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Why do people think Xenocat was overnerfed?

Zokenay
Zokenay Member Posts: 1,158

Like why? only significant nerf that comes to mind was the CD increase for missed attacks, which DID require a nerf.

What else we got though? the turrets no longer having like a second or two of immunity to dmg when emerging (god this was awful) and far, FAR better visual feedback on the tail attack that made it easier to use.

I played the cat quite a few times (And im not that great at him) And i dont feel like hes weak at all.

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Comments

  • GannTM
    GannTM Member Posts: 10,886

    Of course people complained, but when do people not complain during a PTB? Now that Xeno has been out for almost 3 months, it’s now safe to judge his current status, and as someone who plays both sides, 1.2 m/s doesn’t hurt him if you’re good at the killer. All it does it give survivors an award for making a good prediction.

  • DelusionalHubris
    DelusionalHubris Member Posts: 18

    I'd like Xenomorph's tail attack hitbox to be more generous / less buggy. I've played against a few where I was wholly prepared to eat a hit and they just miss lol

  • crogers271
    crogers271 Member Posts: 1,809

    I think its more of an issue of the killer falling back into normal pick rates. There was a ton of people playing at first release, which is normal, then once the novelty wore off it just became another killer option.

    I think that's just the arc of killers - at release everyone will want to give the killer a shot. After a few weeks some people will decide they don't care about the killer, others will put them into their killer rotation, why a few will make them a main.

  • Vorahk08
    Vorahk08 Member Posts: 266
    edited November 2023

    I think that it's because the nerf did significantly impact how people can use the tail in chase. The misconceptions seem to be that the tail was rendered useless and that the tail was the main point of Xeno's kit. It requires more skill to use now, because you get a bigger punishment for missing. However, the punishment isn't crippling. It's more like missing with the Nemesis tentacle than missing a Blight charge, which can actually lose you the chase if you haven't played it well. On top of this, the tail is still powerful. It's essentially a ranged attack with almost no windup. The turrets have also been nerfed to the point where they're more of a temporary slowdown than something that can consistently knock you out of your power (unlike my poor, poor Singularity). It's rare that a Xeno loses their Crawler Mode to a turret, and even then, they can still choose to push on and finish the job with mindgames and/or brute force.

    Plus, Crawler Mode is only half of Xeno's power. It still has the tunnel network, which gives it incredible, unlimited map control with survivors only being able to pre-run if they have a motion tracker nearby. There have been times where survivors pop a gen on the other side of the map when I'm Xeno, and they're still in the area when I pop up and start biting at their heels. The tunnels significantly reduce the downtime of patrolling and responding to noise notifications.

    All in all, Xeno is killer that, by design, can do a bit of everything and do it all pretty well. Map control? Tunnels. Survivors who are good in chase? Tail. Counterplay from Survivors? Survivors need to come to the tunnel entrances to get them. I don't know why they nerfed the recovery movement speed at the same time as fixing the bug, but I do wonder if the tunnel network and turret nerfs made them decide that Xeno's tail didn't need to be quite as oppressive anymore. Overall, I agree with @MikaelaWantsYourBoon that Xeno's still a top-tier killer in spite of this nerf.

  • Mr_K
    Mr_K Member Posts: 9,222
  • BlightedDolphin
    BlightedDolphin Member Posts: 1,875

    They weren’t over nerfed but the tail does feel a bit worse since release. I don’t know if it’s bugged or just because the changes made it feel different. The changes are kind of like Pyramid Head where it was necessary and still left them pretty strong but made them feel clunkier.

    Still a fun and strong killer though.

  • tjt85
    tjt85 Member Posts: 946
    edited November 2023

    I'm the first to admit that I'm not great with this Killer, but they still seem pretty strong to me, even if I can't always get the best out of them.

    The cooldown does punish a missed attack, but that's fair and as it should be. I find I need to be extra careful with the tail to make sure every attack counts. It's strong anti-loop, you shouldn't be able to spam it.

    Besides, they have so many other plus points that a slight tail nerf barely makes the Xeno any weaker than it was.

