MFT defenders confuse me
As an honest question, what redeems this perk for you?
edit:rewording this post to sound less confrontational
Comments
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You know, every killer power and every loop length in the game is calculated based on the survivor speed of 4.0m/s
Surely nothing will go wrong if we change that variable, right? Right?? 🤣
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honestly I feel like thats giving BHVR too much credit. those values were decided at release, back when they had absolutely no idea how to balance the game...
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It's only 3% 5head smh. Self aware is 20%!!!! Nerf Self Aware, buff MFT!!
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Multiple facets, but first, take the Endurance out back and do what you will with it, and by that I mean maybe put it onto Solidarity instead or something.
The first point, opportunity cost. Other than DH, you can't use it with any other Exhaustion perk, and I think against all Killers, Sprint Burst is always the best perk. Even if they stack it with DH, that means they are doubly vulnerable to anti-Exhaustion effects, so it mostly evens out.
Second, haste stacking's removal will have bad unintended consequences. Removing haste stacking will nerf Clown and Skull Merchant, yet keep Blight the same, due to Blight's add-ons modifying the speed formula, instead of applying a Haste effect. Same with Spirit, and all other stronger faster Killers, they modify the formula instead of giving haste.
Third, nearly every Killer has a method to deal with MfT with the exception of maybe Doctor. Maybe a few more Killers, but not Killers that are enjoyable to go against as Survivor, so it only meets fire with fire of 'unfun' (looking at you Trickster). Stealth Killers can take their free hit, power damaging Killers can damage with their power, and so on.
Fourth, it basically only provides an anti-lag compensatory differential when the Killer mindgames. Similar to Resilience buffing Fast Vaults from .5s to .455s, saving .045s, it basically only saves enough time where it only matters to negate the natural 'lagvantage' of Killer. If a Killer mindgames at all, the Survivor has to reset to check points, and outside of Shack and certain full jungle gym loops, there is no guarantee of safety at all on most filler loops' check points.
Fifth, Bloodlust exists, and only god pallets can burn it. Bloodlust 1 already shifts the speed differential to .68m/s, so you have an advantage over normal chase still existing, and Bloodlust 2 gives you .88m/s differential, or nearly a 50% bonus from the healthy/non-MfT difference. It takes 15s to reach BL1, and 25s to reach BL2. If you NEED a down, you can reliably get one as long as you didn't get perk randomized into Rapid Brutality.
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You absolutely can use MFT with exhaustjon perks (to include SB). SB needs a true 99 and you can't stop running but it's doable.
20% distance on every meter isn't just lag advantage, it's a massive advantage. Just the same way Resi isn't only good for lag, it turns certain pallets into god pallets as well as let you react slower to vaults (especially mid vaults).
It's already been shown a dozen ways how not every killer has a way to counter MFT, and in fact, most of them that can "coumter" it simply play around it, but ok.
Haste stacking is fine, MFT is not. If there's problem with other haste perks, then nerf those as well.
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So how do you explain the existence of killer haste perks? Rapid Brutality, PWYF, Coup, Machine Learning, Furtive Chase. Do you also think all of these should be reworked out of principle?
Don't be mistaken - I think MFT is busted for a few reasons, but I like the general idea of speed-variance through haste and hindrance effects being in play on either side.
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your post makes no sense. a 99% SB = Exhausted. you cannot use MFT when you are exhausted. the only perk where MFT does work with exhaustion is DH. DH is only perk to work with MFT because it is only exhaustion perk that triggers at very end of the chase. when DH does trigger, DH disables MFT. I thought about writing post in regards to why resilience is an overrated perk for vault speed but it took 2 paragraph so I decided to skip it.
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Mft is long term haste. Killer ones are typically short term and come with a catch.
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he said "True 99". Essentially, a true 99ed sprint burst is when the exhaustion timer ends at the exact same time you begin running. The game processes this as SB not yet triggering, even though you are running adn there is no exhaustion. So essentially its a 99d sprint burst with no exhaustion. it can be hard to accomplish, but it is very possible. MFT does have synergy with SB in this way but its really not enough to warrant running the two together.
