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Comments
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From what I have seen, some people just want Killers to play mindlessly without strategy like going for chases into strong parts of the maps with no gens nearby because it gives Survivors the greatest chance of winning.
Every single Killer strategy like tunneling/camping/slugging/3 genning has been called out for being “unfun” and “boring”, even hit and run/Sloppy gets complained about.
When some people point out that going for 12 hook chases alone won’t win them games because of how gen efficiency works, they are either told “skill issue”, to come up with a less ambitious win condition or that they will only run into hyper efficient teams rarely so it’s fine and they should take the L.
On the contrary, I hardly see offers to analyze gameplay footage when a person complains about losing as Survivor and the conversation just turns to calls for nerfs. People playing Killer are expected to learn and get better, but I don’t see the same being expected of Survivor players, I see more calls for handholding and mechanics to mitigate the impact of their mistakes.
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New players don´t finish 4 gens while i only get 2 hooks. Against new players the numbers would be reversed.
Isn´t the free weekend next week?
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It's always easier to call out others and dont adjust or improve depending on the situation. As survivor player you have the high ground here.. you're 4 players vs 1 player after all, it's pretty clear that after 7+ years the situation didnt change and it's not going to change at this point. Every strat and perk has been already optimized for both sides. I'm sure I'm not telling you any news here by all means but bhvr and their constant crusade on things being too "opppressive" (giant buzzword used constantly on patch notes) is undoing their own game piece of by piece..
The more people have strong opinions and bias on one side and bhvr is forced to act.. the more "tunneling" will be always the most effective tactic as killers now have very little going and it's incredible punishing if you're facing decent/good survivors. Removing strats, decimating gen defense perks only fuels the only viable strat VS GOOD/DECENT survivors.. I'm not talking about the player that has music on and he's watching a stream on his 2nd monitor, no. I'm talking about the players that know how to actually make the killer waste as much time as possible while there's 2-3 teammates working on the gens on every single chase the killer takes..
All I'm going to say that since they killed gen defense perks, nerfed corrupt intervention, removed hook grabs and soon punishing or killing 3 gens to later this year to straight up penalize "camping" (it's so vague the use of it when in most situations survivors put preassure on the killer by staying around the book on purpose) survivors players SHOULD understand that focusing (aka tunneling) will be even more effective as strat..
I'm sure the majority celebrating on twitter and here will be extremely happy when they get bots for killers and they will only get "unfun" matches when the killer has to use the only viable strat for decent/good survivors..
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Excepting for extreme edge cases, like massive matchmaking failures or situations where you're playing Trapper with a meme build and you're facing a 4-man with a hardcore genrushing build, you can perform perfectly well as most killers without tunnelling, camping, or jealously hardcore defending a 3-gen.
It's straight up just a skill issue to say otherwise.
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In other words, you barely play the game and likely are in potato MMR bracket.
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Surely... the only possibility...
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With all due respect, you do not know anything about this mechanic yet and cannot possibly say whether or not it holds your hand. Trying to dispel something under the guise of being hand holdy without having any info on it is silly, and frankly you could apply that same logic to anything (where it also wouldn't hold up to any scrutiny).
I find that what you're doing here is downplaying how strong and frustrating this strategy can be while simultaneously trying to turn this into an us vs. them situation. If your loyalty to one side is causing you to argue against fixing overly powerful or frustrating gameplay that the other side may face, then you've shown you don't actually care for things like fun and balance as much as your care about your own experience. You can acknowledge how people feel when they're stuck in a scenario like this and still want improvements on your end as well. The two are not mutually exclusive.
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They already did do something about it. Look what Deja Vu does now. Deja Vu is one of the best solo queue perks there is and you'll always get value. The BNP change is also great if you're really worried about it. What more do they need to do?
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Hahahahaha it always makes me laugh when i read this "survivor mistakes" hehehe.... dam deacklock activate -_-
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High level surviors should have no problem if the killer is defending a 3 gen from the start. Except in the most extreme circumstances, it's pretty easy to finish the last gen if you still have four survivors left. It's a low level problem.
