Vaulting Speed
Why are vaulting speed nerfed? Fast vaulting is not a thing anymore.
Comments
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Fast vaults (for male survivors) are just as they have always been. No difference. Fast vaults still exist.
It's just that female survivors are bugged and don't get the full distance of the fast vault, which in turn results in slower vault speeds as well.
The reason they reverted the changes to fast vaults is probably that this caused numerous issues like survivor i-frames, animations not working properly and even the bug with male and female survivors. It's likely they try to fix these issues and will reintroduce the changes at a later point.
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Welcome to era of medium vaults
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(killer was from denmark, usually they have pings below 80. i'm from germany with a 40 ping)
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So this is a textbook example of people not understanding how big the survivor's hitbox actually is.
Your character model is overlayed with a hit box that is a little bit bigger than the size of the actual character. It's shaped like a capsule as well and it doesn't follow you perfectly. Instead it kind of lags behind you a bit during things like vaults.
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Its not nerfed. Its bugged to go slower somehow when they reverted the changes to fast vaults to prevent the same situation from happening vice versa if they only reverted male vaults. Funny how in the end males still end up vaulting further.
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You do realize that the fast vaults we had prior to the ones where male survivors went further were also bugged, right?
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In what way? Because they were working in the exact same way they had been working for more than 4 years (last changes were in patch 2.3.0).
It was never stated to be a bug by the devs. It was labelled as an issue, which can also mean an oversight in coding (like Spirit's and Bubba's addons). Or killers not looking down after a successful hit. However that would also imply, that we never actually had the "right" fast vaults before. Meaning you wouldn't even make this argument, if they had never tempered with fast vaults to begin with.
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Good point, maybe they could show us an animation how the hit box while vaulting looks like. Also how the m1 hitbox looks like at windows.
Survivors complain they get hit after vaults and killers complain there are I-frame's with vaults.
A small animation could clear these things up.
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I honestly don't think there are any i-frames on vaults at least not intentionally.
To me it has always seemed like when I miss a window hit that it's due to latency not being on my side at the moment or I wasn't close enough to get the hit.
If there is i-frames I would suspect they're a consequence of the spaghetti code. Sometimes it is honestly had to tell and for as in depth as wiki is it this one area where they just don't mention it.
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We are currently investigating some inconsistencies with vaulting between male and female Survivors. I do not have an ETA for a fix at the moment, unfortunately.
There's a couple incorrect things I need to clarify here.
- The cone that is used for basic attacks are not the same for all special attacks, such as The Xenomorph's tail. The tail attack happens to be much more narrow and longer than the basic attack's zone.
- That screenshot is fairly old, so the capsules don't quite line up with the animations as well as they do now.
- Your capsule does not lag behind you, it matches your movements perfectly. The issue that you'll usually run into is that - being an online game - where you see you and where the other players see you are two different things. It takes time to send your location to the server and for the server to send that information to everyone else. This means that while you see yourself having already vaulted, the Killer sees you slightly in the past where you are still near the window. We do some magic to reduce the effects of latency, but it cannot be removed completely.
All that said, the hit in that clip is well within the reasonable margin for even a lower latency. The tail attack does indeed reach that far, and it would likely still be overlapping the survivor's capsule (both from the Survivor's POV, but especially from the Killer's POV).
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Thanks for the info! Do we know if the "fixed" fast vaults will come back after the bugs get fixed or is there no such plan at the moment ?
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Would it possible to get a more updated version of these screenshots? Ideally for all Killers and their abilities?
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idk how "fall down" vaults work, but that vault is pretty late and a free hit at a normal window. so it looks weird but i'm not that surprised honestly.
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The latest fast vaults seem alot slower than the OG (pre buff) ones, even for male survivors. There seem to be barely any speed difference between medium and fast vaults. When comparing clips between the OG and new vaults there’s definitely a noticeable difference
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I think it was a very lame move from the devs to "fix" vaults almost after 5 years of they work the way they worked. The could call it a balance change, as its was never adressed as a known issue in any patch note i've seen prior to the change.
