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Sadako Changes in January - Full Thoughts and I guess History of our short girl.
Hey all, it's that time again with another Sadako change whether we want it or not on the horizon. I have some mixed opinions on the subject as well as concerns about whatever BHVR's plans are to revert back to how she originally played so I thought I'd compile it all together. This will be a long read, folks, due to needing to go over everything I can think of to get a full picture.
Before I begin I want to express that no, I don't dislike further changes because I like how lethal Sadako is right now, how oppressive she can be, how 'unfun' or 'fun' she is to play at the moment, skill issues, or her more broken playstyles or anything like that. This is purely a mechanics standpoint comparing the two iterations of Sadako we got, as well as what I can recall about the old Sadako design. I currently have 1,729 hours in DBD and at the very least 60% of it was with Sadako, so hopefully I have the experience to touch this topic. This will also be a walk down memory lane to remind us all how she used to be.
Part 1: Sadako's Release, 8th of March 2022
I will start by explaining this was about the time I joined the game and was ignorant about things like 'powers' and 'loops' and 'gen times' and whatever the hell a locker's function is. I wasn't focused on how strong Sadako was, I bought the game because of the J-Horror representation, so I'm doing research on this topic for full clarity.
My personal experience with her at the time was she was very fun. Teleporting around quickly was nice, TV's could be a problem when they were off, and as far as I knew she felt balanced. And then I tried other killers after awhile and slowly realized 'Wait a second, there are stealth killers who do this better' along other things, like the lack of an anti-loop. And remember, this was before some general killer animation speed buffs, she still had slow pallet breaking and what not.
So for this section I looked up some at-the-time thoughts on Sadako so I turned to our favorite (or not I don't know anymore) Otzdarva at the time of her release and I agree with some of his points as of her release:
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I set the time to his idea of her spot on the tier list of his (which I think Wraith was better personally but that's subjective) so give that a listen, if you want to skip it I'll go over things he pointed out below:
"You don't have any anti-loop" - I hope every Sadako main remembers this specifically. We didn't even have anti-stun in demanifest and we couldn't even have the Wraith speed boost post manifest to catch up around loops. We had the intermittent image, to be fair and can be a good mindgame tool, but good survivors play around that pretty easily and it's not useful around short wall loops if they know which direction you fake. At tall loops at the very least that short amount of time hides your red stain, but it doesn't matter when a lot of loops have safe distance to the pallet. Sadako was and always will be effectively an M1 killer with no chase power.
"Coming out of a TV will only catch survivors off guard so often" - This is very true, even now. Sadako has to go through an entire animation before moving again, which is enough time for a survivor to get to a safe place. Back then, I believe the condemned only built up after the animation ended, so survivors could completely avoid condemned stacks simply by moving outside the 16m(?) range. "16m is enough, most TVs are near gens" I hear you possibly saying. But I'd also like to point out there's plenty of TVs that aren't near gens and even facing the outside walls of the map (Looking at you, SWAMPS) and you still have enough time to run outside the radius with Sprint Burst, sometimes without it before the condemned stack hits. It's more consistant with current Sadako with the global condemned, but we'll get to that.
"Very perk dependent" - I know this one very well. I started Sadako with the base perks and her own. Once I got BBQ from the Shrine it was a game changer. Nurse's Calling was also VERY good in those situations you had everyone hurt, though remember this was the CoH meta so survivors didn't stay injured long. She also pretty much required gen regression because she couldn't end chases quickly and gens could FLY.
"Right now the best strategy is to completely ignore the tapes" - This I remember the most about old Sadako. Players barely interacted with tapes because for the most part, it was the best strategy. If you can avoid getting condemned by running away during a teleport, then you won't ever need to touch a tape. Heck, back then I didn't even know Sadako had a built in Mori, mostly because I didn't fully understand what a Mori was at the time and I didn't focus on stacking condemned because it felt overall pointless. Even when I did learn and attempted to force it, it takes too much time if survivors don't go near TVs and loop the strongest ones near TVs that are already off. And even when they take tapes, that's less TVs you have to teleport to, they can insert the tapes in your face if they were healthy (and they mostly were due to medkits/CoH at the time) and chasing them with a tape didn't have it build up the condemned due to it pausing like a pig trap. Heck my best build to defend gens had the VCR addon to make fake projections to every active TV and Deadman's Switch so every teleport I did would result in multiple blocked gens due to survivors actively avoiding condemned.
"I imagine that very good Onryo players will make her powerful" - Oh my sweet summer child, ignorant in March of 2022, we will get to that.
