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So hook suicides weren't addressed
It's good BHVR is making it so DCers will be replaced by bots but many people kill themselves on hook instead to avoid the DC penalty and that's not being changed at all.
Please just remove the unhook attempt if you aren't running Deliverance, please.
(Also rework Slippery Meat, Up the Ante and Luck offerings)
Comments
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Nope because there are actually challenges/achievements to unhook yourself, I believe unhook 100 times is something for achievers to do.
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And by FAR the best way to do that acheivement is to run Deli, which you would still be able to do.
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Hope that they remove the self-unhook at the same time they add the unhook denial.
If I can't leave the game that's fine, but at least let me stop others from unhooking me in front of the killer.
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Making it so you can't kobe still doesn't fix the problem. You can't make players play a game they don't want to play. If they remove being able to kobe then ppl will just afk. They need to fix the reasons players are wanting to go next.
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The only way you can solve DC/giving up is making a functional matchmaking so players aren't wasting hours of their lives and are actually invested in playing the game. And since BHVR adamantly refuses to implement a matchmaking system that isn't complete irredeemable garbage, we are stuck with this situation. People will give up, throw themselves at the killer, locker spam, go AFK and play another game. You can't force people to play something they don't want to. End of story.
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Why have a DC penalty at all then, right?
The fact is that by queueing into a game you're agreeing to play out that game, regardless of how other people play. DCing, killing yourself on hook or just giving up and afking ruins the game for the other players. This is why there are and should be strict punishments in place to deter people from doing these things.
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Even with a magically-perfect matchmaking system that always brought 5 players of identical skill level into a perfectly-balanced map and even took into account the power of perks, items and addons, people would STILL throw their toys out of the pram and give up when things aren't going their way.
This is why we need these punishments for people who ruin every else's game.
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Sure there might be some times ppl would do it but it wouldn't be a prominent issue. Like you removing being able to kobe and those players now afk. You punish afking and those players now sandbag. You don't fix the problem.
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With the upcoming anti-camp thing, the hook escape attempt mechanic and the struggle state should just be removed.
No killing yourself on hook anymore, you can only do guarenteed escapes like the anti-camp mechanic and Deliverance.
Slippery Meat & Up the Ante can be reworked, probably to synergize with the anti-camp mechanic. Luck offerings can be removed or reworked to do something else as well.
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There's no way to completely fix a player that just wants to ruin things for everyone else, true. Almost no video game with any amount of player agency has managed that because you just can't. You can however make it more punishing and more annoying to do those things to deter some of those people from doing it.
No, it won't 100% solve the issue but it will reduce the problem which is all BHVR can do. Revamping the report system would be another way to help reduce repeated offenders.
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You're right, you DCing/killing yourself on hook is actually a -good- thing. You're just making the game more fun for the others and totally not being incredibly childish and selfish. You're totally not delusional. Not at all.
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No.
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yeah either the 4% will be taken out or the people who do it will be banned like in every game, that's called "griefing"
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Fail sarcasm and also I dont play with solo randoms I swf 100% and dont dc =)
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Sure, but it feels like you are putting the cart Infront of the horse. It could even be on of those things where you are just adding gas to the fire. If the game is in a bad state that this is such a problem I think you are just making it even worse. Feel like it would be a good idea to look at doing this if they can fix the core issues first and then look at punishments after to reduce it even further.
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"The game is in the bad state"
Then why bother playing?
That being said, I've seen ppl killing themselves once they knew who they were playing against or they played bad and got downed. You can't justify this shіt.
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You're right... damn
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Well I think if TCM is a good game dbd might lose half the player base. I think ppl are playing this game because there isn't anything else currently. I think the last year couple years have been the worst state this game ever been in, and I've been playing since July 1st 2016.
It depends on why ppl gg go next. Are ppl looking to go next when they see a SM? Players might go down fast and go next out of just being frustrated by how bad the game is overall. Can't really blame ppl wanting to go next vs certain killers.
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I do understand partly why people outright give up against SM just because it's literally impossible to win against a proper 3-genning one, and it's one of the only times I don't hold it again people.
Most DCs though are because someone went down in chase too quickly for their liking or because the killer is winning. There's no excuse for DCing or suiciding because of that, it's childish and petty.
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They can say that it is but there is a difference between saying something vs taking action on it.