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With all due respect, when have you released a mechanic to "solve survivor's gameplay problems that already have a gameplay solution" that wasn't "hand holdy"? In fact, let's ask the killers reading this: How many times have you being denied of your end game 1K because the basekit BT protection prevented you to down anybody? And I doubt that I have to remember a member of the dev team what happened everytime you even tried to implement mechanics like this: Survivors abused them to get an advantage. How is all this no "hand holdy" when they allowed survivor to win games they shouldn't? Because if a survivor should be dead and he isn't because a game mechanic prevents it, then it is hand holding him. And yes, thank god many of those things wasn't released past the PTB (yet), but that doesn't change that you invested developing time in them.
This would not be a problem if, again, there wasn't already gameplay solutions for things like this: Coordinating bodyblocks to go for the save, doing the gens in a way that don't let the killer have 3 close by gens at the end (something that has happened to me, while I never defended 3 gens since the start of the game, and I have being accused of "3genning" anyways), etc. But survivors refuse to adapt and learn how to counter those things, so they complain and Papa BHVR comes up with yet another mechanic to make their life easier, while making SWF with voicecomms stronger and M1 killers even less viable. Again, this is like a soccer team complaining is so boring and hard playing against teams using defensive tactics and the FIFA saying "Well, nobody can use a 5-4-1 formation against this team anymore".
And don't get me wrong, I'm the first one that hope for whatever you have in mind to solve 3genning being so fair and balanced you can shut my mouth up and make me swallow my words when you announce it, but right now I'm just looking at the past facts, including the new "anti-camping" mechanic than even in paper sounds abusable already.
And about the "loyalty to one side" and the "us vs them" situation: When was the last time a member of the dev team or even a moderator have come to this forum to say to the killer community "Don't worry guys, we hear you and we are working in solving it"? Because I don't remember seeing it a single time. I have seen devs saying something multiple times in post like this one and others about camping, tunneling, 3genning, slugging... never in a post about the "overly powerful or frustrating gameplay" killers face. Are there any QoL improvements for killers coming? Something about haste stacking to the point of survivors being faster than killers in the works? About the amount of Endurance perks you implemented that are allowing even a new bully strategy when paired with Power Struggle? About M1 killers not being able to compete? Anything? Or we have to just wait for you to decide to solve any of those things 2 years from now and be grateful of the pleasant surprise?
Based on this, can we say that are you the ones only caring about the "fun and 'balance'" of survivors and not nearly enough about the experiences killers have playing the game? Because I think that I have addressed the problem in my other post: It's true that some killers can use those strategies so efficiently that makes it hard to counter them. So, nerf those killers. Rework Skull Merchant so she can't defend 3 gens at the start of the game and make it impossible to break it, change Bubba's power so he can't instadown someone with his chainsaw near a hook to prevent him from camping without allowing survivors to do a rescue. Refactor the map generator so it doesn't spawn 3 gens close by in an straight line.
Whatever it takes to "balance the fun" (for both sides, if you don't mind). But for the love of The Entity, don't add another general killer nerf in form of a mechanic to the game for the sole reason of survivors wanting to just do gens without having to put any thought in it, when it's their work to not let it happen. Because then, it would end being another hand holding advantage for them by design, and another reason to get frustrated as a killer as you aren't getting outsmarted by survivors playing good, you are being outsmarted by the mechanics of the game.
Post edited by Batusalen on5 -
I think the main concern is that solutions to survivor problems tend to just be 100% nerfs on the killer side, or 100% buffs on the survivor side
1) The previewed anti-camping solution was shown as a 100% nerf for killers.
2) Hook grabs got removed, and was a 100% nerf for killers
3) The survivor HUD was a 100% buff for survivors
4) The visual terror radius was a 100% buff for survivors
5) Being worried that the 3 gen solution might be a 100% buff for survivors, or 100% nerf for killers, feels like a completely valid concern.
6) We still have zero announcements for killer quality of life improvements, or killer player experience buffs, beyond an FoV thing that is being implemented for accessibility reasons. And considering that survivors have the 5 above announced player experience buffs, it feels like fun is only important for survivors.
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Don't forget the try to change killer's hit cooldown animation and the real reason behind it. I still laugh everytime I remember it:
Patch notes: "Some killers looks down, which makes hard for the killer to follow where the survivor goes after a hit, while others not. So, we are going to change it so it is more consistent."