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I use Otz as the main example, and I'd also like to point out LOTS of people slept on Sadako due to her lack of power and influence over the other killers. When the recent changes were announced, I remember a handful of content creators had no real opinions on it because they didn't play Sadako and didn't know if it was good or not.
But to go back to old Sadako, here are some further and last second memories I had with the power:
Manifest: The mindgames you can do are great, but only when it works. I have actually gotten to the point where I didn't run the addons to increase invisibility times during the manifest because I knew when to move back and forth between intermittency. That said, it didn't always work because survivors expected it and stood in areas of a loop that meant safety near a pallet or window, or would just hold W to the next spot. Not being able to be bodyblocked is amazing for hunting down injured survivors, but only when that works too. You slow down a tad when manifesting, giving survivors enough time to block you again and you can't block windows while demanifested.
Chase Power - There was none. That's honestly all I have to say about it. If you think Sadako has a chase power, play Huntress or Deathslinger for examples of a chase power. M1 is not a chase power.
The Addition Of The Heartbeat Sensor - Guess what people learned around this time? Sadako's demanifest has a lullaby! And it can be seen on the heartbeat sensor added in March, 2023. So now her stealth has a toggle in the settings so you can see if she's near and run away even sooner! Now don't get me wrong, I like the hearbeat sensor and use it myself, but her having a lullaby in stealth is... Bad.
And now, we come to the biggest one and one that became a controversy to this day...
Condemned - Remember when I said condemned was virtually non-existant because survivors could avoid it completely? Well, someone found the loophole. This is for you Otz 'Good Onryo Players Will Make Her Powerful' 2022 Darva:
I don't know if this was the first showcase of this playstyle, but as far as I can tell it's popular enough. Condemned slugging roughly got it start around OnePumpWillie and further expanded upon after this video. If you like it or hate it, you have to admit someone did indeed find a way to force condemned. And people hated it for a very long time, even to this day and our current Sadako.
For those unaware, old Sadako's tapes built up condemned when not in chase. Pair this with the addon Ring Drawing, which spreads condemned on healing, and something like Tape Editing Deck to force everyone to start with one and you can harass a player out of the game pretty early. Later on, iirc, it evolved into the dreaded Gen Kick Meta™ using perks like Call of Brine, Overcharge, and Eruption which were far more powerful then they are now. So Sadako players could hold games hostage, slug most players, and build condemned off of picking up survivors by itself. Currently, ring drawing only does this on healing to full health, but back then? Good luck against a competent Sadako running this. No longer did you have to maybe persuade survivors to take tapes by getting precise teleports and praying it stacks when this was an option.
At this point, there was a rift between 'Sadako is extremely weak' and 'Sadako has the most broken playstyle in the game' So in conclusion, old Sadako was weak with one very oppressive playstyle, but could be fun to play for those who put the time into her. Her teleport felt fun, but was held back by a lack of a threat and easily countered, while also somehow being able to be completely ignored. Things have changed, obviously, but back then survivors saw Sadako as a joke or pointless to play unless you ran condemned slug, and once that ramped up people saw Sadako as a problem that needed changing, weaker parts needed buffed and condemned slug + gen kick meta needed to go. I remember people DCing against my Sadako because of that playstyle when I just ran Surge and Deadman's Switch to keep gens from getting rushed out so I could enjoy the chases, even insulted in endgame chat for a playstyle I didn't agree with for my own views on her or even run.
So now, we move on to the next segment:
Part 2: Sadako's Rework - The turning of the Tide (Get it? Tide? Oh forg-)
Remember when this was shown off? So many players cried out together, 'Sadako? I don't play her so who cares?' and 'They nerfed an already bad killer!' Good times. We were so young back then, we knew so little of the consequences.
I myself was part of the skeptical. I liked how Sadako felt, so hearing about a cooldown on teleport, 3/4th stacks, and increased survivor TV cooldowns, no bloodlust in demanifest as well as being able to place a tape into any TV sounded like an absolute nerf on paper, though being unable to be stunned while demanifested was nice. Plus we had addons to look forward to being changed, so no more condemned slugging, right?
Then we played the PTB for a bit, and we still thought her changes felt very off and most Sadako mains didn't know how to feel or felt she was nerfed and not fun. So BHVR changed some things!