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In all fairness those all have timers or extreme limiters. RB needs a hit and only lasts an effective 7.3 seconds. PWYF requires you to spend at least 36 seconds to build stacks quickly and loses tokens on swing. Coup requires a gen to pop and will use a token even if you didnt use the extra distance +caps at 5 so unless you are trying to use them you'll lose value. Machine learning also requires gens to pop, and furtive chase requires a hook on a specific survivor+duartion. A notable trend is that all of them have limiting activation conditions and either go away after getting value or go away after a set duration. This is in contrast to MFT, which requires you to simply be injured. While certainly a clear activation condition I would not say its a limiting one. MFT also is permanent and does not go away after getting value. I feel all haste perks should follow the former criteria, which MFT does not.
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Discussing specific perk balance is cool. I only object against closing the discussion by saying "haste = bad because loops are designed with a specific speed difference in mind".
Otherwise my main objection is that MFT is two perks in one - a chase perk and an Endurance perk. That's about the two strongest effects on the survivor side. It's killer equivalent would be a gen-regression perk that also provides aura read.
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Its similar to original pain resonance in a way. Old PR already provided some of the strongest regression the game had ever seen, combining that with telling you where the gen with the most progress is AND how many people were on it was just too much.
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agreed, I don't use MFT I don't care if it's nerfed but if MFT is broken then play with your food and new chase merchant are giga broken. Need some coherence/consistency, if 3% is a problem then 15% of 4.6m/s is game breaking too
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Personal, I think MFT has a very limited limiter, which makes it too good to always run consistently, even without exhaustion Perks in your build. You can in theory used Balanced Landing, Smash Hit, and Dead Hard, and Lithe too; as it takes awhile before you decide to trigger them by special circumstances. Sprint Burst and new Background Player will not be a fantastic choice, due to the perk triggering more often. Of course, Once any of the exhaustion perks are trigger, it is deactivated; until you recover from exhaustion.
However, this perk has no real downsides agaisnt non exhaustion survivors, which makes it a awesome meta defined perk; for the sake that 3% increase movement speed while injured all the time; makes this Perks super useful in chase and makes a huge difference.
In short summary, it needs one more limiter to ensure that non exhaustion perk users cannot abuse the unlimted increase movement speed.
You could, make the perk slowly build up exhaustion as you are constantly sprinting and you can no longer used dead hard after used your newfound increase movement speed perk for a like more then 45 seconds. But, that won't be enough, you can add one more downside besides becoming exhausted, in which the perk will also apply hindrance after 45 seconds. That way, MFT is only good for the first minute chase, but not if you are extending the chase for more then a minute as the debuff will make you vulnerable in mobility and exhaustion.
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Nothing 'redeems' it, I just think the specific criticisms levied against it are often wrong or misleading.
There are issues with it, and I won't defend the perk in general, but I will defend it from arguments that the 3% Haste itself is inherently broken and can never be considered balanced. I don't believe that to be true; nothing 'redeems' the perk from this complaint because the complaint doesn't hold water to begin with.
Conditional speed boosts are nothing new, and I think it's interesting to have a sustained boost rather than a burst of speed as is the norm. With the right changes, it'll have a good place in the game and might encourage people to deviate from the normal Exhaustion perks due to it either straight up literally not working with the strongest options (Sprint Burst, Overcome) or requiring you to play in such a way that pairing makes both perks weaker for the less strong options (Lithe, Balanced). The perks it does work with are either less commonly run to begin with (IE, Smash Hit) or they're weak enough that it doesn't matter (Dead Hard).
I would also like to see anti-Exhaustion made more consistent, to achieve the same effect of making Exhaustion perks less of an obvious best-in-class, but that's a different topic.
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Tell me you don't know what a true 99 looks like without telling me.
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What exactly do you think is 99% in this scenario? I'm genuinely curious now.
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The "consistency" is that every single haste perk requires you to do very specific actions or have a limiter in tokens / time based.
To get the 15% from PWYF you have to find your obsession, start chase, leave chase, wait for token, rinse and repeat.
every single swing / Special attack also removes a token.
Rapid? hit someone, get 5% for 10 seconds.
Dark theory? Must place boon , then 24m radius around boon for 2%.
Power of two? must stick close to your teammate.
etc etc.
Meanwhile MFT sticks out like a sore thumb.
Got hit? heres a permanent 3% speed while you're injured, you also get a 10s endurance effect if you heal someone else as a bonus.
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I do not see survivors running Sprint burst +MFT. your complaint is like complaining that self-care+no mither is too strong.
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You can also completely ignore the downside of being injured by 99ing a heal. Just tap heal if the killer gets too close to get a full heal state. The reality is, there is no downside to having MFT.
