Myers feels bad to play
Shape aka Myers is so weak killer and power so underwhelming.
Ghostface can stalk multiple survivors, Myers can’t.
GF can stalk unlimited times, Myers can’t
GF can be stealth while survivors are exposed, Myers can’t
GF stalk is SO MUCH FASTER and EVEN FASTER WHEN LEANING, Myers can’t
GF add ons are good in general, but Myers almost all increase the time to get Tiers up for extra 10-30 seconds
Myers is the oldest licensed killer, can you please give him some love?
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Myers stalk is basically as fast as Ghostface when you are close enough, if you play Myers wrong and stalk from way too far then yes it is slow.
Myers just works differently since everyone is getting exposed. Also the running out of power is an outdated mechanic, I agree, but then again I play him quite frequently and never ever have I ran out of stalk... You can get up to 7 t3s and I basically never needed that many...
It s true hat can't be stealth while they are exposed but then again you only use t3 when you re gonna get the hit right now and until then you have a really small heartbeat, getting a 2nd down in the same t3 is nice but the first one is what matters.
Yeah his addons should get reworked to some degree, especially the movements peed while stalking, since it is entirely useless, but while we re at it he also has tombstone which is busted and should be removed (the purple tombstone piece) the iri one also stupid in my opinion but not even close to the other one.
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The main issue is Myers execution must still exist because of associated achievements... but it comes from a completely different time of the game where a Mori was just a straight up kill that had no hook requirement or a 1 hook requirement.
This makes his execution add-ons a problem, cause they are designed around a game that no longer exists. They NEED to be brought up in line with modern Moris.
I would modify his execution add-on to work something like: -
Judith Myers Tomestone
- After 6 hooks grants the ability to kill healthy, injured or dying Survivors while in Evil Within III.
- Increases the amount of Evil required to reach Evil Within III for the first time by +150 % (+7.5 Stalk points).
- Reduces the Movement speed of The Shape by -5 % while in Evil Within III.
Tomestone Piece
- After 6 hooks grants the ability to kill healthy, injured or dying Survivors while in Evil Within III.
- Killing a Survivor drains the power of Evil Within III, resetting it to Evil Within II.
- Increases the amount of Evil required to reach Evil Within III for the first time by +100 % (+ 5 Stalk points).
Differences in bold. The numbers are open to tweeks ofc, but these changes should mean: -
- Survivors get a better experience by making Myers play the normal game for a while to fulfil the hook requirement, while slowing down his progress to his mid/late game pressure.
- 6 hooks for the Judith Myers Tombstone Iri means he's already earned the victory. You took a huge slowdown, especially when combining this with the permanent tier 3 add-on, but still got great pressure and should be afforded the ability to basically clean up. As such I reduced the movement speed slowdown.
- 6 hooks for the Tombstone Piece means means he has got a commanding lead, and if he picks his target right he can bypass health states for a quick elimination to close it out, but he can't do it out of the gate, so removes the busted power this add on brings.
- Remove the hiding in lockers as "counterplay". Being forced to accept a hook because you don't want to be executed is just silly. It's only a thing because Myers is not really playing the typical game by going for executions rather than hooks, which the previous points hopefully address.
- Allows other buffs elsewhere in his kit because this instant execution option isn't available from very early on.
- Retains the ability to get the Achievement/Trophy, keeping it challenging, but also not making it a stars align pain in the ass challenge.
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After SIX hooks? WITH a +150% increase in stalk AND a speed penalty? Let's just go ahead and make Evil Incarnate impossible to achieve.
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All M1 Killers feel bad to play, thank the Devs for ruining the game with perks like MFT.
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Yeah fair point, I was being conservative. You can lower/remove penalties as needed, its the concept that's important.
I did consider 5 hooks because although thats not the mathematical modpoint, for intents and purposes of the game, it is mid point due to the fact the last survivor is dead regardless... but I didn't want to go too hard because:
- You execute literally anyone you can catch from that point on via any means, meaning you noo longer get messed over by accidently swinging or locker hopping.
- You can slug and deny hatch for the Achievement, which was always a serious gamble before.