  • Lost_Boy
    Lost_Boy Member Posts: 677

    In general I don't think it feels that good to play, mostly due to the wonky hitbox. I like my ranged killers and I'm generally pretty good with killers that need to aim & predict movement, but something just feels way off with Xeno and it's more frustrating than enjoyable.

  • ClownGuy5
    ClownGuy5 Member Posts: 85

    I put down dbd right when he dropped and came back to see if I could enjoy it again and my first match with xeno was terrible and I honestly thought he was a weal killer.

    But playing with him more I am now better than ever and got back into the swing of things as a killer main once again and honestly I think hes fine, tunnels are great for traversal and info when it gets down to that 1v1 and the tail is rewarding when hitting someone.

    Just play around more and get the feel thats all I can say. Might make him my main, idk yet.

  • mizark3
    mizark3 Member Posts: 2,253

    People were complaining mostly about the animation feeling wonky, not the movement speed post tail attack. The hit timing was like half a second before the visual looked like it would hit. I think maybe there were one or two voices thinking it should be faster, but that was the "all Killers should be 4.8 or even 5.0, and every map is Survivor sided" voices, so they never should be listened to anyways.

    Other than indoor maps/controller usage/3gen attempts, it helps sooooo much if someone wastes their time to EMP since it only takes 3s to tag and TP back on top of them. It wastes an EMP, wastes travel time crossmapping to EMP the goo, and can even potentially give you a free hit if they put themself out of position. Sing is super fun to play and super easy to steamroll with once you get the lock-on timings down for biopod tags. The worst thing for Sing is barely missing a TP only to place a pod then break the pod the place another pod then break that pod then finally TP to the Survivor.

  • Zokenay
    Zokenay Member Posts: 1,158

    Meanwhile turrets require the survivors to manually grab them, carry them at snail pace and set them up, and at best might buy a couple of seconds without doing anything, that is if the Xeno didnt hit them while setting them up, which instantly destroys them (which is a free hit as well due to how slow you move and how it takes a bit to set it up or drop it)

    EMPs can be grabbed almost immediately half the time and you can hold on to them for as long as you want, which combined with decent looping skills can severely hurt Singularity if you EMPs a tagged survivor and destroy any nearby pods, this also applies to destroying any pods near gens that denies him mobility, something Xeno hardly has to struggle with.

  • Gabe_Soma
    Gabe_Soma Member Posts: 276

    He didn't receive any nerf indeed.

    They are just crying they can't spam anymore his M2 without being punished due to their bad aim.

  • MikaelaWantsYourBoon
    MikaelaWantsYourBoon Member Posts: 6,564

    You are right but turrets are not taking Xeno's power. Unless if they are new, turrets are hardly have effect on Xeno. It's really so easy to break turret and then chase survivor.

    If we are gonna buff Xeno, we will need to buff turrets as well.

  • Grigerbest
    Grigerbest Member Posts: 1,699

    It's kinda mind blowing to me, when players saying "No one is playing Xeno", or "Xeno was overnerfed".

    Xeno is a perfect high A tier killer to me.

    No buffs or nerfs needed.

  • Gabe_Soma
    Gabe_Soma Member Posts: 276

    No, they just reverted the change to what was in the PTB and that none had requested. In fact, xeno came out with a reasonable number of buffs from the ptb, go check.

  • Gabe_Soma
    Gabe_Soma Member Posts: 276

    Call it what you will, either way I'd say a very well received and deserved nerf since it wasn't necessary to go touching that feature.

    Sometimes bhvr even does the right choice.

  • Seraphor
    Seraphor Member Posts: 9,389
    edited November 2023

    This is a PC/Console issue.

    Precise aiming is infinitely easier on PC, you literally point and click. DbDs joystick deadzone settings are awful, making precise aiming with the likes of Hatchets, Speargun and Trick knives far more difficult than it needs to be. Xeno's tail attack is along the same lines, very small hitbox requiring precise aim.

    This all means that PC players miss a fraction of the tail attacks that console players do. Thus nerfing the missed tail attack cooldown is disproportionately affecting console players.