Anyway, for me, the vaults before Nick Cage were fine, i don't think they need to change anything, as most of hits comes more from latency than any other thing; also, some killer as Deathslinger or Huntress were missing their powers in midvaults as it were giving survivors iframes during the animation.
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pls , take this reference , the current vaults are NOT fine... neither working as intended either ; now your capsule hitbox does not gain any distance after fast vaulting meaning that the killer can hit you even after you finished the animation completly , and the only way to avoid this is holding forward which is not an option is we take latency in mind , making fast vaulting even worst.
LOW LATENCY VAULTS (NO VAULT SPEED PERKS USED) This is how they used to work giving enough distance to prevent a hit.
OLD: (keeps momentun while also sending the survivor hitbox to a decent distance in order to prevent a m1 hit from connecting because your hitbox goes further unlike a medium vault).
Current fast vaults?: (your hitbox gains 0 distance after vaulting - pretty much the same as a medium vault - also your hitbox ends closer to the window which also expands the window of time for killer to hit you there unless you move forward which is bad.
PLS send this proof to the devs , fast vaulting was already bad with latency and the fact that there is no validation on vaults but now the current fast vaults are worst than before.
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Thanks for the clarification!
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I agree with Peanits that latency take a role but other games do better of course because the servers on DBD are very bad even vs same country players.
Take CS for example (i know it's fps and servers tickrate are better but still)
Another example TCM that you can actually play with cross continental players.
And those are just 2 examples ... so yeah in the end Latency play a role but this argument seems invalid for me.
What needs to be changed is DBD code and servers be more capable.
Lastly i have a teory:
"Devs wanted to nerf the vault and baited it on PTB" to lure it's a bug or something reverted because only a MAGIC can not bring the PTB changes and still mess with before PTB vaults ... seems like some genius coding.
Post edited by rafajsp on0 -
No the male vaults before this patch were definitely bugged. They were never like that before
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The topic of latency happens to be one I'm very invested in, but I gotta clarify some more things here.
First and foremost, the servers are not bad. The servers we use are the exact same servers used by many other games, including many popular FPSs. It has absolutely nothing to do with the servers being less powerful than others. This isn't a stretch or an exaggeration either, some of the exact same servers had been used for other games before being used for DBD and vice versa.
The issue with a game like Dead by Daylight specifically is that the gameplay is not like an FPS. In an FPS, two players tend to run toward each other before they fight. Once they're in the fight, movement tends to become a non-factor (server-wise). It might affect who sees who first, but from that moment on it relies almost entirely on who has the better aim, the better weapon for that situation, etc. In DBD, one player is chasing another for an extended period of time. During a chase, latency is a factor the entire time because the Killer is constantly trying to get just barely close enough to land a hit. There is never a point where the latency stops mattering.
This isn't a problem that's exclusive to DBD either, even FPSs have latency issues in different ways. The most common problem is something called "peeker's advantage". In short, this is when someone peeks out from a corner. Since other players see them slightly behind where they are, the person peeking actually gets a split second advantage where they can see other people before other people can see them.
There are some clever ways to minimize things like this. One is to 'project' where someone is moving and subtly adjust their position for other players. This way, what other people see tends to be a little closer to what that person sees. (We do this in Dead by Daylight as well.) Another way is to slow the "acceleration" of your character which makes it impossible to rapidly change direction. This can make it easier for the server to accurately predict your movement, but it comes at the cost of making movement feel worse for the player. This is okay in some games that are meant to be more realistic, but it's not a fit for all games; Dead by Daylight included. People often need to change directions, so having a slow deceleration and acceleration wouldn't feel very good at all.
In reality, it's not a code or server issue. The issue is and will always be latency itself. It takes time for data to physically travel from one place in the world to another. We use some tricks to minimize that latency and bring what both players see closer together, but there's no way to truly remove it.
But the very long story short, we can't really compare it to a game like an FPS because they are two entirely different scenarios. The problems latency causes in this game are not like the problems latency can cause in an FPS because the gameplay is fundamentally different.
As for the theory, no. We do not intentionally change something as important and core to the game as vaulting without clearly communicating about it first. This is purely a bug, nothing more. We implemented a fix recently, but this had a side effect of making fast vaults stronger than before. This was later reverted. We're currently working on addressing the discrepancies between male and female Survivors.