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I've never understood the argument that MFT is a "fun" perk for survivors... Fun is ofc not objectively quantifiable as it is subjective, but in MFTs case the argument doesn't make sense.
The effect is very subtle to the point visually its hard to tell the difference. Usually the defence for MFT is "its only 3%", which if that were true, you have to ask "if its only 3% and that isn't really doing anything, why do you and every other odd player out there run it?". In order for it to have any value, it has to be subtle but potent at increasing your ability to loop, especially against the weaker killers on the roster...
By this logic, MFT by virtue of what it does itself can't really be "fun" since you can't really see it in effect... successfully looping the killer more times is what is actually "fun"... but only achieving that with the crutch of MFT just makes it non sensicle to me... it's like you succeeded way more, but you needed a flat increase in your stats to do it cause you weren't good enough to do it otherwise...
So the perk doesn't really have anything to redeem it to my mind... it targets the wrong killers, artificially increases a players success rate when looping, doesn't bring anything new or interesting to the game....
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-And makes BHvR look incompetent as all get out.
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Except if by chance the killer has anything that applies Hemorrhage to that, but because Hemorrhage isn't basekit; so yes; you can 99% heals, as well as 99% Exit gate switches at Endgame (to avoid Endgame Collapse and tap it to get massive results)
But yes, you and I are in the same boat, MFT definitely barely any noticeable downside. It's not like Killer's can always apply exhaustion to every attack they make to complete counter this perk, without addons/perks to help. It absolutely needs massively downside, for it's insane permanent movement speed increase while injured.
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Not on the MFT team, but you can find even worse: people defending nurse kekw
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Umm, more than a full health-state, as MFT grants you Endurance on top of that.
Please don't tell this to survivors - very few seem to realize just how broken MFT actually is.
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I'm a killer main, and even I think Nurse needs some nerfs.
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No exhaustion, SB hasn't activated yet. AKA, you're using MFT, you walk for a second and you pop SB.
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The frame perfect fake 99 still counts as Exhausted. You can bring Dramaturgy and test it out, and it won't let you use Dramaturgy while running at the fake 99, so you are still considered Exhausted, thus no MfT.
The 20% is only in hold-W scenarios, as I said, mindgames reset to looping check points, which sets you only at the .12m/s extra.
What Killer doesn't have access to Bloodlust? I already accounted for the general case scenarios, and you gave no specific Killers that can't counter it.
The relevant ping is on the Killer's end, and I frequently get given 8 timezone apart VPNing Killers abusing 'lagvantage' when playing as Survivor. I have 30-40 ping on my server on average, but those miscreants (specifically the 8 timezone apart Killers) have a perma red-bar, and do get hits from Mars.
As far as both MfT and Resil being anti-lag, that is their rough function in a normal loop. I wasn't talking about alternative uses as well, specifically in chase alone. Even then, Resil compared to the old 80s gens still slows them down to ~82.5s, so skill can still prevail quite easily. Also like I said in the above reply, when you reset someone with a mindgame within a loop, MfT loses the distance advantage and only has the .12m/s, which functions as anti-lag and little more.
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Meh you forgot the most important haste, bloodlust 1 and it's not hard to get it's just normal gameplay and basekit, new SM has permanent haste and slow effects if you complain about mft you should complain about that too it's unfair, any % speed of 115 is also much much stronger than % speed of 100
even PWYF stacks if you play any tombstone Myers you know stacks are not that hard to get and it's much more powerful than mft, very often in my games I'm convinced someone has mft and they don't in end game screen, they're just good, I can't tell if someone has it 90% of the time
anyway what do you propose for a nerf ? delete endurance and 2% speed ? people will complain forever even at 1% speed
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It's not worth it, because while it's possible, any exhaustion+MFT combination will yield more value (with DH being the strongest synergy). Your statement was "it can't be done". I'm simply stating that it can, indeed, be done. And MFT can absolutely be used with an exhaustion perk to provide a second, second chance. MFT on its own without an exhaustion perk is problematic. MFT with DH is just an insult. MFT with DH+Resi+Hope spread across 4 different survivors with genrush boxes and a map offering is what killers have had to deal with lately.
Squads like this are already extremely tough for a low tier killer to deal with. MFT just makes this an impossible situation to win.
And no, it's not like No Mither Self Care, because No Mither makes it IMPOSSIBLE to use Self Care. SB+MFT can be used together, it just requires a lot of baby sitting, and is suboptimal, but it's DOABLE. They're not mutually exclusive.