Me thinking: Oh hey! They're going to change the animation to make somewhat easier for killers to chase survivors! No more Houdini survivors disappearing after...
Patch notes: "We are going to make every one of them look down!"
Me:
But hey, I'm just silly for assuming, it seems.
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It's not really the 3 gen that needs to be nerfed as the killers who capitalize off it do. Skull merchant being at the top of the list as she can essentially force a 3 gen if she decides to patrol the entire game. Things like that should not be allowed by the killers power directly but if the survivors mess up and leave themselves in a 3 gen with a blight then that's on them. It's a killer issue and not a 3 gen issue. Really nerfing sm would erase the forced 3 gen strat.
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Most people who say this absolutely do not want to face that level of coordination or have the game balanced around that level of play. You should be ok with playing against survivors playing with that level of coordination on a consistent basis if you're ok with a mechanic being balanced around it. And even if that is the case, no game of DbD should push beyond the 20 minute mark.
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It doesn't take some ungodly level of coordination to break a three gen if you still have four survivors. It's pretty straight forward for any high-level solo queue survivor except in the most extreme cases. There are so many tools they've given us to help. Deja Vu is big, BNP change is big, being able to see what your teammates are doing was also a massive buff people ignore. 99% of the time, a three gen at the end of the game is avoidable or manageable.
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Agree with every single word. These are literally my thoughts too, but I couldn't have said it better.
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Wait, this guy just cooked something and I am all in for it.
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'Denied of your endgame 1k' is not really a fair way to phrase it - firstly considering the fact that you're reached endgame with no kills in the first place and secondly because you cannot get a kill without tunnelling and camping one survivor out; since according to your logic the only way to get an endgame kill is through bypassing the 'basekit BT protection' to tunnel and kill one survivor. Just because you are a killer player this does not mean you deserve a kill and this mentality is exactly why the basekit BT was added in the first place; to actually give individual survivors a chance to escape killers to solely want to kill them and no one else.
Perhaps survivors still have abusable mechanics in this game which need fixing, but to act like the devs have not already tried to fix potentially unfavourable mechanics that act against killer players is rather derogatory and rude. I will list some of the buffs killers have received:
- Dead Hard nerf
- Generator time increase to 90 seconds
- Medkit nerfs
- Hit recovery time decrease
- Pallet/generator/wall destruction time decrease
- Endurance non-stacking effect, removal with conspicuous actions
- Decisive strike/Off the record removal in endgame
- 2.5% instant damage when kicking generators
Yes there are problems in this game, I agree. However, you must understand that if this game becomes anywhere near completely 'balanced', e.g. the removal of survivor strategies with perks (as you mentioned) or the concept all killers [m1 or not] having equal chances to win, this game would be so, so boring. Dead By Daylight is not built to be a balanced game, therefore this concept of being 'outsmarted by the mechanics of the game' has always applied to both killer and survivor and always probably will. Here are some examples of this in survivor:
- Getting hit through a window when the hit doesn't appear to connect
- Running into a dead zone that simply exists because of RNG
- Simply no option to make a 4-man escape against a basement Bubba due to his ability to camp with no downside
and for killer:
- Unnecessarily large maps with generators almost impossible to patrol
- Unplayable loop setups that make chasing feel arduous rather than fun
& many more on both sides. The point is, Dead By Daylight is not, and was not created as a balanced game and therefore often the game itself can feel like it is against you.
The devs are adding these mechanics (such as basekit BT etc) because they want to make Dead By Daylight into the game it is meant to be. Dead By Daylight is meant to be a thrilling game where the killer traverses the map hunting 4 survivors, not a game where a killer hunts and camps one particular survivor to get one kill. At this moment in time, I agree that the playstyle of NOT camping/tunnelling may be really punishing and you may feel forced to do so due to genrushing/too many pallets/overpowered loops etc... but until the devs remove the effortless nature of camping and tunnelling, they cannot nerf said genrushing/too many pallets/overpowered loops because that would simply make camping and tunnelling more powerful, oppressive and potentially drive most of the survivor playerbase away from the game.