Post edited by Peanits on5 -
They are aware of it. Peanits said it himself. There are "some inconsistencies with vaulting between male and female Survivors". What you showed us is exactly that. Play a male survivor and compare their fast vaults. Male survivors still get the normal distance and do not get hit right after a fast vault.
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Can someone explain to me how we ended up here in the first place?
So what was the intended change when the got whole "males vault fast than females"-thing happened? Did the devs try to make fast vaults more safe or what was the reason why they touched it at all?
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so far they dont , as killer I still can hit them after they fully finished the animation it looks like they vault further than females because their model is bigger visually in reality they dont vault any further it just visual , their hitbox is still at hit range after fully fast vaulting their capsule hitbox is still ends closer to the windows but their visual model is slightly further compared to females
I ALREADY DID A TEST WITH FRIENDS AND YEP IS JUST THE SAME AS BS AS FEMALES NO DIFFERENCE
both male and female are vaulting the same distance but the thing is that males do look like they vault further because they have bigger models and they look like they land forward but thats a lie , trust me , just play test this , they both can be hit in the window in the exact same way.
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I just think its better to just adapt and get used to fast vaults, as always, not being completely safe and basically being equivalent to medium vaults. Even when it seems you completely finished the vaulting animation and still get hit. It wont ever get better anyways.
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Even after a dev confirmed that your first gif was not how vaults should work, it seems like you still have the misconception that the vaults "aren't working as intended" because the killer can hit you during or after it.
As far as official information goes, fast vaults allows you to vault in 0.5 seconds in comparation with 0.9 for medium and 1.5 for slow and allows you to maintain your momentum after vaulting. They were never intended to make you immune to damage during the vault or make you gain so much distance that you are out of the attack range automatically when the animation finish.
The only sources that says the contrary (at least the ones I found) are other survivors claiming it. Not even the wiki mention anything about fast vaulting making you gain any distance in comparation with the other vault types.
Post edited by Batusalen on1 -
how many times am gonna say this , this is at LOW PING , and thats how vaults should work across all type of pings , if you have a ping over 60 ms , thats bad ping to modern standards , like thats why people already want validation on windows and pallets ; killers with over 60+ ping get validated pretty little compared to killers with good connections , and that shouldnt be the case ; Not to mention that the server consider GOOD PING any value below 100 ms , if you as killer have higher ping you should get punished with hits getting rejected or validated like currently pallets work if the survivor has better ping than you , they should get priority over you instead of viceversa
(high ping killers need more punishments than low ping killers honestly is getting absurd how often you get rewarded by lag).
Been playing this game for over 5 years already , yeah is not like we dont have evidence about how fast vaults used to work right? yeah..............right.........🙄
you can pretty much see how much of a difference there is compared to a medium vault - distance momentun.
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First of all, "0 ping" don't exist in a multiplayer game unless it is peer 2 peer and you are the host of the game, or you are running the server in your computer. Even in a LAN, with two computers one besides the other, you don't have "0 ping".
Second, fast internet speed has little to do with your ping. There is a lot of factors that can affect the latency you have (stability of the connection, distance to the server, being connected with cable or WiFi, and even the RJ45 cable you are using).
So, what that video shows is a lot of missed hits, that has nothing to do with how much latency the killer had, unlike the first gif you posted where it is obviously a hit that didn't happen because the lag of the survivor and / or how hitboxes worked in the day.
And yes, you have evidence of how they used to work. Now, show me your official source that says that's how they should work. Because again, not even in the official wiki there is any mention of fast vaulting giving you any more distance than the other vaults, much less it being more than enough for you to be out of reach, and even less that you can't be hit during or after it. They allow you to vault faster, maintain your momentum, and probably it would also give you some advantage by changing the hitbox so it is harder to hit you while doing the vault.
The funny thing is that I'm not even against the fast vault giving you more distance or saying that is not how it should be, but again, it is an open and unobstructed space and if you are inside my attack reach, whatever is during the vault or after it, you should be hit. Simple as that.
