New Fast Vaults are a complete joke and might as well be removed.
https://twitter.com/HensDBD/status/1696689989029863535?s=20
Huge distance,huge speed. Hooray to all the killer mains that cried about imaginary i-frames.
Male survivors still vault further btw
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this is actually sad
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For the million time, the "new" fast vaults were bugged to the point of softlocking the tutorial and making survivors invincible while vaulting.
And in my personal opinion, I don't care if they made the vaults give you more distance as long as I can still hit you if you are in attack range, even if you are at the other side. I don't know why is so strange to you all that the killer is able to hit you through an open window to the point of wanting an invisible field on it.
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your not suppose to be able to m1 through window after completing fast vault. your suppose to teleport further away from window after finishing vault. for fast-vaults, killer should only be able to hit you DURING the vault animation. not after animation is done. in conclusion, they still have not fixed the vaulting bug for females.
if the killer cannot hit you after finishing vault for the males then males vaults are working correctly.
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If you stand in front of it, how it is a bug that you can be hit through, again, an open and unobstructed window.
Again, I don't care if they add more distance to the vault so it help you getting away from the window quicker, but if you are inside my attack range I don't care in what side of the window you are, you should get hit for many reasons, starting because it's the logical thing.
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yes
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your not suppose to be standing on front of a window after completing vault. your suppose to be like 2-3 meter ahead window after finishing fast vault. you can only hits survivor after completing a vault if the vault is medium vault or slow vault. they need to fix the bug or just revert change. it was already fixed. they just needed to reduce distance for male survivors.
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Yeah, experienced it multiple times. Really sad and they are even different from before the recent fix to fast vaults, so this might be their final solution... at least for a while.
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Medium Vault? Does that exist? How long have I been in the dark on this?
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Of course they exist. Medium vault is what happens if you stop next to window, press run button and vault (this takes 0.9s and leaves you touching the window from the other side so killer can hit you even after the vault).
If you run directly at the window for about 3-4m distance, you will vault window faster (0.5s) and you should be far enough from window, that killer can't hit you now (and this distance part is the topic of the thread).
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TIL something new. Is it also a medium vault if you vault a window after running along the wall the window is attached? (rather than directly at the window)
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Yes. There's a skill element to learning the angle and distance to get fast vs mid vault. The animation is very different for both - I suggest you train this one, as it's one of the biggest skill boost a new player can get in chase (the other ones being camera placement and check spots)
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... 3 meters? So you are able to jump further than the height of the tallest person when vaulting? Because if not, it's the first notice I have that the meters of the game are not somewhat at "scale", as that would be more than a "Wraith" of distance.
Either way, I said that because I thought he meant that it was a bug that the Alien was able to hit the Ada in the video. And again, I don't really care what distance any of the vaults has, but if you are at attack range you should get hit, no matters in what point of the vault you are or if you have finished it and are at the other side of the window.
And just for reference, this is in theory the hitbox (as I didn't find any more sources of the actual range):
BTW, also for reference and in theory, there are exactly 8 in-game meters from the center of one of the pillars to another of the wall in the image. I doubt that survivors are supposed to vault almost half of that wall there.
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yep i do agree , bad players were really so desperate about their bs hits not connecting and now just look how insanely bad the vaults are , not only you can be hit during the entire 0.5 sec animation also another extra 0.2 seconds after vaulting because your hitbox now stays insanely close to the window and you have to move forward a bit to prevent the hit after fast vaulting like the medium vaults , claps nicely done bad killer mains / new killer players 🙄.
basically right now we went from balanced vault on females but a bit generous for males
to terrible for females and still generous for males , WHAAAAAAAAAAT? OKAY BHVR
dude , really i've been playing this game for over 5 years now and nope fast vaulting was never intended to allow the killer to hit the survivor during the entire 0.5 sec animation , the hitboxes used to be like this: (on green ping btw and not ressilience)
*survivor fast vaults a window*
*survivor reaches 0.455 of the animation* ----their hitbox is now far away enough to prevent any m1 hit from connecting.
*killer swings during that period* ------ their hit doesnt connect and bad players blames I-frames for some reason.
*survivor finishes the vault* -----------succes timing!!! (but right now that timing is 0.8 seconds because you dont gain any distance)
for reference here it is footage of the old vaults:
stop lying dude pls....(that cheryl its me btw - old dh was meta dont judge me XD)
Post edited by MB666 on2 -
The improved vaults definitely made the game feel a little better as a solo survivor main. Sadge.
