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Solo survivors should have unique resources
I think survivor players when they were playing solo (i.e. no friends or swf) should have some kind of resources that are unique to them, currently, every time that the devs create something to help the solo player, they automatically make the SWF stronger too, because of that I think that some things should be different for both sides,
The intuitive HuD for example should be something that SWF shouldn't have access to, since they play in communication most of the time, if they want to have more resources besides communication they should use the perks, after all they are for that. could have other types of additions, such as those who play in SWF only have access to level 1 and 2 of the perks, level 3 would be exclusive to players solos, they could even have different functions in level 3 perks, like the Mettle of man in level 3 could give a point of protection for the player who starts the game as an obsession, but this would only be given if the player was playing alone, but it's worth remembering that all of these are examples, nothing I'm saying needs to be added in practice, but they should have features that only favor solo players
before someone who plays with friends complains about it, until today SWF has never had any kind of disadvantage, while the solo player always suffers from game changes, when a killer is buffed or a surv perk is nerfed, the SWF don't even feel much difference, but the solo player feels the full impact of these changes, in theory, the solo player only gets nerf, so it's deserved it has exclusive resources, Nerfar killer and buff surv or vice versa is not balancing the game because of the strongest part of the game who has never been nerfed until today
But remember that this is just an example and my opinion, I would like to know your opinion, what could be improved in solo surv and be nerfed in SWF without spoiling the fun of the matches?
Comments
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Kindred basekit for anybody queue up solo is a start
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Basekit 👏 kindred, 👏 basekit 👏 deja vu 👏 and 👏 basekit 👏 bond 👏 for 👏 solo 👏 survivors.
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Isn't that just punishing people for having friends? Not every swf uses comms you know.
This kinda thing is going to promote lobby hopping and the matchmaking gets screwed by dodging enough as it is
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"We arent swf, we are just 4 random dudes lobby dodging till all four of us, who just randomly happen to be all on each of all our friendlists, are in the same lobby to get that additional buff. Please ignore that we're on discord too."
Did happen before, will happen again if they make boni for solo or penalties for swf.
Solo and swf are the same character ingame. The devs chose not to start splitting the survivor character into solo and swf, because for all those "differences" between the two, the devs literally have no way to fix the players' ######### attitude towards stranger teammates or tweaking third party voicecomms.
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No, it’s not punishing people for having friends. It’s balancing the game in order to make it more fair for people who don’t have the advantage of outside communication. That communication and the resulting coordination is more than enough of an advantage if the devs ever decide to restrict in game information for SWF.
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Lobby hoping to play with your buddies worked 6/7 years ago when people could switch regions on steam and the playerbase was much smaller.
Good luck trying this today.
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I honestly think survivors should see eachother at all times,it's the biggest buff they can give to solos.This is something 4 man SWFs on comms have already.
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Solo queue is not the problem. The problem is survivors that won't pull their weight. And you can't fix that no matter how you buff solo survivors. You only break the game in the process by making good groups much stronger and leaving bad groups in the dust.
That baby Claudette, that is busy self-caring in her corner is not going to be a better team mate, if you give her access to better perks. And if she miraculously does, isn't that kind of unfair?
Survivors have enough hand holding in the game now and there are perks that help with solo queue issues specifically.
When you try to help solo queue, where do you draw the line? Is a 2 people SWF and 2 solos still considered solo queue? What about 3 people in a SWF and 1 solo? Or 2 duos? What if they don't communicate via Discord?
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You can say it's for balance and to make it fair but at the end of the day you have basekit features taken away solely because you decided to play with friends. If you have a 2 man swf you lose coordination with half your team and your entire team if you don't end up using voicechat. That is undeniably being punished for playing with friends.
Why would i still use the swf option then? It just handicaps me for no reason other then the assumption that we are going to go navy seals on comms. Why shouldn't my friend and me then hop lobbies untill we are together in soloq so we can have the benefit of both the base kit features and swf. I know people will do this cause that's what they did before SWF was introduced.
Taking features away because you want to play with friends is a horrible idea that will just drive people away.
