Why do people think Xenocat was overnerfed?
Like why? only significant nerf that comes to mind was the CD increase for missed attacks, which DID require a nerf.
What else we got though? the turrets no longer having like a second or two of immunity to dmg when emerging (god this was awful) and far, FAR better visual feedback on the tail attack that made it easier to use.
I played the cat quite a few times (And im not that great at him) And i dont feel like hes weak at all.
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There's nothing to know if it needed a nerf. The cooldown was bugged for two weeks and not applying. The fact he got both the bug fix and the CD nerf at the same time is an overnerf, because it's an over correction from his bugged state. 2.0m/s was already really slow for a cooldown.
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1.2 m/s wasn’t a huge complaint during the PTB. That portion didn’t need to be buffed.
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People most certainly did complain about how slow his CD was on the PTB. It got buffed from the PTB for that reason. We never got to see the intended 2.0m/s in action and BHVR nerfing it on the same patch as the bug fix was a bad move.
It just means that if anything is bugged to be stronger than intended, it's perfectly fine to nerf it in addition to the bug fix.
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^ this.
Nobody talked about this part being too weak. They buffed it out of nowhere without anyone asking for it. And even if it is now back to PTB-State (at least in this aspect), Xeno is fine. I am playing him a lot currently (mainly to get him to P9 before Chucky arrives), and I think he is good. Not S-Tier, but far from bad.
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The most significant nerf is how much smaller the hitbox is for the tail now compared to release. It's now so tiny it's not consistently hitting even when passing through survivor models visually.
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Of course people complained, but when do people not complain during a PTB? Now that Xeno has been out for almost 3 months, it’s now safe to judge his current status, and as someone who plays both sides, 1.2 m/s doesn’t hurt him if you’re good at the killer. All it does it give survivors an award for making a good prediction.
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He wasn’t overnerfed. He got nerfed to undo a buff that shouldn’t have ever happened. They realized their mistake and corrected it. Most of the other changes they made from the PTB were fine, but that one specific change wasn’t.
While it’s true that the cooldown was also bugged prior to the nerf, the bug didn’t occur 100% of the time and imo it still worked correctly often enough to see that it was too strong and not enough drawback for missing a tail attack.
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I'd like Xenomorph's tail attack hitbox to be more generous / less buggy. I've played against a few where I was wholly prepared to eat a hit and they just miss lol
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He wasn't, people just see the word nerf and think they "killed" the killer. Just like every god tier /s nurse and spirits that suddenly disappeared once the few ways to cheese with those killers were gone (and yet they're still S tiers)
Xeno is still really strong, basically a nemesis that starts in tier 2 already
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People are upset that they can't span the tail attack anymore, they don't care that Xeno was oppressive to the point of being unfun for survivors, only the killer is allowed to have fun. And I say this as a killer main.
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xeno is still extremely good, even bad killers can stomp with xeno lol.
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Missing with the tiny hitbox on top of the long cd, survivors being able to take your power away and hits going straight through survivors without registering simply feels unrewarding.
Alien was the biggest license for me and it just looks like the xeno is going the same path as Freddy on release.
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hahahahhaha
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The turrets arent even close to being as oppressive as you think, if you want oppressive look at poor Meatball with the EMPs, now those are oppressive.
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Yeah, it feels like a cruel joke, right? Oh poor Xeno-kitten, you were never allowed to truly shine. RIP.
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I think its more of an issue of the killer falling back into normal pick rates. There was a ton of people playing at first release, which is normal, then once the novelty wore off it just became another killer option.
I think that's just the arc of killers - at release everyone will want to give the killer a shot. After a few weeks some people will decide they don't care about the killer, others will put them into their killer rotation, why a few will make them a main.
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the cooldown was bugged but instead of just fixing it they fix the bug AND reduce it from 2.0 to 1.2. this makes him boring to play as because you cant try anything new without being punished harshly.
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People played bugged with lower cooldown, got used to it, started stomping with it, and then it got changed and they refused to adjust. That's pretty much it. Killer is still good just not ridiculous like she was before. If Killer isn't S-tier, they get dropped.