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the way vaults are suppose to be is where purple line is. medium vaults are suppose to be where yellow line is. the bug they had in previous update was that male vaults were where orange line is. they needed to move distance a bit back to purple line. I remember someone talking about vaults at one point in a patch note.
it was long time ago where they buffed medium vaults momentum. they called the mechanic momentum. I do not remember which dev talked about that. they buffed medium vaults at one point to be 0.9 instead of 1.1. I believe this was the time around clown's release. In any case, momentum is how far you get propel forward after completing a vault. fast vaults are meant to be max momentum such that when you complete it, you do not get hit by killer m1 swing. medium vaults are medium momentum. you still get hit but your directly next to the window. slow vaults have no momentum. you will be directly next to the window after a slow vault.
I personally do not like these medium and fast vault mechanics because the loops lose symmetry where if you are on counter-clock wise part of loop, like say shack, you can react to medium vault window vault on pallet side because of how slow medium vaults are. not a big fan of vaulting mechanics in the game but I can understand the mechanic for why it was invented. I prefer reading my opponent and winning mind games at every turn. at same time, a lot of m1 killer have too weak of a base-kit to challenge loops and gen speed to hook ratio is not that fair for killer. in that sense, medium vaults are fair. this is just mini-rant on my thoughts on vaulting in the game. this is whole separate discussion on a different topic.
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You are in a window, you can still be hit.
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Yeah... have you seen the reaction of the killer there because he should have hit you? That's the reason of why you should be hit if you are still in range.
Also, I'm going to bet that gif is from the time were the game was still P2P and lagging was even more of a problem that it is right now.
You are simply nuts, starting with that being almost 4 meters of jump and almost 5 meters for male (if you pay close attention, the fence over the wall have 16 bars coming from the center of the pillar, and if the wall is 8 meters then 2 bars means 1 meter). Are survivors able to fly now, apart of being olympic runners thanks to haste perks?
Also, besides from the fast vault being significantly faster than a slow or medium vault (0.5 seconds to complete vs 0.9 / 1.5 seconds, respectively) there is no mention anywhere of a "minimum distance" for the vault, much less that it guarantees you enough distance to being out of the reach of the killer.
What the momentum means is that first, you need a minimum distance running to reach the enough momentum to do a fast vault, as not survivor or the killer accelerates to their maximum speed instantly afaik (in fact, lounge attack distance is also affected by momentum, meaning that if I walk for a couple of seconds before doing it it would reach further). That, and on patch 2.5.0 they implemented this:
- Survivor Quality of Life: Survivors now retain their momentum after Vaulting, instead of it being reset to 0 as previously.
And what that means is that you will maintain your speed the moment you finish any of the vaults, so if you have maximum speed when vaulting (AKA fast vault) you would have instantly max speed when you are at the other side, so it will be more easy for you to get out of reach in conjunction with the fast vault only taking 0.5 seconds to complete. Again, it has nothing to do with vaulting distance.
In conclusion, fast vaulting never had anything to do with gaining a lot of distance or making you unable to get hit, but giving you the chance to get away faster without guaranteeing your safety, as it is logical and is how it has to be. Taking this in count, if they add distance to fast vaults for both male and females (for consistency and Trapper reasons) it should look something like this:
1.5 meters of jump made in 0.5 seconds and max speed on finish that also count haste effects so you have more than enough time to get out of there. And if you don't, then maybe you should have go for a pallet as I was literally breathing on your neck. Powerful, but fair, not going flying to the other side of the map through the window because you don't like to get hit.
Post edited by Batusalen on0 -
getting hit after finishing fast vault is unfair hit for the killer.
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If you are in my attack range, no it's not. What is unfair and illogical is the contrary.
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im not on my screen. you're getting juicy hits because of your juicy ping.
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Yes you are, but you are not conscious of the range the killer has, as someone posted a vid where obviously he was in attack range but he thought he wasn't just because he was away from the window.
Also, how it works, it is your dry ping what is making you not seeing it as the server meant.
Post edited by Batusalen on1 -
The game literally doesnt reject the Killer's POV at all. It's not server sided below a ginormous ping. Even if I have 30ms ping,which I often do,the Killer can still hit me from space if they switch to their McDonald's WiFI with 150ms ping. Stop coping,the hit interactions have been killer sided for a long,long time. Even the stun vildation got super broken because too many killers whined about it while it was mechanically fair.
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Tell me you don't know anything about gaming networking without telling me you doesn't.