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The fact you even think "just bloodlust it" is a proper argument in defense of MFT showcases just how problematic the perk is. Bloodlust on its own is very problematic already, and can be used as a crutch by killers to guarantee hits in a lot of situations. It was implemented as a band-aid to map design (something that still hasn't been fixed), and is an imperfect band-aid. BL2-3 shouldn't exist, nor should MFT.
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You mean the same bloodlust that only triggers after 15s in chase + gets reset everytime you break a pallet or try to use power and is therefore not a factor on the great majority is killers?
SM doesn't have "permanent haste", you get the haste effect IF the survivor is radar trackable + the hinder only applies IF the survivor got radar'd 3 times and got a clawtrap AND IF the survivor gets radar'd again for 6 seconds.
also my brother in christ, the haste % means the same ammount of meters per second on both roles.
PWYF Stacks are hard to get, they require you to fake chase a very specific person 3 times, wasting almost a minute just for 3 tokens that will go away when you swing.
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The nerf MFT deserves is literally the simplest of things.
Endurance effect removed, and MFT is only up for 30s after being injured, then it deactivates until healthy again.
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Well actually haste does apply differently to each side, or its just in 1 instance with clown because the developers thought it would be funny
it was confirmed clowns yellow gas was a 10% increase meaning it makes survivors move 10% faster and clown move 11.5% faster
so haste works as a percentage increased based on your base speed / power that modifies base speed
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i see 2 med-kits with over-time instant heal and one guy with stypic needle. not 4 toolboxes like you describe. none of your survivors have MFT+Sprint burst. your first post I have ever seen complain about SB+MFT. i was just wondering if you run this as your survivor build.
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"Just Bloodlust it" is a defense against player incompetence. I can down people with MfT with minimal skin off my back. This is a game that needs comeback mechanics for weaker players, thus Bloodlust 3 exists. I personally like the concept of Bloodlust as Survivor, because it takes an expression of skill to burn the Killer's Bloodlust, and thematically fits the idea of an ever looming threat getting more deadly over time (as Killer it helps end boring situations that don't involve skill sooner). A stun removes 1 level, and a kick removes all. I can't adequately tell people how to engage in chase that they haven't already discovered on their own, or sought out tutorial videos that describe my knowledge far better than I could put into words.
I can down MfT users with Trapper/Wraith/Billy/Nurse/Myers/Hag/Huntress/Bubba/Freddy/Pig/Clown/Spirit/Legion/Plague/Ghosty/Demo/Oni/Slinger/Blight/Twins/Nemmy/Pinhead/Artist/OnionRing/Dredge/Wesker/Knight/Sing/Xeno. The only missing Killers are Doc, who I already acknowledged is legit countered, Pyramid Head because I suck at aiming as him, Trickster because I haven't played him outside of dailies so I don't actually know, and new SM, because I haven't bothered to play her yet, but the on-demand Stealth with no sound cues seems like a free win for my playstyle, even against MfT. Even if I were to say those 4 Killers are hard countered at the same level as Doc, that still leaves Sprint Burst hard countering all Killers with any stealth elements, which far outnumber 4.
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When survivors use it and I play killer, they seem to have fun with it. I like that.
When I survivor, I don't use it so I don't much care about it from that side right now. But, I think in the future I might have time to make something out of it.
No deeper than that.
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As it should. By default, they already are faster than survivor. And even with mft, killers still are.....by default. And they get bloodlust.
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With mft, it causes an issue for weaker m1 killers. They can barely afford chases, and with mft, survivors can get to more loops causing them to literally be immune to chases without the killer losing several gens in the process. On top of that, mft and hope causes survivors to literally run just as fast as some killers. It's a problem.
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While I understand the sentiment not all haste is created equal. SM's haste/hinder is very strong but it has specific activtions conditions and areas of effects.
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I don't really think she needs nerfs to her basekit but additions that add counterplay. With her addon nerfs and special attack change shes at least manageable in chase (though soloQ teammates wont care), but she doesnt interact with regular dbd enough. bringing back stun-fatigue and lightburn etc would probably be the perfect change.
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why should mft not follow that same rule? the 15% difference is a core part of dbd's design, forcing into 12% is devastating for lower tier killers.
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You've been arguing against a strawman for so long, frankly, I considered not engaging. You said MFT can't be used with any exhaustion perks outside DH, I said that's demonstrably false, to include SB. I never said it was optimal, I said they could be used together; and they can.