- I was operating on the assumption this frees up base kit buffs elsewhere now Tomestone Piece isn't busted AF
The point was to reduce the oppressive nature of this part of his kit, to allow other changes to be made 😉
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To keep things unbalanced because of steam achievement seems to be a bad idea, they removed the dmogorgon adept and put something else in, they could do the same with the myers mori achievement, I don't see a problem there.
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I really hope they buff Myers because he is my favorite killer, but feels so bad to play with. Ideas like these are nice and I hope the devs make him more balanced, but knowing how they treat characters like Myers, Demogorgon and Nightmare I won’t hold my breath.
Ghostface addons rework was nice, and balancing Sadako, so kudos for that.
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Even without MFT, the gameplay experience as an M1 killer is still quite frustrating. However, MFT indeed caused many M1 killers, including my friends, to quit this game. I feel like I'm also on the verge of giving up on this game. By the way, I'm a Legion main.
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that is terrible. myer's is all about stalking someone and mori them. they trying to make him as canonical as possible. in practice, myers should not be playing around hooks. he should be playing around stalking. tombstone and judith tombstone is what makes myer's unique.
it should be based around stalking survivors to red while survivor does not notice you. if you stalk them long enough. you can kill them with 0 hooks.
i think his add-on should be base-kit but he would need some changes to base-kit to make any sense. for example, tier 1/2/3 should be manual so you can excessive stalk in tier 2 for the mori. without manual activation, your TR would blow your cover for stalking.
another change that would need happen is that when Myer's is selected as killer, the obsession icon is not shown to the survivors. an idea could be that when he mori's someone, a random person becomes obsession and that person is fully stalked so you can instant-kill them.
this would allow him to mori entire team because manually stalking entire team as fully depleted would take too long. T1/T2/T3/T4/T5 should be like passive bonuses. like the more he stalks, the stronger he becomes in the chase. perhaps he starts at normal m/s, normal lunge, normal vaulting speed, but every tier up to say 5 tiers... he gains more lunge, more lunge speed, more movement speed, more vault speed and more pallet break speed. I think that is kinda what the design they were going for him. stalk as side instant-kill mechanic with passive bonus that build up as he stalks. he kinda has that old sadako problem of add-on dependent + not that good power.
these are just ideas for how myer's could work.
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Killers that just ignore hooks are always problematic and being able to just insta kill someone is always miserable, it does not really matter if it is lore accurate, if it's miserable to play against it should not be implemented...
I however like the idea of giving him more bonuses for more stalking, that would be way better.
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Hear hear. Especially range killer, good luck against survivors that basically match your speed and you're not in an unobstructed map.
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Myers is pretty strong against average survs.
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shrug.... but that is what makes myer's feel unique. i mean what, all you need to do is pay attention to the surroundings....
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I understand the sentiment, I'm a big fan of classic slasher films and ofc am a fan of Halloween... but despite that this is about gameplay first and foremost, and the issue I take with this statement is execution is not even Myer's, or any other killer's, default gameplay; hooks are the primary goal.
Executions are ofc part of the game, but for nearly all executions you start to see a pattern. Either the threat of them is a natural slowdown in the killers kit, or they are an alternative flavour for the final hook only available to the killer towards the end game. That's why most are controlled by hooks or similar: -
- Mori offerings
- Pyramid Heads Final Judgement
- Devour Hope
- Rancor (all gates powered instead)
The only exceptions are Pig and Sadako, who similar to devour hope, are forcing a side quest on survivors that if they ignore, will result in their deaths. In both cases, you shouldn't be relying on getting your power based execution, you should still be primarily going for hooks, and executions come if survivors don't deal with your natural slowdown.
That leaves us with add-on execution Myers, who takes longer to charge his power, and then once charged, starts deleting people from the game. You can argue that this is slowdown, the need to keep avoiding him and breaking line of sight keeps survivors off gens... but the exposure does this already. The execution has no end game control element here, no real chases or looping until it becomes 1 mistake = dead, no healing, no unhooking, no flashlight saves, no hook sabotage, no protection hits. Instead we get... accept the hook by hiding in lockers... yay...