If you give kindred basekit to soloq you might as well give it to swf as well. If they use comms they don't learn anything they couldn't tell eachother and if they don't they don't get punished for no reason
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Swf is truly the bane of dbd existence. Playing solo gives the killer a really huge advantage but at the same time trying to buff anything for survivors will quickly get abused by sweaty swfs which sucks but it's how the game is built. So long as there are swfs there will always be imbalance
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Yes, I thought about that too, that's why I asked for your suggestion, not every SWF is strong and not every swf plays using communication, even when I play with a friend of mine we don't use communication, but even so, if the game put the weaker players against weaker killers, the game would be fairer in that part, but that would be another subject about mmr, here we are talking about balancing suggestions between solo player and swf
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Solo Q will never be as strong as SWF that is a fact.
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No, restricting certain aspects of the game when in a SWF is not a horrible idea nor is it punishing people for playing with friends. It is finally balancing the game to make if fair for everyone. What you lose in restrictions you make up with out of game communication and being able to pick your teammates, knowing you can rely on them and not have to worry about being paired with bad players. You can scream PUNISHMENT all you want, it doesn’t make it so.
You should be choosing to play SWF because you want to play with your friend and be able to pick your teammates not not rely on randoms that you may or may not be matched with. Not because you have the option to tilt the match in your favor and get features that the game isn’t balanced around.
You can hop lobbies all you want. The game isn’t what it once was, odds are you’ll end up queuing up as a swf because it’ll take too long to get matched up with them.
You choosing to play chill is your choice. You’re handicapping yourself. And if you are playing chill, then the restrictions that will apply when you queue up as a swf shouldn’t matter since you’re not interested in playing competitively.
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They just need to get their MMR and matchmaking to do what they claim it's supposed to do and it would be ok.
I've died every single game today. The problem is not the killers, the killers were mostly ridiculous bad, including a huntress tossing her hatchet in a wall while I was walking five meters in front of her and not even attempted to juke in any way. She got her 4k because my teammates still managed to be way, way worse and were allergic to gens. She finally got me because I chose to protect someone else and then I got camped, outplayed I guess. She wouldn't have gotten me in a regular chase.
Such bad killers are perfectly beatable without any extra information or additional solo help. I don't need to be high MMR, I don't need to be able to go against the best killers, I'll happily take these, just give me teammates that touch gens and are able to escape a huntress who misses every hatchet.
I'm currently watching the rest of another match play out. I'm glad I ran up to the killer and killed myself because nobody touched gens. It's been going on for 5+ minutes, nobody's doing anything, they're hiding in bushes or cleansing dull totems to avoid getting bored. No chases because killer can't find anyone. If nobody touches gens, Kindred doesn't help. If my teammates are just sitting in bushes, I will still die every game because I'm the only survivor ever seen by the killer.
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Who says anything about playing chill? There are other reasons why people are restricted from using voice chat.
If people have kids and a baby is sleeping close to them they can't talk. Is the choice of having a child also handicapping themself?
Hell with that logic why bother changing anything at all. If you play soloq you are handicapping yourself and the lack of communications shouldn't matter since you're not interrested in playing competitively right?
At the end of the day giving kindred to solo only or giving kindred to everybody solves the same problem. As swf on comms has that information anyway.
Taking it away from swf seems just spitefull and is a massive feelbad mechanic.
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The fact that kindred isn't basekit for people not playing in a group is still crazy to me. SWFs get this by default. It would eliminate A LOT of scenarios where no one goes for the unhook and someone ends up going to stage 2.
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How is making the game balanced for everyone spiteful? Sure, you may lose something as a SWF is the game limits information, but you gain a lot more in return. I assumed that your reasoning to play in a SWF wasn’t for an in game advantage but because you simply want to play with your friend. If that’s not the case, then your stance isn’t about balance and more about keeping SWF unbalanced and not to make things better for killers or solo. I mean, your whole argument is you shouldn’t be punished for playing with friends, which you wouldn’t be, the game is being balanced around the fact that you have more coordination and communication. That isn’t punishment, no matter how hard you cry it is.