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I see less complaints about Xeno being overnerfed and more about the weird nerf to the cooldown for missed attacks. The devs clearly thought it was safe to buff it from the PTB but then Xeno was bugged, got complained about by survivors and instead of fixing the bug and letting us test the cooldown, they fixed it AND reverted the buff.
By the way, this was one of the major complaints on the PTB. I and many others said back then, that a power that has an in-built counter mechanic should be extremely oppressive otherwise. Making it so punishing, that survivors get 14 seconds of distance for one mistake does not make it feel great to play. Especially with how easy it is to miss a tail attack. Peanits himself even said, that the turrets are the main counter to Xeno's power and that you should be at a severe disadvantage, if you didn't use them to counter the Crawler Mode.
I think Xeno is overall not in a bad spot because they fixed the other issues from the PTB but I find it hard to follow the thought process of nerfing something, that was given green light to receive a buff, before it had been tested.
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He does , Xeno is easily top tier killer. Just next to Wesker. Just because you believe he is weak , it does not make him weak.
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I think that it's because the nerf did significantly impact how people can use the tail in chase. The misconceptions seem to be that the tail was rendered useless and that the tail was the main point of Xeno's kit. It requires more skill to use now, because you get a bigger punishment for missing. However, the punishment isn't crippling. It's more like missing with the Nemesis tentacle than missing a Blight charge, which can actually lose you the chase if you haven't played it well. On top of this, the tail is still powerful. It's essentially a ranged attack with almost no windup. The turrets have also been nerfed to the point where they're more of a temporary slowdown than something that can consistently knock you out of your power (unlike my poor, poor Singularity). It's rare that a Xeno loses their Crawler Mode to a turret, and even then, they can still choose to push on and finish the job with mindgames and/or brute force.
Plus, Crawler Mode is only half of Xeno's power. It still has the tunnel network, which gives it incredible, unlimited map control with survivors only being able to pre-run if they have a motion tracker nearby. There have been times where survivors pop a gen on the other side of the map when I'm Xeno, and they're still in the area when I pop up and start biting at their heels. The tunnels significantly reduce the downtime of patrolling and responding to noise notifications.
All in all, Xeno is killer that, by design, can do a bit of everything and do it all pretty well. Map control? Tunnels. Survivors who are good in chase? Tail. Counterplay from Survivors? Survivors need to come to the tunnel entrances to get them. I don't know why they nerfed the recovery movement speed at the same time as fixing the bug, but I do wonder if the tunnel network and turret nerfs made them decide that Xeno's tail didn't need to be quite as oppressive anymore. Overall, I agree with @MikaelaWantsYourBoon that Xeno's still a top-tier killer in spite of this nerf.
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My only gripe is we don't know the impact of the 2m/s cooldown. We genuinely don't. There was a common and major bug that kept her 4.6, both on hit and miss. Because of that, we genuinely have 0 idea how much was the intended impact of the 2m/s and what's the bug. If we had at least one week or even 1 *day,* then maybe we could know for sure.
Instead, they fixed the bug and nerfed the cooldown, so we have no idea if they overdid it or not
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What's your opinion on the upcoming Trickster changes?
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They weren’t over nerfed but the tail does feel a bit worse since release. I don’t know if it’s bugged or just because the changes made it feel different. The changes are kind of like Pyramid Head where it was necessary and still left them pretty strong but made them feel clunkier.
Still a fun and strong killer though.
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I'm the first to admit that I'm not great with this Killer, but they still seem pretty strong to me, even if I can't always get the best out of them.
The cooldown does punish a missed attack, but that's fair and as it should be. I find I need to be extra careful with the tail to make sure every attack counts. It's strong anti-loop, you shouldn't be able to spam it.
Besides, they have so many other plus points that a slight tail nerf barely makes the Xeno any weaker than it was.
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In general I don't think it feels that good to play, mostly due to the wonky hitbox. I like my ranged killers and I'm generally pretty good with killers that need to aim & predict movement, but something just feels way off with Xeno and it's more frustrating than enjoyable.