The server favors the "PoV" of the killer because that's how any game with a minimum of lag compensation works. It's called "favoring the shooter", as it was something designed mainly for FPS.
What this does is prevent the cases where you would shoot someone during 2 seconds without dealing any damage and the other person would be able to kill you because their info got to the server before your info, even if you started shooting first. That's why unless the difference of time between the two packets getting to the server is abysmal (or in other words, one of the players is lagging like hell) and assuming there isn't a problem with packets getting lost, the server analyze the situation and says "Oh wait, this player shooted the other first" and corrects the situation on both ends. This can also provoke what I call "Corner-turning bullets", where you try to get behind a wall while someone is shooting you and even if you see that you get there you got killed anyway. But, in a FPS this is something that you have to endure knowing that when it is the reverse situation you would be the one favored.
Now, all this is how it works in a dedicated server architecture. But there is also another problem, specially when games were P2P (peer to peer), as in that architecture even if there is a host acting as middle point, every single player (peer) was responsible of receiving, processing and sending their info to the other players (hence, "peer to peer" connection). What do you think would happen if when one player sent to another the info that he was shooting him, that other player had so much lag that the packets just get lost and never receives it? That's right! He would be invincible and not receive any damage, as his client never get the packets that said he was getting hurt.
That's why back in the day one common form of hacking was using a "lag switch", because having lag was an advantage in many cases. And, that is most than probably why the survivor in that gif wasn't getting hit when he should have: Because he was lagging, and his client never received the packets that indicated that he should have being hurt.
So, it is you and the ones that thinks like you who should stop coping, as if the server said that you have being hit then most than probably it's because you have being hit, as in the end it doesn't matter who had the lag in the first place as the server compensates for this. Also, I'm going to bet that is one of the reasons they removed the "new" fast vaults, as the lag compensation wasn't working as intended and survivors got instant immunity the moment they started vaulting.
Post edited by Batusalen on0 -
The server literally doesnt below super high ping values and even then not consistently but sure Jimmy. Tell me how in Counter Strike you'll get an advantage from playing on 300 ping. (Which psst,gives a HUGE advantage to Killer in DBD)
You clearly don't know how terrible BHVR's networking is and presume this is a sensible system to feel all smug about it.
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You don't get an advantage having high ping most of the time in CS nowadays exactly for the reasons I had give you, but keep proving that you don't have any idea of what you are talking about, please.
EDIT - Just for the giggles:
Post edited by Batusalen on0 -
Those hit's gotten so bad that i lost my desire to keep playing the game as often as before. (i have more than 6k hours).
I keep dying far behind windows, getting killed after stunning the killer. It's just so frustrating.
Favoring killers is a thing in DBD, that's why different games start to win over dbd more and more often for a lot of players.
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This is total BS and no FPS (or even moba) that is remotely popular/big works this way. Any reasonable game uses server as the sole authority.
You send packets of what you are doung (shooting at direction X) and the server sends info to targeted player "you got hit", because server decides if you were shooting in the air or at the target.
This way if you have bad ping, you suffer all the time. If you have good ping, you have advantage, because you see more correctly where your enemy actually is + your actions get executed quicker - which means you are less likely to target place where there's nobody any more (and if you have perfect ping, you never ever get hit behind the corner - you can only get shot behind the corner if you have bad ping and the info that you are going behind the corner arrives at server too late = server will say you are not behind the corner).
I have no idea where you even came up with your idea of networking. That could indeed work only in p2p games, but they will always suffer from cheaters and bs hits - because without server authority it's super-hard to address cheating (I am not saying there's no cheating with servers, but it's much easier to address them when you have servers)
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https://www.linkedin.com/advice/3/how-do-you-implement-lag-compensation-prediction
Not even 5 minutes to search in Google. That's all that you needed to do instead of posting that.
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The first link you posted is exactly what I WAS TALKING ABOUT - with 1 simple caveat - it does not compare to what server sees right now, but instead what server thinks you saw when you were doing action (plus it's also talking about optimistic updates + server being authority that can invalidate you - btw that's also what is being explained in video you included).
Read the link you actually posted.
As for the video - they themselves talk about favoring the shooter until something interesting happens (like using ability and so on) - so in case DBD adopted same thing - you get reliable hits so long as survivor does not vault window or drop pallet or does something like that - and in case he does something like this - it's reverted back to what the client (meaning survivor) did instead of what killer saw + even "favor the shooter" is limited in time so that you can't abuse very high ping.