Someone having children isn’t the games problem, that’s their problem. It’s the same for people who have spotty internet. Don’t play online multiplayer games if you can’t commit and not handicap your team. If you choose to do so, don’t complain that your experience can’t be the same as everyone else’s.
People play solo queue because that’s what the base game is. It’s what the devs balance for. You can still play competitively without outside resources and the devs can adjust things when it skews too much to once side.
Playing with friends is not enough of a reason to not make things fair for everyone else. You can’t have your cake and eat it too. Well, you can in Dbd because the devs know swf don’t care about fairness or balance and that they’d whine and review bomb the game when they no longer are a powerful as they are. So I guess you shouldn’t worry!
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I wouldnt separate SoloQ from SFW technically. I would vote for making changes that would bring SoloQ closer to SFW level.
- See each other perks
- In-Game Intention Communication (I am going for save, I am going to repair, I am going to search exit doors etc)
- Kindred basekit
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This suggestion is kinda speculatory unless we get bHVR to spill the beans about soloQ vs. SWF again.
idd like to get a word on how the new HUD info worked and improved the game, answering these questions.
- Current SWF / SoloQ winrate difference?
- what has HUD info changed?
- Are there any next steps?
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I think you're taking games a bit too seriously... ensuring you have a stable connection to play is understandable but to say that people who have children can go screw themself is quite the take...
I don't play in SWF. I just have basic human empathy and understand that you are screwing over more people who didn't rely on voice comms in swf. Not to mention what a shoot your own foot bussiness idea that would be. I'm all for bringing solo closer to swf level but taking away base features for people who play with friends is not the way to do it.
Name me one succesfull game that takes features away solely for picking the option of playing with friends.
Nobody does it cause it's a stupid idea that will just push people away.
Especially in DbD case. SwF with comms main advantage is information so giving that information to all doesn't help them one bit. There, game is more fair for everyone without flipping off people who play with friends and don't use comms.
And that is exactly what they did with the hud update.
I'm not even sure what you are trying to accomplish. You say that swf with comms needs penalties cause they are so unfair and unbalanced but are arguing for a change that will push more people into using comms with swf.
If you add basekit features to solo q and not swf then people who played swf with comms will still play swf with comms. Some might try to game the system by lobby hopping. and people who used to play swf with no comms will feel forced to play with comms to not be handicapped.
You're litteraly making more people play the thing you hate and allowing a way for swf with comms to sneak in these benefits anyway making them even stronger. That's just very backwards thinking.
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I don’t hate SWF, so please don’t put words in my mouth or make assumptions about me.
Pushing more people to SWF would be a good thing, maybe then the devs would stop dragging their feet and actually balance the game around it. And no, I’m not taking the game too seriously, though I’d argue that you are, acting as if you’re being punished if the devs were to restrict certain thing in Swf for the sake of balance.
Ruin and Undying were nerfed. People purchased specific killers for those perks and expected them to remain powerful, yet the devs deemed it fit to nerf them for the sake of balance. Was that punishing the players who used/relied on those perks or was it just balancing the game for the sake of the majority of the player base?
Same for DS and Dead Hard, we’re survivors who used them punished when they got nerfed? No, everything that was changed was for the sake of the playerbase. It’s no difference if the devs some limitations on SWF. You can call it whatever you want, doesn’t change the fact that balancing the game to make things fair is not a punishment.
Also, you not liking an idea doesn’t make it stupid.
There are three things the devs can do:
- They can balance around SWF
- They can restrict some aspects of SWF (removes features or restrict item/perk repetition)
- They can continue to ignore SWF and keep on letting Solo Queue and Killers stay frustrated with the game and eventually leave the game.
You can argue that changing SWFs would leave the game, but since everyone believes they’re just a small percentage of the player base, it wouldn’t be much of a loss, would it? Unless they’re more numerous than what everyone really thinks.
Anyways, my point isn’t what is best for the game, my point is very simple- Changes to SWF for the sake of balance is not punishing people who choose to play in one. You are still playing the game and you still have the advantage of instant information, coordination and having the ability to not have solo queue potatoes on your team. The three of those things are more than enough of a compensation to have a few in game restrictions.
