Myers feels bad to play

The main issue is Myers execution must still exist because of associated achievements... but it comes from a completely different time of the game where a Mori was just a straight up kill that had no hook requirement or a 1 hook requirement.

This makes his execution add-ons a problem, cause they are designed around a game that no longer exists. They NEED to be brought up in line with modern Moris.

I would modify his execution add-on to work something like: -

Judith Myers Tomestone

• After 6 hooks grants the ability to kill healthy, injured or dying Survivors while in Evil Within III.
• Increases the amount of Evil required to reach Evil Within III for the first time by +150 % (+7.5 Stalk points).
• Reduces the Movement speed of The Shape by -5 % while in Evil Within III.

Tomestone Piece

• After 6 hooks grants the ability to kill healthy, injured or dying Survivors while in Evil Within III.
• Killing a Survivor drains the power of Evil Within III, resetting it to Evil Within II.
• Increases the amount of Evil required to reach Evil Within III for the first time by +100 % (+ 5 Stalk points).

Differences in bold. The numbers are open to tweeks ofc, but these changes should mean: -

1. Survivors get a better experience by making Myers play the normal game for a while to fulfil the hook requirement, while slowing down his progress to his mid/late game pressure.
2. 6 hooks for the Judith Myers Tombstone Iri means he's already earned the victory. You took a huge slowdown, especially when combining this with the permanent tier 3 add-on, but still got great pressure and should be afforded the ability to basically clean up. As such I reduced the movement speed slowdown.
3. 6 hooks for the Tombstone Piece means means he has got a commanding lead, and if he picks his target right he can bypass health states for a quick elimination to close it out, but he can't do it out of the gate, so removes the busted power this add on brings.
4. Remove the hiding in lockers as "counterplay". Being forced to accept a hook because you don't want to be executed is just silly. It's only a thing because Myers is not really playing the typical game by going for executions rather than hooks, which the previous points hopefully address.
5. Allows other buffs elsewhere in his kit because this instant execution option isn't available from very early on.
6. Retains the ability to get the Achievement/Trophy, keeping it challenging, but also not making it a stars align pain in the ass challenge.

To keep things unbalanced because of steam achievement seems to be a bad idea, they removed the dmogorgon adept and put something else in, they could do the same with the myers mori achievement, I don't see a problem there.

Even without MFT, the gameplay experience as an M1 killer is still quite frustrating. However, MFT indeed caused many M1 killers, including my friends, to quit this game. I feel like I'm also on the verge of giving up on this game. By the way, I'm a Legion main.

Killers that just ignore hooks are always problematic and being able to just insta kill someone is always miserable, it does not really matter if it is lore accurate, if it's miserable to play against it should not be implemented...

I however like the idea of giving him more bonuses for more stalking, that would be way better.

Myers is pretty strong against average survs.

I understand the sentiment, I'm a big fan of classic slasher films and ofc am a fan of Halloween... but despite that this is about gameplay first and foremost, and the issue I take with this statement is execution is not even Myer's, or any other killer's, default gameplay; hooks are the primary goal.

Executions are ofc part of the game, but for nearly all executions you start to see a pattern. Either the threat of them is a natural slowdown in the killers kit, or they are an alternative flavour for the final hook only available to the killer towards the end game. That's why most are controlled by hooks or similar: -

• Mori offerings
• Pyramid Heads Final Judgement
• Devour Hope
• Rancor (all gates powered instead)

The only exceptions are Pig and Sadako, who similar to devour hope, are forcing a side quest on survivors that if they ignore, will result in their deaths. In both cases, you shouldn't be relying on getting your power based execution, you should still be primarily going for hooks, and executions come if survivors don't deal with your natural slowdown.

That leaves us with add-on execution Myers, who takes longer to charge his power, and then once charged, starts deleting people from the game. You can argue that this is slowdown, the need to keep avoiding him and breaking line of sight keeps survivors off gens... but the exposure does this already. The execution has no end game control element here, no real chases or looping until it becomes 1 mistake = dead, no healing, no unhooking, no flashlight saves, no hook sabotage, no protection hits. Instead we get... accept the hook by hiding in lockers... yay...

All the game becomes is gen progress vs. stalk progress, and who gets there fast is probably gonna win. This is what makes it cheap and frustrating to face... even if Myers isn't that strong. Its unique... but unique because its bad is not a asset to be proud of.

I know I can't speak for everyone, but I myself find Myers boring as snot to play this way as well. Any kills I get I don't really feel like I earned, and ultimately I enjoy the chase and mind games throughout the whole game that I get with standard Myers, that becomes sorely missed when I'm just looking to kill each player as fast as possible. It's like tunneling on crack.

I am on board for basekit execution, as long as it still leaves way for the game to still have the normal gameplay elements.

Too true, you hit the nail, Myers is a fascinating snapshot of DBD design.