All the game becomes is gen progress vs. stalk progress, and who gets there fast is probably gonna win. This is what makes it cheap and frustrating to face... even if Myers isn't that strong. Its unique... but unique because its bad is not a asset to be proud of.
I know I can't speak for everyone, but I myself find Myers boring as snot to play this way as well. Any kills I get I don't really feel like I earned, and ultimately I enjoy the chase and mind games throughout the whole game that I get with standard Myers, that becomes sorely missed when I'm just looking to kill each player as fast as possible. It's like tunneling on crack.
I am on board for basekit execution, as long as it still leaves way for the game to still have the normal gameplay elements.
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All the game becomes is gen progress vs. stalk progress, and who gets there fast is probably gonna win. This is what makes it cheap and frustrating to face... even if Myers isn't that strong. Its unique... but unique because its bad is not a asset to be proud of.
Oh I completely agree. a long time ago. I said that Myer's is lowest skill-floor character in the game. it is because his gameplay doesn't take any effort to be good at. His entire win condition is PWYF. Prior to Nemesis's release, finding obsession as Myer's was difficult because there was no tracking perks to find obsession. You had to wander around aimlessly finding obsession to get 15% haste bonus from PWYF. Now a days, you can just put Lethal pursuer+PWYF and immediately find the obsession. Once you finish tier the perk up, you can just brute force any stalking on any survivor as slow movement has little meaning when you have this giant amount of haste. As soon as you acquire t2 to 99%, most will just try to run away from generators as they instantly get deleted. you repeat that process with another survivor until 2 survivor remain. After that you down 1 survivor and camp the hook.
it is not very engaging mori's. the build-up of it is not really there. you don't feel like you earned the mori. you feel like you got mori because game said you get mori's. I think it is same problem why people dislike head-pop pig. it is that weird lack of input for high reward.
I know I can't speak for everyone, but I myself find Myers boring as snot to play this way as well. Any kills I get I don't really feel like I earned, and ultimately I enjoy the chase and mind games throughout the whole game that I get with standard Myers, that becomes sorely missed when I'm just looking to kill each player as fast as possible. It's like tunneling on crack.
I agree. I do not find Myer's engaging to play. I kind of feel same way about Pig and her jigsaws. her jigsaw are like tunneling on crack. At the same time, I can somewhat sympathize with myer's that run said add-on and Pig players that tunnel. their killer is not particular good at the chase and they do not have many redeeming qualities outside of that. Myer's ability is almost designed for gen-rushing. in theory, he's suppose to be a killer that has slow start and by the end of the game, he has unbeatable end game. It is just that at base-kit, I do not think he expresses an unbeatable end-game. His unbeatable end-game is mostly that cheesy mori strategy that I describe in paragraph 1. I think he was designed at a very early stage of dbd where most player were not that great at the game. the idea of unlimited instant downs looks like unbeatable feet. I guess he makes new player feel good because... they think they defeated the craziest killer of all time. In reality, Plague and Legion are killer that keep entire team injured for entire trial and being injured is barely drawback to a well-seasoned player.
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Too true, you hit the nail, Myers is a fascinating snapshot of DBD design.
His power fits him wonderfully well so I don't think anyone wants to mess with it too much, but without his execution add-ons, he is an inferior Ghostface in almost every way.... weaker stealth with a more difficult to trigger power when you need it
Basekit execution is a solution I prefer to remove that add-on reliance, but execution shouldnt be the balancing component. Though it is weaker, the more I consider options, the more I come to think Evil Within as it is, is largely fine at realising the unique feel of Myers... so I'd leave EW as it is, but...
I'd be tempted to add tokens to EW with your "scaling him into your late game monster" point with some kind of condition. I want to say hooks... which is probably right... if a little boring. Whatever it is the execution in EW3 comes as part of the progress of those marks, along with the stat boosts you mention.
However you do it, I think my general point is stalk time should not be your execution trigger.
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he is an inferior Ghostface in almost every way..