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Survivors have enough hand holding in the game now and there are perks that help with solo queue issues specifically.
yes but you should not need equip perks to play the survivor role. that is the issue. still think global bond would be good change. The UI does help for some stuff but seeing teammate aura is just better.
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1) BHVR can just add code to prevent survivors from randomly matching with other survivors they’ve recently matched with, or people on their friend list
2) BHVR can add a random delay, so that players that hit the ready button at exactly the same time, won’t have a higher chance of being matched with each other.
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"Well, you can in Dbd because the devs know swf don’t care about fairness or balance and that they’d whine and review bomb the game when they no longer are a powerful as they are."
I'm sorry but this sounds bitter as heck. You can't pull the don't make assumptions about me card after saying stuff like this.
The analogy of the perks also doesn't hold up. There is one thing that you are just missing about this whole argument.
Ruin was nerfed for everybody, Undying was nerfed for everybody. Same with DH and DS. There is no being punished here cause everyone has the same treatment.
With OP's suggestion part of the survivor playerbase gets buffs and while others get completely screwed out of everything. That's where the feeling of punishment is. If you are a swf player who doesn't use comms you just get screwed either way. The playerbase has to be treaten equally.
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It's not a problem with the game. You don't need to run these perks. They just happen to help with these specific issues. If I could be bothered to keep track of my fellow survivors I wouldn't use Bond myself. But I can't. So I'll stick with it.
Global Bond as a base kit addition is an absolutely atrocious idea. Because it also tells you what ressources are depleted, the killer's location and what gens are worked on. I use a build with 2 perks only for that and the value I get out of it is insanse. Bond + Open Handed + Windows of Opportunity is a great combination. Try it.
You cannot have that much information at 0 cost. The game should not play itself. You should still have to keep track of some things yourself. This would be even worse than SWFs. Because SWFs can only communicate approximate positions and at least they have to do something to spread that information as opposed to the game just handing it to them.
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Sorry, emotion doesn’t always transfer well through text. I’m not bitter about what I wrote, it’s just the truth. When it comes to balance or money, gaming corporations will always choose money. It’s a fact that is a little frustrating but still a fact nonetheless. Doesn’t mean I hate SWF and definitely doesn’t give you enough reasoning to assume that about me.
Limiting SWF will make the game better for everyone just as the nerfs to perks. It would finally allow the devs to bring Blight and Nurse down a lever or two while making weaker characters a little better and make maps a bit more fair.
Again, balancing SWF by restricting a few things isn’t punishment. Just because some may view or feel that it is doesn’t make it so.
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but you do not know where the killer is. only approximate position. knowing what resources are depleted is why a lot of people use window of opportunity. you need that to not run in deadzones when you get chased by the killer. knowing what gens to push is also something you need to know to strategically loop the killer away from teammates.
I use bond myself but the issue is that if i do not select the perk, I am putting myself at big disadvantage in soloq because I am not playing swf. so you get reduced to 3 perks. if you use window, now your reduced to 2 perk slots. your indirectly imposing mandatory perk to play survivor. i think you should be able to play survivor well with 0 perks. that is just my opinion.
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I mean I’ve played with friends before but we don’t use communication. We just play together to have fun. I don’t think that’s a problem…
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In a way, I agree... but in a another... I think they need one more hand holding, but not in a form of a perk as a basekit.
I would simply just add a communication wheel, just so I can send a message to my teammates about what I am doing and what they need to be doing. It can be simple pre recorded messages like "Hey, I am doing a Genator!" "The Killer is chasing me, go work on Generators or go save the teammate on hook!" Stuff like that.
Personal, I don't like good swfs stacking meta perks myself; but I also despise bad teammates whom are not pulling their weight and dragging everyone in the game down by playing badly or rage quiting on first down/hook.
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The game has been punishing people for not having friends to play DbD with for SEVEN years...
Post edited by Nos37 on2 -
Then have systems in place to prevent excessive lobby dodging (a queue timeout that doesn't show up until after the 3rd dodge and stacks up minutes instead of hours like disconnect penalties do), and to remove the bonus if the same players are matched together repeatedly match after match (a very small few will get hit in the crossfire from coincidence).