So again - watch the video you link yourself.
Still - thanks for the link. Apparently things did change from the time I was interested in netcode and server-state is no longer THE king in every single possible situation.
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Dude, the only thing you said there is how the client-server infrastructure works while I and the links was talking about the lag compensation techniques for action games used today in such infrastructure. It isn't something new, either. If you check the Valve one you would see that the article is from 2001.
And yes, assuming that DbD lag compensation also "favor the shooter" as everybody says (which is logical, as it is what any multiplayer and action game does to compensate lag) and have some kind of prediction method, that's why sometimes the killer is able to hit a survivor just before dropping a pallet or why even if you should have hit that survivor you don't, and get pallet dropped instead.
This doesn't change the fact that vaults never was intended to give you immunity to hits even at the other side, as again, you are still in range of the killer attack hitbox through and unblocked and open space. And the only reason of why some players that had played in the old times thinks otherwise, was because they were getting free saves because of the lag when the game was still P2P and even now days it still happen from time to time. That's the reason of getting hit now in a vault and think it is a "bs hit", just as the "new fast vault" being bugged (we don't know if because lag compensation or something related with hitboxes, but bugged after all) and believing that is how vaults should work.
Anyway, glad that you learned something new today.
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DBD is built as P2P game. And it does not work the way most games are made. Most games send what player is doing and let server decide. DBD sends what player saw that happened. That is the easiest reason why you very simply create cheats of people instantly hooking or escaping from trial or why you can literally still get hit even after you move several steps after you completed vault if killer's ping is exceptionally bad (and no solution from your links would allow THIS BAD interactions).
The reason why you now sometimes don't get hit (even if you see blood) at pallets and get hit instead was inclusion of validation servers. That was good step forward, but it very much shows that validation servers are afterthought and that things that come to server are still "what player sees" instead of "what player does" (+ letting server decide what to do with it).
Also "favor the shooter" is absolutely horrendous strategy in case of DBD. Because lags favor "shooter" 2 times. The game is about reaction so if killer has bad ping, survivor has less time to react to killer (because he sees what he does later) AND get hit even if he gets to safety. All those FPS tactics and networking libraries were designed to minimize feeling of unfairness as much as humanly possible. That means you should absolutely not reward someone (twice) for having bad ping.
So you saying players had free escapes in case of P2P makes absolutely no sense (as pure P2P means killers sees hit so it's hit even if everyone else involved in game see that survivor 50m away from that spot). In those time lagswitch meant you could hit anyone any time just by disabling your net for a few seconds (but short enough to not get DC)
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Dude, I would only say that DbD changed to a dedicated server infrastructure years ago. They still left some authority to the client side, and that's why they were able to create those hacks, but as far as I know they have already changed a lot of it too and that's why we don't see as much hackers (or at least, as much hacking such as insta finish the game) as before. Also, "validation server"? Do you mean that the dedicated server that is running the game validate player input as any other game server does? Because if not, that term is incorrect in this context and makes me think that you have some base on networking, but not applied to gaming.
It makes all the sense in the world that survivors got free escapes because of their lag when the game was still P2P as the killer was the host of the game, ergo, the killer didn't had any lag as he was the middle point for the rest of players.
And of course, "Favor the shooter" is absolutely fine for a game like DbD as any action game is about reaction and other games are doing fine with those lag compensation techniques and ways. I won't argue that maybe BHVR needs to tune up it so it handles better high lag situations, but again, it's an industry standard for games like DbD to work this way.
So, yeah... keep on going if you want, but you are wrong.
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There's a difference between validation server and dedicated server. Dedicated server is something that takes input and calculates state of the world and sends authoritative state to all the clients in game. Validation servers does less - it just checks timestamps and selected actions (check drop-pallet timestamp vs hit timestamp) - when comparing those, send authoritative action to all clients.
Validation servers are much simpler and has much less control over the game - even though they DO have some control.
As for your P2P - you are right that killer was server ergo 0 ping. But in case of "favor the shooter" (which is same as "favor the server truth") - what you saw from killer's perspective was ALWAYS desired behavior (because 0 lag). You could see some funky things from survivor's perspective, but killer hitting on window and not getting hit was intended interaction (minus specific bug - but now we are not talking about networking).
In case of dropping pallet - then you could be right. Because in this case "favor the shooter" is survivor dropping said pallet. But that absolutely does nothing when survivor is vaulting the window or when killer is trying to hit survivor (and it does not matter if he tries to hit him next to pallet or not). Also it's basically counterproductive for survivor too - because what does it matter that you get stun, if you get hit as well (apart from having one less pallet)?