    The penalty isn't an issue for PC players, because they hit 90% of their hits anyway, which is why it wasn't an issue on the PTB. But on console, where 50% of attacks are missed, it's a massive unnecessary penalty that didn't exist for the PTB.

    The skill balance for Tail attack interactions with a PC Xeno is squarely on the survivor side, and their ability to bait and dodge the attack. Whereas on console, it's mostly down to dumb luck.

    This puts Xeno in the same boat as other "unplayable on console" killers. And for what? The penalty doesn't affect PC players.

    It might be ok if Xeno had other stuff going for it, but it fails as a stealth killer. The tail attack is a no go for console players, as a missed hit is very likely and will cost you the chase, making it an M1 killer with a limited map traversal power. It's basically Dredge or Freddy without the anti-loop/nightfall/dreamworld.

    I would be thrilled if Xeno got a set of power altering add ons that traded the tail attack for better stealth or movement speed instead.

  • Tsulan
    Tsulan Member Posts: 15,095
    edited November 2023

    I´m not against the turrets per se. I actually like the idea of the ping warning and how that performs.

    But just as the turret is a free slowdown, its also a free headstart for survivors. Which inevitably prolongs chases and gives the other survivors more time on the gens. Thus nullifying the free slowdown.

    My comment was more about how the attack performs after the nerf. How it goes through survivors, is easy to miss and has the long cd (on top of being a power that can be taken away). While the power itself isn´t something so powerful, that it deserves those drawbacks.

  • She has undergone severe adjustments in terms of whether she is fun to use or not, whether she is strong or not.

  • AmpersandUnderscore
    AmpersandUnderscore Member Posts: 1,774

    I'm not convinced that the hit box for the tail attack is correct, and seems either bugged itself or is more susceptible to lag. Seraphor also made a good point that it might be harder to hit on console vs PC, but I can't say really because I'm only on PC myself.

    As far as an extra headstart goes, it's certainly not free with the up front investment of time that's required here. It's a lose-lose for survivors: you either spend the 30+ seconds to grab, move, and set up the turret in a good spot, or you ignore turrets and get completely destroyed in chase.

    This is the same kind of thing that people largely ignored with circle of healing and boons as well, by completely ignoring that the time to set up and travel to use them is time not on gens.

    I'm kinda tired from trying to explain that for over two years now, so if people still don't get that required, up front investment of time is the opposite of 'free' I have no interest in trying to explain basic game mechanics at this point.

  • NewPlayer100102
    NewPlayer100102 Member Posts: 515

    He's not weak, or unfun to play, but he's not Nurse, Blight, or Wesker.

    He also has some very uncomfortable details to his tail usage that likely turn people away from using him. Aside from everything already covered, the invisible walls around objects are very difficult to work around. HIs lowered PoV makes some maps a headache to play on. And regardless of assertations to the contrary, the turrets do in fact remove his anti loop ability and turn him into an M1 killer.

    So, most likely people that want to win don't want to invest time in learning to work around those issues.

    His early release state, although broken, oddly accurately addressed the above issues, aside from the turrets.

  • MikaelaWantsYourBoon
    MikaelaWantsYourBoon Member Posts: 6,564
    edited November 2023

    I don't believe that, i know that.

    I am going against a lot Xenos and all of them are doing just fine. Whenever i play him, i am doing just fine. He does not feel weak when i play as him or against him.

    I checked his kill-rates, they were looking fine. His pick-rates are also fine, people are playing him pretty often.

    And your example won't prove anything, if you have stats which shows he is performing so bad let me see. If you don't have, then it's just words.

  • MikaelaWantsYourBoon
    MikaelaWantsYourBoon Member Posts: 6,564

    That's fair yeah, i'd like to see how he is doing without nerf tho. But i disagree anyone who says he is weak. He is still strong killer but i agree with your point. Bug-fix probably was enough.

  • squbax
    squbax Member Posts: 1,491

    I never said he is performing bad, in fact I think he is a decent killer just not a very good one as people believe, more that your example was rooted on as you said words, and idk if nightlight or other stats sites killrate is a good factor in determining how strong a killer is, if thats the case pig is an absolute monster and we all know your team has to be purposely throwing in order to let pig 4k