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That is something that I completely agree with. And I don't consider that hand holding but a tool. It's not gonna do anything for you but you have to use it in order to raise your efficiency. I think that could really improve the solo queue experience a bit. And remind some people that they do not play a 1v1.
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Balancing SWF by restricting things is punishment. Just because you feel like it isn't doesn't make it not.
See what a pointless argument that is.
You have a advantage, it gets taken away because you choose the option to play with friends cause of potential third party communications that you might not want or are able to use. That is what is proposed and that's a fact about it.
Getting advantages taken away for another advantage you might very well not have is being punished. There is no denying that.
Untill you stop thinking that your oppinions are facts and you actually come up with a fact that it isn't being punished your arguments hold no ground
You keep saying it's balances the game better for everyone and i specifically say it doesn't. For SWF who don't use voice chat it doesn't make it better.
Changing soloQ sucks to SWF without comms suck is not a solution. It's shifting the problem.
There is zero reason not to include swf in buffs to soloq's communication cause for people who do use voice comms it wouldn't matter anyway. They already have that information
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I do agree with trying to mitigate the power difference between SWF and SoloQ.... I have pretty strong opinions on SWF, however to keep on track, I want to slow people down a bit, as I for one really like soloQ.
There's a creeping dread, intensity and nervous uncertainty I dont feel in SWF... the fact my opponent is human intelligent makes this game really intimidating sometimes (and frustrating ofc).
While I do want to buff solo players... I dont want to flood them with basekit buffs to bring them to SWF comms level, because that imperfect knowledge for your decisions is part of the skill expression for solo Q and is one of the reasons the atmosphere is so good. If my whole screen is illuminated with aura reading all the time, the game loses something.... and the value of acquiring that information requires taking perks that protect me more directly out of my build.
Ideas I've liked thus far are:
- Allow survivors to share their perks in lobby.
- More gestures for survivors to help non verbal comms in game.
A lot of people suggest Kindred basekit, and this I'm not so sure. Pure information perks can be quite powerful, and Kindred is no exception. That's why a lot of Solo players and casual SWFs run it. My issue with it is as stated above, it removes the element of sacrifice in your build for that information... and encourages everyone to take more selfish, self preservation perks, and samey builds.
I personally want to incentivise people to play Solo Q more, imo Solo is how the game is supposed to feel.... so I'd be very wary of buffing aura reading into survivor kits.
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Balance to make things fair ≠ punishment.
Receiving a handicap because someone is just too good when facing others ≠ punishment.
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So you're forcing people to use voice chat when playing in a SWF, in order to make up for the lack of resources they have access to?
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Yea using voice chat in a SWF is unheard of, nobody uses that
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I generally don't.
I either play with the odd friend without voice chat, or when I do play with a larger group of 3/4 with voice chat, we talk so much crap it actively makes us perform worse. I genuinely escape more when I play solo.
That's the problem. SWF isn't a guaranteed advantage. It's only the potential for better coordination, and not everyone plays or even wants to play like a super optimal comp team.
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I wouldnt mind a ping system in the game for some general communication without the need for voice.
Most people who play SWF do use voice chat i reckon and for most people they escape more in a SWF, up to a 15% higher escape rate according to the devs.
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Exactly. The only fair way to buff solo/non-voice is to provide additional info that's superfluous to voice comms.
More built in communication tools beyond point and beckon, some kind of ping system ('killer instinct' to locate other survivors for instance), and more HUD info is the best way.
The HUD actions already went a long way towards that. I'm hoping that once the anticamping system comesout, we'll be able to tell from the HUD whether or not the killer is within 16m of the hook.
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And recieving a handicap others don't get with no upside= punishment
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Incorrect. A punishment is an act of retribution for committing an offense. No one is committing an offense when playing as a SWF and the devs wouldn’t be retaliating against anyone by enforcing restrictions.
It’s more of an equivalent exchange since you gain things as a SWF that Solo Queue doesn’t.
Handicaps ≠ punishment.