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I mean that's fair. IDK something does need to be done but I think punishing players right now isn't the direction to go when the game isn't fun. I've experienced this back on Spirit release. Devs took their sweet time doing any balance for Spirit and survivors ended up just gg go next anytime there was a Spirit. The situation we are in has been very rare for this game and any time something like this has popped up it was because there was a serious problem in the game.
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It doesn't solve the problem. I want the game to be fixed not shift problems around. Removing the hook thing just moves it elsewhere. They do not actively punish for AFK. And at the end of the day you can't force a player to try. You can't solve the game being a 3v1 by punishment. You need to make the players actually want to play that game.
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But they are constantly f r u s t r a t e d, why would a normal person continue playing a game that makes them f r u s t r a t e d? That's because they're not frustrated, they just don't like when smth happens not as they wanted.
They saw that they're playing against nurse/huntress/dredge/etc? They rush to them and let them hook themselves even though the killer happen to be mid and you and 2 remaining teammates smh manage to do 4 gens but eventually fail because you lacked the input of the 4th surv.
They unintentionally bumped into trees/walls and got downed? They immediately kill themselves on hook. All these examples are based on my own experience and I can tell you that it's already becoming common. Ppl throw games over nothing just... because they can. They know that they won't be punished. This is just childish and can't be justified. At this point these brats can just uninstall and never come back, they'll do a favour for a normal players, players, that spend their time to queue/load in just for it to be thrown because of someone's tantrums.
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Bots aren't solving any problems, they basically exist for killers to be able to trigger perks and survivors to have an additional body that the killer can ignore completely.
Bots are a terrible idea that only create more problems in the long run. It's at best a band aid and at worst a buggy, highly abusable mechanic by both sides.
Can't wait for killers who get trapped in an all-bot lobby because the survivors all quit early, or survivors who are camped to bleed out on the ground for 4 minutes while the bot is stuck, bugged, or just 'given hatch' by the killer.
Without addressing literally any of the reasons survivors are leaving games, this also removes the 'just be a good teammate' incentive to stay in a losing or lost game. If the only thing keeping some people in games is to not leave the team short handed, well... Apparently that's not an issue anymore because bots are now an officially sanctioned replacement for players.
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Nope this sentiment is widely held by the this community almost singularly.
Lets just say that players under 50 hours can be excluded from the system I'm about to explain
- Self unhooking gets removed besides deli
- Players that don't preform conspicuous actions or even X amount of points start racking up a background penalty, Excluding when they are in chase. Lets just go with points because that's likely more consistent and can't be worked around really.
- After enough of this penalty starts to add up, you get a warning and if this behavior is continued then you will receive a suspension.
- After one players is dead the system deactivates for all remaining players.
Consistent afking for either side gets removed from the game. Playing for hatch/gates the entire game would cease to exist. The notion that players will stop acting this way even if the games fundamental problems are fixed is just wrong, it may decrease a bit but it will still happen.
What I just came up with may not be the best way, but a similar thing should be implemented into the game no matter what. I have never been apart of a community so convinced that players should be able to stop playing whenever they want, all the time and with no penalty.
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So how do you ban players that go to gens and then alt tab while their character works on the gen? Even if you can solve that you can't force players to try which means you still lose. You can't win a 3v1 and you can't force players to try. Unless you are talking about banning players that don't do gens? Which I'm all for. Lets ban the players that grief games by not doing the games only objective.
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To be fair even with how bad the bots can be, it's still miles better than losing one teammate. At the very least it's someone else on a gen for some time, and someone who can waste a bit of the killer's time.
Also against stealth killers bots are actually pretty strong. They know where a stealthed Ghostface is at all times, for example.
Yes, the bots aren't great, and I do hope they get improved a lot, but having a bot is still much better than a 'dead' teammate.
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You can still bypass the system by doing totems or afk and alt tab on a gen. If there is a will there is a way. This problem has only been a thing in the history of this game with things like release Spirit or Omega Blink Nurse. The thing is you can't force players to try. If a survivor doesn't want to play that game then the team will lose since it is a 3v1. It will always be a 3v1 and you can't change that outside of radical changes like punishing players that don't do gens.
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"Survivors can play as selfishly or as altruistically as they like'
- BHVR.
...
I'll accept it being removed when we accept killers being able to slug everyone and leave them down needs to go too.