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I put down dbd right when he dropped and came back to see if I could enjoy it again and my first match with xeno was terrible and I honestly thought he was a weal killer.
But playing with him more I am now better than ever and got back into the swing of things as a killer main once again and honestly I think hes fine, tunnels are great for traversal and info when it gets down to that 1v1 and the tail is rewarding when hitting someone.
Just play around more and get the feel thats all I can say. Might make him my main, idk yet.
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This isn't a competition.
But a killer whose power can be taken away by survivors, should have a strong power to justify something like that.
Or do nurse, blight and wesker have something like that? Of course not. Which leads to the question if they consider alien and singu more powerful, since they have drawbacks.
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People were complaining mostly about the animation feeling wonky, not the movement speed post tail attack. The hit timing was like half a second before the visual looked like it would hit. I think maybe there were one or two voices thinking it should be faster, but that was the "all Killers should be 4.8 or even 5.0, and every map is Survivor sided" voices, so they never should be listened to anyways.
Other than indoor maps/controller usage/3gen attempts, it helps sooooo much if someone wastes their time to EMP since it only takes 3s to tag and TP back on top of them. It wastes an EMP, wastes travel time crossmapping to EMP the goo, and can even potentially give you a free hit if they put themself out of position. Sing is super fun to play and super easy to steamroll with once you get the lock-on timings down for biopod tags. The worst thing for Sing is barely missing a TP only to place a pod then break the pod the place another pod then break that pod then finally TP to the Survivor.
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Meanwhile turrets require the survivors to manually grab them, carry them at snail pace and set them up, and at best might buy a couple of seconds without doing anything, that is if the Xeno didnt hit them while setting them up, which instantly destroys them (which is a free hit as well due to how slow you move and how it takes a bit to set it up or drop it)
EMPs can be grabbed almost immediately half the time and you can hold on to them for as long as you want, which combined with decent looping skills can severely hurt Singularity if you EMPs a tagged survivor and destroy any nearby pods, this also applies to destroying any pods near gens that denies him mobility, something Xeno hardly has to struggle with.
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The turrets are literally built in slowdown that take survivors off gens for a decent amount of time and require prep and planning to use.
I'll say that again for the people in the back:
Free. Slowdown.
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He didn't receive any nerf indeed.
They are just crying they can't spam anymore his M2 without being punished due to their bad aim.
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You are right but turrets are not taking Xeno's power. Unless if they are new, turrets are hardly have effect on Xeno. It's really so easy to break turret and then chase survivor.
If we are gonna buff Xeno, we will need to buff turrets as well.
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It's kinda mind blowing to me, when players saying "No one is playing Xeno", or "Xeno was overnerfed".
Xeno is a perfect high A tier killer to me.
No buffs or nerfs needed.
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I am seeing a lot Xenos. I just checked his pickrate and he is in top 5.
So forum is just overacting. His pick and kill rates are just fine.
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He got nerf indeed. His tail attack recovery speed reduced from 2.0m/s to 1.2m/s.
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No, they just reverted the change to what was in the PTB and that none had requested. In fact, xeno came out with a reasonable number of buffs from the ptb, go check.
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That reverting is nerf.
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Call it what you will, either way I'd say a very well received and deserved nerf since it wasn't necessary to go touching that feature.
Sometimes bhvr even does the right choice.
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Think as you want, though I disagree you.
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This is a PC/Console issue.
Precise aiming is infinitely easier on PC, you literally point and click. DbDs joystick deadzone settings are awful, making precise aiming with the likes of Hatchets, Speargun and Trick knives far more difficult than it needs to be. Xeno's tail attack is along the same lines, very small hitbox requiring precise aim.
This all means that PC players miss a fraction of the tail attacks that console players do. Thus nerfing the missed tail attack cooldown is disproportionately affecting console players.
The penalty isn't an issue for PC players, because they hit 90% of their hits anyway, which is why it wasn't an issue on the PTB. But on console, where 50% of attacks are missed, it's a massive unnecessary penalty that didn't exist for the PTB.