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all this talk about hit validation, ping and whatnot when the actual problem is fast vaults not giving any distance from the window lmao
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im convinced the devs are killer mains after this monstrosity of a chapter.
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DUDE, if you have a dedicated server running the match, why would you have another server validating anything? And if your game runs in a P2P infrastructure, that means that you don't have any server validating anything in the first place as every client would be doing it's own validation! What the hell are you on about? There is no "validation server" in a gaming infrastructure, the server side of the game is doing the validation! What you are saying doesn't-makes-any-sense.
And lag compensation and favor the shooter is done in a dedicated server infrastructure. The game, when it was P2P, didn't have any lag compensation as far as we know because again, there wasn't any server synchronizing the game! The host was the "server", simply relaying the info sent to him from one of the clients to the other clients, and was those client's work to validate whatever happened to the game. You are mixing up the things said to try to have a point to make, and you are failing.
And about the pallets, sadly, we can't have a 0 ping connection between clients (not even in a LAN, where you have your PC just besides another, you have a 0 ping connection) so no matter how much we wish to reduce the problems caused by lag, it's impossible to avoid them completely. In a perfect world we would have quantum entangled devices that allowed us to have instant transmission of data and every player would see exactly what is happening in real time. But we don't, so, the "favor the shooter" technique has become the standard in the industry because is the best option to prevent situations like the gif that @MB666 posted or the killer being able to kill you through a pallet as much as possible.
It is the perfect solution that always do the correct thing? No, but it is better than if there wasn't any lag compensation at all as back in the day.
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Here you have the conclusion to that problem:
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That's what every survivor says everytime they does something that isn't 100% a buff or advantage to survivors, whatever it is or the reason behind it.
Have they released a killer that needs me to put effort in learning how to go against it? Killers are OP, BHVR is babying them.
They remove a bugged feature that allowed survivors to break the game and be immune? BHVR is so killer sided, they don't want survivors to have fun.
They introduce something to the game that is an obvious advantage to survivors? You are doing a great job, BHVR! The game is fun again, perfectly balanced now. Killers that don't like it are babies and just need to git gud!
Come on...
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bro ion care that i preserve my momentum nor im reading allat i just need my fast vaults to give me some distance away the window like they did prior to this patch💀
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They didnt fully transition to a dedicated server model and saying so is frankly misleading. They added some validation and used them as a medium to stabilize ping. Client is still almost the sole authority for killers in almost all cases.
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You are wrong, as like I said, there is no reason to have a validation server if the clients are the ones processing all the data (ergo, the clients are doing the "validation"). I think you are confused with a "matchmaking server", needed even in a P2P infrastructure and like it's name make clear, it's sole reason of existence is allow matchmaking people in the same lobby. It doesn't does any kind of validation, it doesn't have any more authority than joining people to play together.
DbD uses a dedicated server infrastructure, and the client has almost not authority over the game these days (reason of no seeing as much hacking as before). But if you read the contrary anywhere, would be nice if you posted the source.
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Have they released a killer that needs me to put effort in
learningpredict/guess how to go against it? Killers are OP, BHVR is babying them.there. Fixed it for you.
They remove a bugged feature that allowed survivors to break the game and be immune? BHVR is so killer sided, they don't want survivors to have fun.
I presume you are talking about "fast vaults". They were originally designed so, that if you finish the fast vault, you don't get hit behind the window - which didn't work and they tried to tackle it. They broke it, so the answer was to a, reintroduce this bug b, actually delete fast vaults from the game altogether. It makes very little sense now to try to fast vault in this patch as they are about as slow as mid vault (yes - they no longer take 0.5s as they should) - and a lot of killers already adjusted and go for hits that are just insane in hopes that new vaults will carry them. But it speaks volumes about you if you consider double-bugged (actually tripple-bugged - females still have shorter vault distance then males) survivor vaults fine and it being unreasonable for survivors to ask for a prompt fix.
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You keep saying "predict/guess", but you also say Nemesis's whip is fair when the time difference of charging and attack time are centiseconds and people dodge both successfully. Logic not found.
They tried to fix a bug, introduced more bugs (I literally hit a window having an Ash at 1 meter that was just started to do a vault. He become invincible the moment he started to vault) but that doesn't matters, they reverted it because of killers, not because they were even more bugged than before.
But whatever you say, dude.
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