If you wanna see 4 man genrush boxes or more egregious MFT stacking, I can dig up screenshots. That happened to be a game I played right before replying, so I posted the screenshot. Any time there's a 100% incentive on killer, that is 3/5 lobbies that I run into.
No, Bloodlust just makes the game stale and stupid if the killer decides to commit to BL3 for every hit, in the same way old Legion was stale and stupid. There is no skill expression involved in removing BL, just RNG. If you get bad loop chains and the killer decides to BL, you are getting hit regardless. I've seen far too many Onryos sending themselves to Lerys/RPD and spamming teleport until someone is fully condemned, then chasing them with BL3 until they get the down. It's uninteractive and requires very little skill.
I don't know who started the rumor that BL loses one stack on stun but it needs to stop. This has never been the case. Only time BL is affected is when a pallet is broken, or power is used, or a hit is made, or chase is lost.
If you can down all of those players with MFT, you're playing against bad players. I'd be more than happy to hop in a 1v1 with you, where you use SB and I use MFT, and we can test who lasts longer. Killer of my choice of course, and amongst the ones you named.
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it can be used with some other exhaustion but it removes uptime of MFT. lower uptime makes the perk less effective. this is why I do not understand your complaint about a perk that is inactive for most of the match. @mizark3 point is that bloodlust exists for players like you that struggle to play m1 killers and complain about MFT.
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The fact that this is even a thing is ridiculous. While the huntress could have played better here, a direct route around should not take more than a few seconds around a small bush. It is worst by far in standard loops.
This is just silly.
You literally GAIN DISTANCE vs a killer due to survivor hitboxes being smaller.
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You can 99% sprint burst to the point where you're not exhausted anymore. It's pretty hard to do tho.
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Ornyos destroying soloq, who would have guessed /s. Lery's, assuming the initial spam TP which gave the team 100s to find a single tape, has significantly safe setups with windows and pallets (around the corner to be fair, if you know the map, you know its fairly connected). Near everything chains with one another, so all you need to do as Surv is force a single kick, or a teammate taking a bodyblock which resets Bloodlust, then takes 16 real, or 32 gen seconds to heal back up and take another forced bodyblock.
It very much is a Survivor skill to manage a Killers Bloodlust. I agree there isn't much skillful going on for Killer, but that is exactly who it is meant to help, those Killers without skill, or the situations that are devoid of skill (triple vault windows that don't allow for mindgames).
It isn't a rumor that BL drops a stack on stun. I went into a bot game myself and tested it out just prior to this post, it works. Maybe a stun is coded to lose chase for enough time that it sequentially drops 1 level but not more before they fade out, but a stun drops a level of Bloodlust.
The 1v1 fails because I win through more macro gameplay, not exclusively micro. I set up multiple 99's as Ghosty, intercepting would-be rescuers for hooks, ensuring certain gens stay worked or unworked, and burning pallets when I can't get downs that help me. I also am garbage at Survivor in comparison to Killer, so it would only be fair to compare my SB vs MfT times and your SB vs MfT, to which I'm sure we would call foul if the numbers favored SB in my playing as Surv chases and MfT in yours. If you want to use the 1v1 MfT and no MfT, we can use Otz v Hens for which I already did the math. Hens averaged 106s chases without MfT's speed boost, and 93.5s chases with MfT's speed boost. Hens lost ~12% chase time from either the overconfidence of MfT, or something else. I don't think anyone could try to claim Hens was trying to make MfT look bad, so that should be fair.
Edit: 'that that' -> 'but that' in 2nd paragraph
Edit 2: Also the 1v1 fails because as Trapper, I would have set numerous traps throughout the match, and the Survivors would have had the opportunity to disarm some/none/all of them. 1v1s fail to represent the realities of normal gameplay found in matches.
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the game only has two states for debuff's. exhausted and not exhausted. there is no half-exhausted. when Icon for exhaust disappears and you are running normal with SB, you are still exhausted but the game UI cannot tell difference between 99% and 99.5% because it is dealing with decimals. 99% which is 39 second/40 second and 99.5% which is 39.5 second/40 second are both exhausted. If you are not exhausted, you will activate sprint burst and become exhausted. @mizark3 mentions this interaction in one of his posts which I will quote as:
The frame perfect fake 99 still counts as Exhausted. You can bring Dramaturgy and test it out, and it won't let you use Dramaturgy while running at the fake 99, so you are still considered Exhausted, thus no MfT.
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