The swap from hooking with a tape spreading condemned to breaking the tape on hit for 2 stacks didn't really phase people's opinions at the time, just was another 'What are they thinking?' moment. That said, lots of people enjoyed the lower TV cooldowns, but were still iffy about her having a power cooldown. I remember thinking it was needed since condemned was now global, but should have been a cooldown on the condemned, not the teleport.
I could not find a full list of addon changes for some reason (or delirious from writing all this) but user boom from YT seems to have a few visual changes:
To add to this, they also changed:
Reiko's Watch: 50% longer invisibility during demanifested --> 33%. What?
Well Stone: Reduces the time it takes for a TV to turn on after having been turned off by a Survivor by -7 seconds. I think this was -6 seconds before? I can't remember because I never ran it and finding this info is getting difficult, truth be told. If you know it, let me know and I'll edit this.
Distorted Photo: Survivors witnessing The Onryō Manifest within 16 metres of them scream. --> Added 'revealing their Aura for 4 seconds'. Honestly this addon is slept on now, the aura reading and scream info is great when it works.
If there is more, let me know.
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Back on track here, people were either giving up Sadako completely believing this was a huge nerf, or saying this doesn't fix her issues at all. The PTB didn't inspire anyone much and even I was concerned my playstyle of having TVs on for the VCR/Deadmans to go off would be butchered.
And then time passed.
Part 3: How I Learned To Love The Condemned.
I remember the first week or so learning the new Sadako. She was my main after all, and by god I'll learn her even if she's nerfed to the ground! And it was around that time I noticed something... Strange. Condemned was building fast, survivors didn't touch tapes as usual and... I got 3/4 Moris? What? 2 gens left? What is this?
Turns out, either people don't read patch notes much or they were too used to old Sadako. Suddenly, the changes started to click in my head. My VCR/Deadmans switch combination was still working. And oddly enough, my mind was slowly changing. Good survivors still learned to grab tapes early and those games were an uphill battle, sure, but condemned was still a threat. Survivors had to touch tapes now. Gen progression was slower. Survivors didn't take Sadako as lightly (except the ones ignoring tapes still good god the amount of times to this day they still don't-) and my playstyle didn't change at all
Granted, I still thought some things were off. She was still an M1 killer and looping her was still easy and I lost plenty of matches to good survivors, but on the other end of the spectrum, survivors cried out she was actually overpowered. She can spam teleport every 10 seconds, deny tapes by keeping TVs off, and it was too difficult to find tapes fast enough. All good arguments, even if I think she had counterplay with the tapes. The arguments I have for current Sadako stand as such:
Chase is still bad. - She can get 2 stacks if she hits you, sure, but she has to hit you. She's still an M1 killer, still lacks in loops and chase, and even lost bloodlust gain when demanifested, so if she wants to avoid stuns she loses building up speed. She relies heavy on mindgames and perks still to make up for that.
Tapes needed to be taken seriously now - To this day I still get survivors ignoring tapes until the last second. I have a perfect meme from the time I still (mostly) believe in today:
(Side note if you use reddit check out the creator of this image u/goofestgoober makes great memes)
All that said, she's not weaker than she was like we all thought. If you didn't respect her counterplay, she'll absolutely make players suffer. Especially SoloQ, she pubstomps there. Good players can communicate and work around it, but she's gotten a higher KD recently for a reason. I think those of us who still played Sadako felt like this:
(Same meme creator btw)
The other problem I should address is, well, condemned slugging and tunneling out someone with condemned is still a problem. If a survivor doesn't respect their tapes early, Sadako can target them out quickly, tunnel off hook, and get an early Mori fast if the survivor doesn't loop well. Ring drawing was fixed to stop downed survivor pickups from spreading condemned but with condemned now being a global threat with tapes giving even more on break, addons like Mother's Comb for TV information and Iri Tape to force players to use tapes on specific TVs become extremely problematic tools for quick kills.
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So to summerize the current Sadako:
No more freely moving around TV to TV quickly in exchange for global condemned and a survivor secondary objective.
Tapes are more important and more dangerous to interact with if you're not careful.
Global condemned also means quick kills with the right addons/builds.
She's much stronger power wise but mechanically weaker in chase without the right addons/perks.
And lastly, her problematic playstyles are still there, if not worse due to SoloQ being unable to coordinate or having players who don't pick up the tapes fast enough or split up early to do so.
With all this in mind, I played Sadako now almost like I did before. Focus on splitting up hooks, use condemned as a threat, and use mindgames like the VCR/Deadmans combo. If anything, the changes made it easier on me because survivors have a back and forth with the power now. I don't even feel the teleport cooldown anymore because I know where I want to be at any given moment to apply pressure or subvert expectations of where I'm coming from.