I think he has advantages. one advantage he has is that he cannot be broken out of stalking. The other advantages is that he can use perks that surpress his TR in EV3 to emulate the 99% mark GF gameplay. Myer's is in a better spot than he ever has been for m1 killer. He might not emulate being a late game killer but he does have some perk synergy to make his gameplay relevant. for that reason, I don't think he needs any changes. his mori is strong gimmick and it wins like 99% of games. his base-kit is not that great but smart perk synergy can make his power more effective.
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I think the best way to put it is that he feels outdated. He's the product of an era that we've long improved upon, but he's been kind of left behind with it.
Especially his add-ons. Tombstones, fun and satisfying though they are, have no place in this game.
I hope we get a Myers rework soon but between new chapters and the fact that Skull Merchant is apparently next on their list, I'm not holding out hope.
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This isn't a good argument though. It's the same reason Trapper and Clown suck — perks and add-ons can only do so much for a weak base kit. And more so, imo he's just boring. Fun to play against if it's a good player, but playing as him is just so dull.
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I think myer's fun is same as ghostface's fun. it is the action of combining instant down+undetectable. I think ghostface is suppose to be better at 99% instant down+undetectable play-style but he kinda feels like he works hard to achieve it. Myer's niche is 99% instant kill mori. both of those designs are inherent somewhat evil in design in the sense that if they are strong killers, they're not fun to play against from survivor's perceptive. the undetectable into instant down is kinda kept in its mediocre to avoid major complaints about it. you will either love the thrill of being jump-scared or really dislike stealth overall. It is same reason why many player dislike hit & run wraith because it also aims to do that instant down into undetectable gameplay with usage of anti-heal perks.
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Admittedly I haven't played him since the perk rework, and I have heard (and can see) that new Coup de Grace and Thrilling Tremours are absolutely bonkers on him... Would you say he is strong enough outside of Tombstone Piece with this perk reliance?
There is a part of me wondering if the current Mori should just be base kit active on Death Hook while in EW3 and call it a night.
Have the Tomestone Piece/JMT add-ons add additonal stalk per survivor, as well as simply allowing you to do it on dying survivors too without needing an offering... obviously the charge times would be drastically reduced or even removed. I don't think anyone would find that unfair. The fact you can go for an exposed stab and instant kill to avoid any saves is not especially strong, but is sufficient as a benefit.
Tomestone Piece: Having that benefit at the expense of getting knocked out of EW3 seems fair for a purple.
JMT: The better version of tombstone piece... though as an iri it probably needs more... but you could basically do anything to this and all problems are solved to my mind.
Fragrant Tuft probably doens't need to change at all, as perma EW3 is a fair trade off for 200% required stalk.
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yes, trail of torment and coup are good on myer's. previously they were not very good perks. their drawbacks were too weak to be considered by killer players. If you want exaggerate myer's kit, The perk to change is furtive chase. it is a perk that is suppose to lower your terror radius every time you hook obsession. the only problem is that the perk ... only works inside chase. this is to prevent the perk from working correctly.
Trail of torment does fine job on its own to give you undetectable during EV3 but real version of myer's perk synergy at base-kit is meant to be monitor&abuse+furtive chase. that is ghostface 99% marking on steroids. that perk synergy would enable you to have a low terror radius for entire game in EV3.
Coup the grace exaggerates what myer's anti-loop is suppose to be. I think he has 20% coup the grace at base-kit in ev3 but that numerical value barely does anything. coup allows Myer's to use his EV3 as chasing power though most of power comes from the perk itself and not necessarily him. either way, his power has natural synergy with coup
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Just want to state that... Myers feels bad to play.... against. He is literally the killer with the most cheat add-ons. Even in his normal form, he feels like he's always in Tier 3.
GF vs Myers. GF stalks ONE survivor to get them down. Myers can stalk multiple and they all go into the same stalking meter. This is why a survivor gets down vs a Myers with in 2 seconds of starting chase, because Myers already gazed at the other teammates long enough.
If you think Myers is too weak, by all means, stop playing him. Hopefully others will follow suit and we can eliminate this scourge on the game known as 'The Shape'.
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I agree instant kill addons are dumb. But I disagree with GF. GF can stalk multiple survivors at same time, Myers can’t. Even if Myers sees many survivors at same time, he can only stalk from one of them. And once enough stalked, he can’t do it again from the same survivor. GF can do as many times as he wants, he remains stealth when fully marked and can enter stealth anytime in the match.