His power fits him wonderfully well so I don't think anyone wants to mess with it too much, but without his execution add-ons, he is an inferior Ghostface in almost every way.... weaker stealth with a more difficult to trigger power when you need it

Basekit execution is a solution I prefer to remove that add-on reliance, but execution shouldnt be the balancing component. Though it is weaker, the more I consider options, the more I come to think Evil Within as it is, is largely fine at realising the unique feel of Myers... so I'd leave EW as it is, but...

I'd be tempted to add tokens to EW with your "scaling him into your late game monster" point with some kind of condition. I want to say hooks... which is probably right... if a little boring. Whatever it is the execution in EW3 comes as part of the progress of those marks, along with the stat boosts you mention.

However you do it, I think my general point is stalk time should not be your execution trigger.

I think myer's fun is same as ghostface's fun. it is the action of combining instant down+undetectable. I think ghostface is suppose to be better at 99% instant down+undetectable play-style but he kinda feels like he works hard to achieve it. Myer's niche is 99% instant kill mori. both of those designs are inherent somewhat evil in design in the sense that if they are strong killers, they're not fun to play against from survivor's perceptive. the undetectable into instant down is kinda kept in its mediocre to avoid major complaints about it. you will either love the thrill of being jump-scared or really dislike stealth overall. It is same reason why many player dislike hit & run wraith because it also aims to do that instant down into undetectable gameplay with usage of anti-heal perks.

yes, trail of torment and coup are good on myer's. previously they were not very good perks. their drawbacks were too weak to be considered by killer players. If you want exaggerate myer's kit, The perk to change is furtive chase. it is a perk that is suppose to lower your terror radius every time you hook obsession. the only problem is that the perk ... only works inside chase. this is to prevent the perk from working correctly.

Trail of torment does fine job on its own to give you undetectable during EV3 but real version of myer's perk synergy at base-kit is meant to be monitor&abuse+furtive chase. that is ghostface 99% marking on steroids. that perk synergy would enable you to have a low terror radius for entire game in EV3.

Coup the grace exaggerates what myer's anti-loop is suppose to be. I think he has 20% coup the grace at base-kit in ev3 but that numerical value barely does anything. coup allows Myer's to use his EV3 as chasing power though most of power comes from the perk itself and not necessarily him. either way, his power has natural synergy with coup

Aye, I agree, it is very much on brand for Myers, and is amusing I guess for the memes...

However it is still pretty crappy an experience from the survivor side... and I'd say also crappy for gameplay for both sides. You remove so many elements of the game playing this play style, it's pretty far from anything I would consider fun, even as killer... like literally your counter play to instant kill Myers is to not bother with chase and just sprint to hide in a locker, and that is only effective because likely Myers is trying for Evil Incarnate... It's counterplay in the same regards as taking a dive 3 times in boxing for a TKO to avoid getting knocked out... which is a shame because normal Myers is actually quite fun to play both as and against IMO.

I don't necessarily consider my suggestion the best solution... far from it in fact... Devil's point of making his execution basekit seems the most sensible idea to me, but I'd impose the same restrictions as other mori's like Pyramid Head. If he just got it only on death hook, where you could just execute a player from EW3 whether healthy, injured, or dying, it's much less frustrating, cause the alternative scenario is you down the survivor with exposed anyway and then hook... so it's no difference to normal really.

With that in mind I'm OK with Judith Myers Tombstone staying as it is as his alternative gameplay that iri's tend to offer. You lose the ability to kill dying survivors if you really want the locker hiding gameplay... but Tomestone Piece should be nuked from orbit and made something totally different.

This also addresses the abysmal Evil incarnate Challenge as something you can also do on normal Myers instead of having to run this irritating cheesy add-on.

No I have to disagree with that assessment. OLD mori's were like that, but almost all Mori's have been updated/reworked to only serve as a final flavour kill in death hook/end game OR as a threat to force a slow down side quest on survivors.

The only ones left that are still universally criticised by Survivors and Killers alike because they do exactly as you say, bypass hook states, are Pig's Tampered Timer add-on and Michael Myers Tomestone Piece add on.

Yeah that's kinda the point. Nothing can be done to improve his base kit while he has this execute in it's current form. I'll tolerate conceding the iri, as it has sizeable downsides for its strength, and iri's tend to significantly change gameplay so maybe still has a place in the game... but his one TP add-on being problematic is pretty much what every single player already voices to death.

Ofc it is subjective, and maybe if you squint and lean hard that looks like counterplay.... but I think you'd be hard pressed to find someone who will say having you're only option be to break LOS all the time and then hop in a locker to force a hook instead of an instant kill is fun and engaging gameplay. Most think of it how you do... cheap and boring.

I'm happy to listen to, debate and even be convinced by anyone who wants to defend this gameplay. I argue points like this so I can learn, and while I appreciate you're playing devil's advocate, you need a strong argument if that's what youre doing... and the fact pretty much all discussions around Tomestone Piece and Evil Incarnate are that they are extremely frustrating/painful/problematic from.both Killers and Survivors suggests that this player base who loves these mechanics is not prevalent at all.

Basekit execution on death hook gives players the benefit of being able to resolve a lot of this pain and be actually fair, and still keeps Myers as the only standing execution in the game.