The skill balance for Tail attack interactions with a PC Xeno is squarely on the survivor side, and their ability to bait and dodge the attack. Whereas on console, it's mostly down to dumb luck.
This puts Xeno in the same boat as other "unplayable on console" killers. And for what? The penalty doesn't affect PC players.
It might be ok if Xeno had other stuff going for it, but it fails as a stealth killer. The tail attack is a no go for console players, as a missed hit is very likely and will cost you the chase, making it an M1 killer with a limited map traversal power. It's basically Dredge or Freddy without the anti-loop/nightfall/dreamworld.
I would be thrilled if Xeno got a set of power altering add ons that traded the tail attack for better stealth or movement speed instead.
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Before any changes, i´d like to see how xeno actually performs with the intended cd on release.
Fixing the bug was the right thing to do. But then nerfing the cd to ptb levels just felt wrong. I´m also not sure if the tail attack going through survivors is a bug or a feature, since it has been so long since the nerf.
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I´m not against the turrets per se. I actually like the idea of the ping warning and how that performs.
But just as the turret is a free slowdown, its also a free headstart for survivors. Which inevitably prolongs chases and gives the other survivors more time on the gens. Thus nullifying the free slowdown.
My comment was more about how the attack performs after the nerf. How it goes through survivors, is easy to miss and has the long cd (on top of being a power that can be taken away). While the power itself isn´t something so powerful, that it deserves those drawbacks.
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She has undergone severe adjustments in terms of whether she is fun to use or not, whether she is strong or not.
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I'm not convinced that the hit box for the tail attack is correct, and seems either bugged itself or is more susceptible to lag. Seraphor also made a good point that it might be harder to hit on console vs PC, but I can't say really because I'm only on PC myself.
As far as an extra headstart goes, it's certainly not free with the up front investment of time that's required here. It's a lose-lose for survivors: you either spend the 30+ seconds to grab, move, and set up the turret in a good spot, or you ignore turrets and get completely destroyed in chase.
This is the same kind of thing that people largely ignored with circle of healing and boons as well, by completely ignoring that the time to set up and travel to use them is time not on gens.
I'm kinda tired from trying to explain that for over two years now, so if people still don't get that required, up front investment of time is the opposite of 'free' I have no interest in trying to explain basic game mechanics at this point.
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Couldnt that argument also be used the other way? Just because you believe he is strong it doesnt make him strong, I can for example show how in scrims xeno performs awfull and Even if the forum loves to believe turrets do nothing a good survivor will make them as good as EMPs .
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He's not weak, or unfun to play, but he's not Nurse, Blight, or Wesker.
He also has some very uncomfortable details to his tail usage that likely turn people away from using him. Aside from everything already covered, the invisible walls around objects are very difficult to work around. HIs lowered PoV makes some maps a headache to play on. And regardless of assertations to the contrary, the turrets do in fact remove his anti loop ability and turn him into an M1 killer.
So, most likely people that want to win don't want to invest time in learning to work around those issues.
His early release state, although broken, oddly accurately addressed the above issues, aside from the turrets.
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I don't believe that, i know that.
I am going against a lot Xenos and all of them are doing just fine. Whenever i play him, i am doing just fine. He does not feel weak when i play as him or against him.
I checked his kill-rates, they were looking fine. His pick-rates are also fine, people are playing him pretty often.
And your example won't prove anything, if you have stats which shows he is performing so bad let me see. If you don't have, then it's just words.
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That's fair yeah, i'd like to see how he is doing without nerf tho. But i disagree anyone who says he is weak. He is still strong killer but i agree with your point. Bug-fix probably was enough.
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I never said he is performing bad, in fact I think he is a decent killer just not a very good one as people believe, more that your example was rooted on as you said words, and idk if nightlight or other stats sites killrate is a good factor in determining how strong a killer is, if thats the case pig is an absolute monster and we all know your team has to be purposely throwing in order to let pig 4k
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