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No, people choosing to not use outside communication are making the conscious choice to handicap themselves.
They still get the ability to choose their teammates, which is an advantage that Solo Queue will never have.
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BHVR: Punishes Solo Q for 7 years
Everyone:
Solo player: Maybe they could give us a little-
SWFs: WHY ARE YOU PUNISHING PEOPLE WITH FRIENDS??????
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So then players choosing to play solo queue instead of SWF are making the conscious decision to handicap themselves, and don't need any additional advantages?
It seems like you've just cherrypicked one subset of handicapped players that you feel need buffs, at the expense of other players, who may also be handicapped.
The problem is that the divide is not between SWF and Solo Queue, or even between Voice comms and No voice comms, but between Highly coordinated and Uncoordinated, and while they usually overlap, they don't definitively mean the same thing.
You are simply writing off those who don't conform because you're not one of them and so you're not concerned.
Post edited by Seraphor on0 -
The vast majority of my survivor games are solo queue.
I don't want to be handicapped for the few times I actually play with friends. Doing so would probably drive them away altogether or have us just playing solo and giving up on team play.
This is not the solution.
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You are correct that the problem is between highly coordinated and the uncoordinated, but you’re not correct that comms have nothing to do with it. Comms give a massive advantage to people who use them, saying otherwise is rather ignorant. Teams wouldn’t be able to perform certain plays or be as efficient without the communication.
And no, players choosing Solo Queue in general are not handicapping themselves since the Devs balance the game around them, where players have limited access to information. They’re playing the game how it’s supposed to be played.
The ones who are handicapped in this game are killers who have to face SWF on coms and Solo Queue players who get paired up with Duos and Trios since the SWFs will usually prioritize their friends over the randoms.
And no, I’m not cherry picking anything. My stance is that if the devs are okay with the power level of SWF using comms, then they should balance the rest of the game around it. They should bring up Solo Queues strength (with the use of information) without allowing SWFs to take advantage of that information to become even stronger.
In the end, it still wouldn’t be a punishment.
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You are correct that the problem is between highly coordinated and the uncoordinated, but you’re not correct that comms have nothing to do with it. Comms give a massive advantage to people who use them, saying otherwise is rather ignorant. Teams wouldn’t be able to perform certain plays or be as efficient without the communication.
I'm literally saying that it's not as straight forward as "comms = coordination" and your reply is "uh yes it is duh"? And I'm the ignorant one?
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Exactly... As much as Kindred Basekit sounds a whole lot like a healthy information Basekit change to many soloQ survivors; it won't Exactly help every soloQ survivors if they don't use this tool to their advantage. Sometimes, certain soloQ are too "immersive" or bad actors and will simply ignore a very important situation despite being giving the best information perk in their basekit. Usually, this is not a problem with SWFs as you can reliable tell your teammates what's happening and ask them to do things; in soloQ, you simply cannot relie on a bunch of "Rando" to pull their leg and get their game together like a proper swf team. That is why the key issues is simply communication, not information perk; as I rather be able to tell or even yell at my teammates to do what needs to be done right or wrong; rather then expect them to waste time thinking or hesitant on important decisions in game when the situation is complicated and dire.
Voice proximity or simply implement a party voice communications would ruin the immersive atmosphere the game devs were trying to avoid; so that is why I propose some sort of Communication Wheel like Fortnite and Overwatch does. When you activate it with a button, it pops up a wheel with a good list of callouts and describes their own/others actions; or asking questions and providing a response of that question.
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I never once alluded to you ever being ignorant. I don’t appreciate you implying that I am. We can agree to disagree but we don’t have to insult each other over it.
And yea, it is straight forward. At the highest play, SWF wouldn’t be able to make some of the plays and be as efficient and coordinated as they are without the near instant information that is relayed over comms. That doesn’t mean that 4 good Solo players could be efficient and coordinated, it’s just they can never be as good as those with instant communication.
Anyways, I’m not here to argue with people (especially with people who can’t respect me) over what’s the best course of action when it comes to balance. I’m here just to state that balancing SWF by limiting them isn’t punishment.
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