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Ok so then they adapt and the problem still exist. If you start to punish players for afking then they will do a different thing. It is a losing battle that is only won by fixing the core problem. You don't solve this issue unless you find what is causing it. It would be more of a placebo change of yea we're doing something but yet the issue is still there and you didn't fix anything.
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Bots have several glaring issues:
- They're as reliable as nemesis zombies ai, which are notoriously bad at times. They can, and will, get stuck on objects and get caught in infinite loops. And that's without outside influence, they'll do that 100% on their own.
- Bots are programmed to always make the same actions with the same stimulus, which is particularly abusable by actual players. For example, the bots in custom games will avoid a terror radius. So killers who manipulate that fact can cause bots to pace infinitely and do nothing. Which will be extra fun when there's only one survivor and one bot left in the game. It's naive to think that someone won't find a way to exploit the ai like this.
- Bots don't think, have no idea of strategy, and can't coordinate with actual players. Good luck breaking a killers 3 gen (that your bot probably created for you) with a bot teammates that runs at the first sign of the killer.
- You say the bots have wall hacks like that's a good thing. You do realize that's a huge downside, right? Like, actual players can and will use that information against killers in an understandably frustrating way. This isn't just bad for survivors, the system is terrible for the game as a whole.
- This address none of the reasons people DC. And worse, when the first person does disconnect, the remaining survivors have no incentive to stay if a bot is 'just as good as a player' according to the devs.
A system that would be much less abusable would be to just have the survivor's body stay in the match for about 30 seconds after the player disconnects. That preserves killer perks like on hook effects, blood warden, etc. but doesn't turn an asymm pvp game into a clown fiesta.
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I'm typically one who wants to implement features that prevent players from ruining the experience for others, rather than creating incentives to play "more fun."
But this is a game health problem that needs a game health solution.
@Trollinmon is absolutely correct here. You can't bandaid fix this problem by preventing players from hook suiciding. Players who do not want to stay in a game will find other ways to abandon the trial--ways you cannot prevent with any future patch.
Removing self unhook does absolutely nothing to fix the problem.
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I already mentioned that the ai aren't that good, and they're not. They are still far better than just losing a teammate. I don't care if they're awful at looping and go down super fast, they're still doing -something- which is more than we have now where someone DCs and it's basically as if they died.
I also mentioned that I hope they continue to improve the ai so that they're actually more competant, but until we get to that point, if we ever do, I'll still happily take an ai teammate at 5-gens than just losing a teammate altogether.
Also I don't really know what you're solution really solves. The issue with a survivor DCing isn't "oh now the killer won't get Blood Warden or BBQ value', the issue is that now the survivors have basically just lost the game and now they have to play a losing battle. Having a DCed survivor's body hang around for 30 seconds doesnt do anything to solve this.
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And I'm not saying this is the only thing they should do. Obviously there are issues in the game and they need to address those and make DbD as fun and enjoyable as it can be. However, they do also need to make it more annoying and punishable to give up and ruin the game for everyone else.
Even if they fixed the games' various glaring issues overnight and the game was in a much better state, you'd still have people who give up and spoil the fun for everyone else. I really don't understand why people are defending players like that.
Making DCing/suiciding more punishing -would- reduce the amount of quitters in the game. Obviously it wouldn't get rid of them completely, but it's a big issue and something needs to be done about it.
We all know how much DCing spikes whenever they turn the penalty off completely, after all.
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You started off with 'how bad can it be' and I gave you at least 5 ways the bots are actively worse than a dead or missing survivor.
My biggest concern is that this will be the final answer to addressing any actual issues. Implementing bots will just mean that is the answer moving forward, and the reasons for disconnects will continue to go unresolved. This is a 'temporary band aid' fix that will become permanent, and will define how the game is played, especially if the level of disconnects stays the same (although I expect this to make it worse).
The 'body' I mentioned isn't intending to address any of those issues. I expect things like game balance to be improved, overall quality and fun of games to be a focus for the devs, and ideally reduce the disconnects by fixing things.
Adding in bots is just washing their hands of it and literally telling people that if they don't like it they can just leave and the game will take care of it. I find that to be a fairly unhealthy way to address things.
I also find it to be healthy and perfectly fair to try and hold the devs accountable for the state of the game and want them to make it better in general.
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Even if they fixed the games' various glaring issues overnight and the game was in a much better state, you'd still have people who give up and spoil the fun for everyone else.