Post edited by Batusalen on0 -
Notice the part where the tail literally collides with the survivor?
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whatever ,not going even gonna try , you just gonna excuse everything by the sake of keeping things unfair just because you dont know how the game used to work at lower latencies or maybe you are a player that always plays on higher latencies , maybe that why you think vaults should be this generous for killer, which i understand survivor is busted right now with the MFT meta still , but keeping vaults in a terrible and really weaker spot shouldnt be a thing to balance things around + it makes killer really easier reducing the skill cap of looping , soo yeah , WHATEVER moving on.
high ping killers be like:
I got you barely by touching 1 pixel of your hitbox so it must connect. *hits the air*
(Ihey literally got the hit from miles away after the survivor finished the vault)3 -
Wanting to be able to hit the survivor as long as it is in my range attack through an open space = Not wanting things fair, as survivors should become immune because they don't like getting hits that they don't want. Got it, makes sense.
Nice talking with you.
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They didn’t give additional speed or distance or even allow you to maintain your current speed. They did the exact same thing as medium vaults. And they were acknowledged by the devs as being bugged—which was why they were altered/fixed/changed into the mega fast vaults that were dialed back. Peanits just mentioned it above. It’s the whole reason why fast vaults were recently changed at all: they were bugged. Lol
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because of the bugged vaulting speed which is the topic of this thread
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Looks like we will be enjoying medium vaults for at least a month
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It is ridiculous. How can something so essential to the game be so broken and the quality testers not notice?
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I am kinda confused tbh. Peanits says they are trying to fix the worse female vaults, but whats about the vault speed? Even though the survivors get the intended distance, the fast vaults still gonna be as fast as the medium?
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I'm not sure if you're purposedly circling around the problem to avoid discussing it directly, but whilst "0 ping" doesn't exist in a multiplayer game, it is a fact that hit validation in DBD only occurs when a killer is getting stunned by a pallet. There is no hit validation when vaulting windows or pallets, or when predropping a pallet, which is why killers with higher ping get an advantage (hit validation on every case other than pallet stuns happens on the killer's end), as the survivors hitboxes on their screen don't match where the survivors actually are.
This is why people advocate for a functioning hit validation system, because this will bring killers with a better connection on par with killers with a worse connection. The video posted showcases killers (and survivors) with good connection where the survivor hitbox matches almost perfectly the pov of the survivor themselves
So again, it boils down to: "the server should decide, so the player with the best connection gets the advantage" because as of now, it is not fair
For reference, when I mentioned predropping pallets, I meant that situations like this can happen and they aren't even fairly uncommon:
In this case there is no validation involved because there was no stun involved since the killer was too far, but on the killer's screen the pallet hadn't even been dropped
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"the server should decide, so the player with the best connection gets the advantage"
And here is where all your other points fall down. The server not just "decide" anything based on "the player with the best connection". I already did multiple post of how lag compensation on a dedicated server infrastructure works in more or less detail, so if you are interested, look through the forum or look it in google.
What I see there is an spike of lag or packets getting lost for any of those players. Again, lag compensation isn't perfect, it can only work effectively between a threshold of latency between players, but as long as the connections are stable and someone is not lagging like hell it compensates for the difference. Of course, what those lag compensation techniques do and how exactly work are on BHVR, but even if they implemented the best lag compensation in the market today, it would still do nothing on some situations. It's just how latency in gaming is, we can mitigate it's effects, but until we have some way of having "0 ping" (in other words, instant transmission of data) in every client it is how it is: Sometimes you would get hits that you shouldn't, other times you would get a free pass on hits that should have hit you.
Also, if I'm correct in assuming that they implemented the industry standard of "favoring the shooter" like in any action game, everytime you drop a pallet and stunt the killer you have the advantage on that hit (that's why sometimes, even if the killer have obviously hit you, you are able to drop the pallet anyway and viceversa, even when the killer clearly see that he has hit you it is stunned and you don't get hit).
In other words: You guys are talking either without understanding the base concepts of gaming networking or based on how the game worked when it was peer to peer when the game works now through dedicated servers.
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They were definitely given iframes - I doubt intentionally.
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Thanks BHVR for the new vaults
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