or skill, who always uses tunneling as a powerful tool immediately. These are the killers who will win and raise their MMR by sheer brute force, but then when opponents can begin to counter this strategy, they have nothing other than 'tunneling stronk' to fall back on, and that is already failing them.
You see this second type of killer a lot on this forum: where they've boosted their MMR above their skill level because tunneling is powerful and not complicated to pull off, or even because of broken perks (Eruption), and they have no introspection or perhaps even desire to consider improving.
These are the people who, when their *only* strategy of tunneling fails them, immediately close the game and post online to rant about hopeless games and survivor nerfs, while not even considering that they could have made even one mistake.
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Well you can't have your cake and eat it too. Survivors need to understand that they are wanting the game to take longer so their objective will take longer. 90 seconds isn't enough time with how many hooks a killer would currently need.
If you don't want to slow down survivors you need to speed up killers.
So the number of hooks survivors have available would need to go down or the amount of gen time they have to do would need to go up.
You can also introduce more objectives for the survivor.
You need to do something to equal an entire survivor being left alive instead of taken out early.
With that we can also address tunneling in some way. Both should happen at the same time, making non tunneling more viable and adding in an anti-tunnel system.
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Well if they don't then their MMR will stop right there. They will be in their appropriate skill bracket. They will climb, reach a little too high, lose, drop back down, and start winning again. That's exactly what its supposed to do.
Again if MMR worked well.
Also getting a survivor out the game asap is always the best move. Anything that would slow that down is actively hurting your chances at wining.
That needs to change if we want the game to improve in this aspect.
Not sure what other strategy you're suggesting that is as strong as getting an entire player out the game.
Those players not wanting to improve is a problem with them and there's nothing you can really do to change that within the game.
Post edited by MrPenguin on0 -
Yeah, exactly, you are talking about camping, ticket system would help with that. but it would incetive tunneling more. If there is a weakest link in a party, killer will tunnel this one even more than now since it now not only remove that one guy, but will deplete etire team tickets.
Yes, if Killer would like to camp this one person on hook, they will most likely never die. But we are talking about tunneling, not camping.
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The killer's objective is to kill. There are no rules that pop up before the match starts that says, "Hey look buddy, you should kill survivors but don't focus all your hooks on one guy. Hook each survivor once and let at least two of them escape so they don't cry on the forums."
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Not really, it's hard but not impossible to win as 3.
But win as 3 when everyone is on dead hook? Good luck with that.
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You should watch the tutorial again. You are missing some information on how to play this game, but it isn't very hard to understand the other objectives. I bet you could learn them with one pass through the instructions.
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Of course it does. That's why it was implemented and why BT was basically a required perk before it was. You get hit off hook and just run to the next loop. It buys a lot of time for your team.
Pretending that because it doesn't make you invincible it's worthless is incredibly disingenuous. Fallacious. There's a reason BT was an incredibly popular perk before and it remains very useful as a basekit mechanic.
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Correctly need? You don't need a 3K or 4K every single game, I'm not saying you shouldn't strive for that but understand that can't have your cake and eat it too goes both ways, especially considering I never said that I assume to "Correctly" win every game as Survivor nor should anyone else.
More objectives for survivors is what I was saying before, but again that doesn't mean it's going to stop tunneling you're assuming that's a playstyle that can be stopped with more time given to Killers it's not you can't stop people from playing certain ways unless it's against the rules or less rewarding.
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You're not even reading what's written...
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Killers have their ability, add-ons and 4 different perks of their choosing, there are also gen regressing perks you can choose from, Aura reading perks and add-ons, there are also perks that expose survivors so that there a one hit instead of two And Killers know exactly where all of the gens are because it's highlighted in Red for you.
Gen rushing is only a problem when you're going against a 4 man SWF not a 4 man team of randoms, since a SWF can communicate and agree to bring in certain perks to help the team, you can't really do that with randoms they're less likely to coordinate perks like that especially with the one minute timer you have before the game starts.
Post edited by Mane on0 -
No you don't need it every game but it should be reasonably achievable. I never said you should get it every single game. Currently it's not reasonable. Maybe if you're playing a cracked Nurse, but for the vast majority of the killer cast no.
Doing these changes alone won't stop tunneling, but these changes are needed to make not tunneling consistently viable, and to allow the space for an anti-tunnel system/mechanic to be introduced.
Preferably both happen at the same time, not tunneling becomes viable and anti-tunnel gets introduced.
Post edited by MrPenguin on0 -
Currently,
Map design favors survivors way too hard to let most killer have a realistic chance at winning via 12 hooks stages and dedication to chases.
Survivors can complain all they want about 3 gens, slugging, camping and insta-down...
It's not goig anywhere.
The more those strats gets nerfed, the more aggressive killers will be in applying said strategies... its a feedback loop.
They need to rollback all the "freebies" they gave survivors, then and only then... would killer feel like it's worth playing in a more relaxed way.
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I disagree, it'll make those strategies easier the whole point of those "freebies" was to attempt to stop killers from abusing those strategies.
You can't stop people from playing certain ways unless it's against the rules or less rewarding.
The worst part is both sides have people who are always waiting for the next Nerf.
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Killers get kills when they've earned it, survivors get Escape when they've earned it I feel like both are within reach for the average player.
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I mean, they are achievable with tunneling sure. That's still earning it.
Is it possible without? Sure. Is it reasonable? No.
The general consensus is that going for hooks is just not a consistently viable strategy with any type of competent survivor team.
If you believe that killers like Trapper, Myers, Ghostface, and Legion can go for hooks and still win against any sort of good team on a consistent basis, we'll just have to agree to disagree.
I say this as someone who plays for hooks. It's not a good strategy. I just have more fun playing that way to be in chases as much as possible and to feel like I'm always active, amongst other things. I'd rather fun than be playing "optimally" but that's just me.
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but camping, slugging and tunneling isn't against any rule in the game.
It's against the survivor rulebook for killers, which is categorized under "fantasy' at the bookstore.
Why the hell would we do anything further to help survivors after all that was already done for FREE?
its time we let them die as they should for once, killers deserve to win sometimes too.
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how about we stop trying to punish players for doing what even the devs call a legitimate strategy?
If you want more people to stop tunneling and camping, you're gonna have to change a lot. map design, buff m1 killers, remove gen regression (which BHVR basically did) and gen progression perks, remove sbmm and go back to the old emblem system, there's a lot the devs can do to make the game more fun for everyone, they just don't know how to do it.
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