I definitely agree with this. A large population of players need to walk away from the game right now, and come back in the future if/when the game is right for them.
I don't know if removing self unhook will inhibit rage quitters much, but this also isn't a hill I'm willing to die on. I don't think self unhook brings much to the game to begin with, and I don't believe the game is made any worse without it. 4%ing is exciting, and I know a lot of people would be sad to see it go--even if it is a rare occurence.
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not just that but they also got auto dodge vs projectile killers
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And where did I say you couldn't hold the devs accountable for the state of the game? I know the game has issues and it's in a low-point at the moment and needs some things fixed. The fact is though that until those things get fixed we need something to deal with the rampant disconnects now, and I still think in almost every single game, a poor ai is still leagues better then losing a player completely.
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Jesus Christ, I'm just explaining my thought process. I'm not trying to target or accuse you or anyone of anything implicitly or not.
Like I said, I find that stance to be completely healthy and reasonable.
The only thing you and I seem to disagree on is that the ai is an appropriate stop gap measure. I say it's absolutely not (and to be clear, this isn't saying or implying anything about anyone else's stance).
I've said my peace, and I don't expect anyone to agree with me, as I'm pretty sure I'm one of the only people concerned about the ai answer to this problem. I think it's a terrible idea, I think it's going to cause issues, and I think it's going to be a cause for complaints after it's implemented.
And at this point I'm tired of talking about it, since it's pretty clear this is the direction BHVR wants to go. Nothing I say will change that, so I'm respectfully bowing out of this conversation.
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What I don't get is people who DC on their last hook. They end up loosing out on any points they made in the game. Makes no sense.
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Once again
You are asking for a band-aid instead of focusing on the root of the problem
Why do people die on hook? Thats the first question to be addressed.
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Usually because they're childish and the game isn't going their way and their inflated sense of entitlement lets them believe it's okay to screw over 4 other people.
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Its just a game anyways
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I will use that famous tunneller/camper/slugger quote
"their fun is not my business"
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They can still say the same quote
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Late to this but idk if anyone's suggested this but currently you get what 3-4 chances to unhook yourself? Y not make it so trying to unhook yourself doesn't kill you but your still limited to those 3-4 attempts?
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This might have been said here earlier, but there are too many comments to read, so apologies if this is a repeat.
Removing the 1st hook opportunity to unhook yourself would be the wrong correction to this problem. Especially with the changes that occured a while back with Borrowed Time becoming basekit, sometimes this is the right option. The 1st hook stage should not be altered.
What they could do is remove the skillchecks on the second hook. Then they're forced to endure the full hook.
The problem is if somebody does not want to continue they will always find a way. They just go AFK and wait for the killer to hook them. Of course a killer could see this and force a bleedout, but there's no reward for this (certainly not the reward they'd receive for a sacrifice) and any increase in raising a bleedout to reward the killer with more BP would just create a slug epidemic!
The only way is to make suicide attempts reportable. There are a lot of issues with this too.
My guess is that the only true way to complete this is to give the option to quit and replace themselves with a bot. Only to be applied on the hook. That's a little way off yet, I gather.
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I know I don't know how many times that a Non Camping Killer dosn't even get a chance to leave the hook before someone rushes in and unhooks me. The worst part is I NEVER try and body block the Killer from the Unhooker especially on these scenarios. But somehow the unhooker gets Infront of me and forces me to take the protection hit and lose my BT protection
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I think it isn’t reportable because you can’t really discern the ‘legitimacy’ of someone dying on hook. Are they just bad at hitting skill checks? Are they new and trying to escape (which the user guide does encourage)? Are they irritated because no one saved them in first hook? Were they tunneled? There are just too many variables that would need to be assessed to assign punishment for such a natural feature of the game.
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Literally none of the reasons people DC are being addressed. Bots aren't a solution to anything, they're a band aid.
They're potentially easily exploitable, by both sides, have zero sense of strategy or coordination (and will just feed killers 3 gens, can't wait for that), as well as being prone to any bug/stuck issue that nemesis zombies have.
It'll also make disconnects worse. People who would normally stick out a match with an early DC because they want to be a good teammate likely won't stick around either. If the bot is the officially sanctioned BHVR-approved replacement, then people will likely decide to move on to their next match early, and let the bot be the 'good teammate' instead.
Disclaimer: I don't condone or think people should disconnect from games. I'm just saying what I think human nature will do with this system if implemented.
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