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Everyone only has a problem with the tombstone piece, just keep the tombstone itself the same
Besides, I like the thematicness of it and whole thing that Myers just doesn't care lol, he's just a killing machine
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Aye, I agree, it is very much on brand for Myers, and is amusing I guess for the memes...
However it is still pretty crappy an experience from the survivor side... and I'd say also crappy for gameplay for both sides. You remove so many elements of the game playing this play style, it's pretty far from anything I would consider fun, even as killer... like literally your counter play to instant kill Myers is to not bother with chase and just sprint to hide in a locker, and that is only effective because likely Myers is trying for Evil Incarnate... It's counterplay in the same regards as taking a dive 3 times in boxing for a TKO to avoid getting knocked out... which is a shame because normal Myers is actually quite fun to play both as and against IMO.
I don't necessarily consider my suggestion the best solution... far from it in fact... Devil's point of making his execution basekit seems the most sensible idea to me, but I'd impose the same restrictions as other mori's like Pyramid Head. If he just got it only on death hook, where you could just execute a player from EW3 whether healthy, injured, or dying, it's much less frustrating, cause the alternative scenario is you down the survivor with exposed anyway and then hook... so it's no difference to normal really.
With that in mind I'm OK with Judith Myers Tombstone staying as it is as his alternative gameplay that iri's tend to offer. You lose the ability to kill dying survivors if you really want the locker hiding gameplay... but Tomestone Piece should be nuked from orbit and made something totally different.
This also addresses the abysmal Evil incarnate Challenge as something you can also do on normal Myers instead of having to run this irritating cheesy add-on.
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whole point of mori is to skip hook-states. mori's at death hook are have low impact. just weakening his add-on makes myer's become more irrelevant to play. he is old character and his mori-gameplay works. some player will like trying to escape his canonical version of the mori while others will dislike the gameplay. he does have counter-play in regards to using LOS at high-wall loops and locker counter-play. there is not much wrong with it other then it is somewhat cheap mori to play against. so from my personal subjective point of view, I don't like playing vs it because of the process of how he gets the mori. it feels too robotic. other players might think it is the perfect mori design. fun is all subjective.
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Whole point of mori is to skip hook states.
No I have to disagree with that assessment. OLD mori's were like that, but almost all Mori's have been updated/reworked to only serve as a final flavour kill in death hook/end game OR as a threat to force a slow down side quest on survivors.
The only ones left that are still universally criticised by Survivors and Killers alike because they do exactly as you say, bypass hook states, are Pig's Tampered Timer add-on and Michael Myers Tomestone Piece add on.
Just weakening his addons makes him more irrelevant to play.
Yeah that's kinda the point. Nothing can be done to improve his base kit while he has this execute in it's current form. I'll tolerate conceding the iri, as it has sizeable downsides for its strength, and iri's tend to significantly change gameplay so maybe still has a place in the game... but his one TP add-on being problematic is pretty much what every single player already voices to death.
he does have counter-play in regards to using LOS at high-wall loops and locker counter-play. there is not much wrong with it other then it is somewhat cheap mori to play against.
//~
other players might think it is the perfect mori design. fun is all subjective.
Ofc it is subjective, and maybe if you squint and lean hard that looks like counterplay.... but I think you'd be hard pressed to find someone who will say having you're only option be to break LOS all the time and then hop in a locker to force a hook instead of an instant kill is fun and engaging gameplay. Most think of it how you do... cheap and boring.
I'm happy to listen to, debate and even be convinced by anyone who wants to defend this gameplay. I argue points like this so I can learn, and while I appreciate you're playing devil's advocate, you need a strong argument if that's what youre doing... and the fact pretty much all discussions around Tomestone Piece and Evil Incarnate are that they are extremely frustrating/painful/problematic from.both Killers and Survivors suggests that this player base who loves these mechanics is not prevalent at all.
Basekit execution on death hook gives players the benefit of being able to resolve a lot of this pain and be actually fair, and still keeps Myers as the only standing execution in the game.
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