I see old Sadako mains say she's not fun to play anymore, but I honestly don't see why. She doesn't feel very different aside the teleport cooldown, and if you teleported that much with old Sadako and her TV cooldowns, you were honestly opening yourself up to less strategic movements.
With the right adjustments to condemned buildup, I honestly think this current Sadako would be perfectly fine. Mechanically, she feels like the threat the original movie made her feel like, as survivors slowly (arguably) become more condemned and having to actually engage with the tapes to avoid certain death.
So anyway BHVR is changing her-
Part 4 - IS NEVER THE END IS NEVER THE END IS NEVER THE END
So BHVR wants to bring Sadako back to how she used to be. Fine. Okay. I didn't get used to a controversial power change and somehow actually enjoy the mechanics and back and forth and coping with an extremely long post nobody will read. I'm fine, I swear.
Joking aside, I think it's fine, she has a high KD and people can't work around her easily, but I'm concerned because I legitimately enjoy tapes being a core part of her counterplay now and I actually care about the character enough to NOT want her to be nuked into oblivion because survivors couldn't pick up the counterplay fast enough. Old Sadako really feels more and more like a joke to me the more I look back, and it comes down to how little interaction with her power survivors had. Sure her movement was fun, but that's about the only positive I can think of. If they can somehow retain the fun movement with the necessity of tapes, I'd be all for it.
HOWEVER, BHVR changes are strange. I fear that they may give her the Freddy treatment and make her even worse than she was before. So, at the very least, here are my suggestions:
- Keep TV cooldowns low. Having TVs more active means more movement and more Condemned involvement.
- Remove lullaby TR. Surprise hits are her best weapon due to not having a chase power.
- Give tapes a reason to be touched. Larger condemned radius from teleporting, applying condemned ON teleport NOT after animation, SOMETHING.
- Keep the anti-stun in demanifest. It's honestly a QoL for Sadako.
- DO NOT NERF ANY OF THE ABOVE. I beg.
- Be able to move the camera a little bit during the teleport animation. Being able to look a little to the left and right could help with spotting survivor movements and planning ahead.
- Fix her addons. Reiko's Watch especially. Didn't need the nerf. I'd also argue to bring back old Iri Tape's effect of turning on the last 4 TVs used on hit, but that depends on balance with current cooldowns.
This is all assuming they go nuclear on the current Sadako. In short, please respect your players, the game balance, and the interactivity of Sadako in your upcoming changes BHVR. I beg.
If I forgot anything or glossed over something, let me know. I'll add/edit anything I may have missed. I've played Sadako for so long so I tried to remember everything I could and research what I could for things I forgot. I need to go touch grass no- nevermind it's snowing.
Comments
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I would be so happy if they just reverted all the rework changes and only kept a few such as the shorter TV cool-downs and the Ring Drawing nerf. The anti-stun while demanifested is a nice gimmick and I think it should stay as well.
Making old Iri-tape part basekit or buffing the range in which condemn is applied upon Projection would be nice too.
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All I ask is condemned still stays a decent threat and tapes are still an active part. I love the interactions between survivors and tapes and breaks up the monotony of generators.
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Here is my ideal as someone who dumped Sadako after the rework:
1. Keep global condemned; however, reduce the stack to 0.5 but if a survivor is within 16m of a TV, increase the condemned gained by 0.5.
2. Untether the teleport from the CD, the CD is now just for global condemn (still get half a stack if in the radius... A strong maybe here).
3. Differentiate the HUD flash from global and local condemn gain so it can be used as tracking.
4. And basically the other stuff you said... Especially Reiko's Watch... I just started picking it up when the rework was announced. Also, I hate that it is exactly the same as the brown add-on.
But that's just me... I want a bit of old and new, just the better portions of each.
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I can get behind that condemned idea, good suggestion! Same with the CD on condemned!
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I think your suggestions are decent. I would say that I would want old Iri-tape to come back in some form, ideally with part of it being made basekit so she doesn't have to be so add-on reliant.
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I really hope the old one with no cooldows comes back, because that was why I played her. You made very good points. I never played for condemned, so she was killed for me. After reading everything I agree that with the current one games are slown down a lot and that I ended up three gening a lot before her rework, because it was quite easy to defend the last gen.
I wanted to give some ideas:
Tvs
- Very short to no cooldowns so people if they want to take you the ability to be everywhere instant they have to take a tape
- TVs also have a area around them where you get condemned by just being close.