It is actually a concrete fact that killer has received more buffs over the past year than survivor, so I would appreciate if you possibly understood that yes these developers ARE listening to you and are trying!! But until they add/alter mechanics to sort out the large CURRENT problems in the survivor/killer experience right now, they cannot progress to an overall better game. Although some mechanics that the devs add may currently feel punishing and abusable, they are often added with consideration to a larger plan that hopes to change the macro-level gameplay experience that perfects the fine line of Dead By Daylight being 'party game' that still offers competitive intensity/payoff.
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People feeling a certain way doesn’t mean that they are right. People complained about gen defense and you proceeded to completely neuter it, which, along with Skull Merchant, made 3 genning and tunneling more prominent. How can you not see through these mountains of complaints as people being sore losers?
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Like Jack the Reaper said, "let's go by parts":
Of course, you have take it the "camping" way. But the point isn't a 1K being "rightfully yours" or not. Of course you don't have the right to any kill. But if the only reason I didn't get a 1K is because the basekit BT prevented me to down not even the hooked survivor, but the unhooker, as they are going to use that free Endurance to make a protection hit and then the unhooker would proceed to leverage his healthy state to body block you from downing the unhooked survivor again, then, I have being denied of a 1K not because survivors played extremely good or because one of them even thought of bringing BT to the game for cases like this. No, I wasn't able to even get a 1K because the basekit BT mechanic prevent the killer to be able to do anything in that situation unless survivors screw up. That's it. Because in a normal situation one of the two should have go down, but they didn't just because the free Endurance. So, sorry if the wording of it triggered you, but the mechanic have denied me a 1K in that situation.
Can you tell me where I have said that "the devs have not already tried to fix potentially unfavourable mechanics" for killers, if you don't mind? Because I think that what I clearly pointed out is, in any case, that those fixes and perk changes you mentioned there came after years of people complaining and without anyone even knowing they were coming in the first place. In fact, the "two years" phrasing was a reference of what happened with the unexpected nerf to DH. We could also talk about the efficiency of any of those changes, but that's another topic. Also, I think you are confusing "perks" with "game mechanics" when they are not the same.
Now, again, are you so kind of telling me where I said things like "the removal of survivor strategies with perks" (whatever that means) or that I want "all killers having equal chances to win"? Because if it wasn't by the first part of your post, I would think that you made a mistake and was really answering other post. But what most surprises me is that you really think that any of those things would make the game boring, but making survivors gameplay more brainless (as now they don't even have to think if they are leaving a good last gens to the killer) not.
But the funny part is that all your survivors examples of "being outsmarted by the mechanics of the game" aren't really base game mechanics, while your two examples for the killer are, in fact, base game mechanics that work that way by design. By design. That's the difference.
And sincerely, the rest of your post is too much to even try to make a good argument against it (they implemented base BT because they wanted to "make Dead By Daylight into the game it is meant to be"? Really? And they can not nerf "genrushing/too many pallets/overpowered loops" because that would somehow make camping and tunneling worst? Seems legit...), so I'm just going to wish you a great day.
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The developers really aren't trying to balance the player experience buffs and quality of life buffs, between survivors and killers. It's crystal clear that survivors get way more attention with this. Killers just get generic number buffs, that move the kill rate, but don't actually make the killer experience feel any better.
Where are the announcements for player experience buffs and quality of life buffs, for killers? How many years do we need to wait, for BHVR to announce anything besides an FoV mechanic (and we still have zero idea how the FoV mechanic is going to work, or if it's even going to feel useful)?
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The only problematic 3-gen is with Skull Merchant. every other killer has to make an effort or bring a special build. who makes an effort or brings a special build should be rewarded in a higher chance of winning even its a disliked tactic by the opposite team. map rng comes into play sometimes, but that's a pendulum that can swing into both sides.
Skull Merchant on the other hand... Coming from an 45 min game that only ended because someone of the survivor game gave up, i would say disable until there have a better idea what to do with this killer.
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I dont doubt they would add an unnecessary mechanic to bail out survivors from bad mistakes. The only positive to attempting this would be the record of other proposed solutions which turn out too abusable to implement, then maybe pass on it entirely.
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