Tp
- speed boost after crawling out of the tv
- looking around like you said
- the radius close to the tvs which give you condemned gets increased and splitted in three parts. First radius around the radius from before the rework 0,5 stacks, in the radius before her rework 1 stack and close to the TVs 2 stacks. That would reward you to chase them to TVs. I don‘t know, which numbers I should use there.
- I didn‘t know before I read your post that the condemned was only applied after the tp animation so that should change too
- Other idea, which someone had in the #bringbackoldsadako discussion was that areas of for example 16m around TVs give one stack condemned. I liked that one.
Demanifast/Manifast
- Faster switch between both forms
- more lagging and glitching around, so that they don‘t know where you are
- pallet immunity like now
- chase count as chases in demanifast
- The demanifast glitching should stay for longer after switching
- I would also like her terror radius to return in demanifasted mode so people would be scared and run into me, because they don‘t know from where I come. As I started playing against her I did that quite often. I heard the terror radius, then I started to run and she just appeared out of nowhere in front of me.
Tapes
- I would want the tapes to be like before the rework, because in the current form I don‘t like that people switch off TVs only to counter condemned. If it was willingly it would be fine, but so I hate it.
- with short/no TV cooldown you have to pick up otherwise she can tp around all the time. So the tv shuts down for 50-70s
- also with the tapes you don‘t get the passive condemned from being close to the Tv. Instead the tape gives you condemned by holding it
- After putting it back in the tv you lose stacks of condemned
- I also would like if you only have one tv to put the tape like before
- Also an idea someone had was that you could decide as survivor to ######### your mates or be a good mate, where one tv was shown, which doesn‘t give your teammates 1 stack condemned and all others do, but you could decide. I don‘t think it would be good, because I would definitely give my mates condemned.
Also she shouldn’t have her lullaby shown in the visual heartbeat like you said.
I tried to find a good use for the tapes and some for condemned, because it was what was important for you in the other discussion, but I don‘t know what would be a good use to interact with the tapes except of condemned and switching off TVs. I personally also don‘t want that stupid immunity of condemned, because that made all people switch off the TVs, so I couldn‘t enjoy her new variant.
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There are some very good options you've laid out here. I'd like to go over a few that stuck out to me:
- TV short cooldowns would benefit both increased condemned presence and bring back Sadako's map traversal without dealing with cooldowns. Another suggestion I see people say is attach the condemned to the cooldown and not the teleport, both very good options.
- Increased condemned radius buildup depending on TV proximity is also a suggestion I've seen but want to put emphasis on a great idea.
- One of my wishlists for Sadako's manifest/demanifest, or really condemned in general is she gets visual tricks kinda like doctor madness while you're demanifested and not in chase, but your suggestions for more glitching and such is also a good alternative.
- I'm still split on tapes in general, but if we did go back to her old version the prior suggestions to improve and make condemned more consistant is all I truly want. Tapes being more important then they were made me soften up to newer Sadako.
Overall very good suggestions, I'd be happy if at least half of these things plus the QoL we currently have with no-stun demanifest came to be.
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What do you mean with visuel tics in your third point?
What do you think about getting condemned passively in a range around TVs (16m), which gives you a small amount of condemned over time. Survivors would have to take a tape. Also when they have a tape it protects you from the passive condemned not the TV-tp condemned, but instead you get it from the tape. So people couldn‘t just ignore the TVs close to them.
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You know how Doctor has his fake illusions? Imagine if by how high your condemned was, you'd see similar distortions that demanifested Sadako has when she's just barely in view on approach, escalating in intensity as condemned rises to the point where you do see fake Sadakos. Just a personal want though.
Passive TV condemned could be neat, but the problems I see are both TV placements are kinda jank sometimes and if BHVR would allow it to happen between floors, since that has been a thing they've tweaked with other powers like Skull Merchant drones and whatnot.
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You mean there are illusions which Sadako can see over the map where survivors are?
Or do you mean the demanifest illusions appear more around her?
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Probably not being able to see them as Sadako, depending on how much information that would give her since condemned is a Mori, but something that surrounds survivors that effects them depending on their condemned level. For example 1 condemned would see very minor glitching occasionally but 5 stacks would see it happen more often and sometimes see a false demanifested Sadako standing on the outer rim of the demanifest vision range coming in and out.
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Yes that would be nice, but it‘s doctors thing, therefore I don‘t see it happen.
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Maybe if it‘s a running around Sadako, which disappears behind objects it would work
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