General Discussions
General Discussions
MFT is no longer in Top 10
According to NightLight, which has been a quite accurate source when it comes to perk pickrates, MFT isn't even in Top 10 anymore. How have your games been with MFT mostly gone? Have you been "winning" more as Killer or "losing" more as Survivor? Or was it all a placebo effect?🧠
Comments
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I am winning more as survivor. I have over a 50% gate escape rate in solo queue in my last 50 games. Probably around 60%. I was below 40% when I had MFT. This is probably the MMR change more than anything though. MFT just happened to get nerfed at around the same time. I really don't notice any difference in my chase length without MFT. I can last just as long as I did when I had it.
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whatttttttttt! no way.... how???
some of the vet forum users was telling me it was stronger than before. How is it not stronger with it highly situational activation requirement?? topsy turvy man
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It’s a meh perk now
Basically an anti legion perk lol
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Stronger... with the right build... kinda? Standalone, the perk is really bad.
I use it a bit, it isnt too bad, but it's a noticeable decline since you have to use multiple perks to get valuable use from it.
I will admit that I did contribute to that mindset at the time, I was horribly mistaken.
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Who could've predicted that the perk was going to be absolute dogwater after it got hit by one of the most situational status effect conditions known to DBD.
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"Stronger... with the right build... kinda? I use it a bit"
what build did you use? I don't wanna force mft vaule by throwing myself at the killer with anti tunnel perks (DH/DS/OTR)
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I just use Dead Hard and a Styptic Agent (+ Medkit), obviously it doesnt work every time but I find that I get a decent bit a value with it.
Id say the only downside is that it can be hard to see thing in Deep Wounds but that's not an issue with the perk, that's just an issue with Deep Wounds.
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This one is quite nice. Probably not the strongest build out there, but it is fun to use. You mostly use it for the endurance on heal effect, if you get the 3% as well, then aces.
Instead of Botany Knowledge you can take We'll Make It as well, if you can get both WGLF and WMI going at the same time, that works really nicely, but BK doesn't need an unhook first, so is a fallback to atill have chances to get value from MFT.
It's not a dead perk, its fun to build around. Question is how much of a meta sheep do you want to be?
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Thank god more people are using Bond!
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Old habits die hard for me. So I still use mft. Now I use it with overcome in case of a slugging situation which has occurred already with one in mind against a slugging condemned onryo. I also use it with styptics now.
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I wonder if they'll ever buff it.
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Honestly, the only people that are surprised by this are new/inexperienced players. & the ones who said MfT would still be strong after the gut nerf, were either incredibly disingenuous or just as bad as the new/inexperienced.
Hopefully it doesn't stay buried like so many other perks (both surv & killer).
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Firstly,
Nightlight is not a good place to go for statistics, because it is an extremely small sample size of the games that are actually played
Secondly,
Lets look at actually officially released data from a few months ago
Usage rate =/= effectiveness. Of course something with a higher skill ceiling is going to have less use rate. Because for some reasonthis community thinks you always need to balance and look at "average" players. Even nightlight, which is not accurate, is showing something similar that the previously released statistics are showing. Look at all of those perks and think about it, what do the vast majority of them have in common?
- Windows of opportunity
- MFT
- Adrenaline
- Resilience
- Lithe
- Self care
- Deja Vu
- Sprint Burst
- Dead Hard
- Kindred
I'll give you a minute to think about it before i tell you the answer, but i really want you to think about it before you scroll down. Are you ready? Ok here we go...
All of these perks with the exception of Windows of Opportunity and MFT are perks that are either baseline, are are given to you on survivors for free from buying the game (or in the case of david, completing the tutorial). The 2 outliers here are MFT and Windows of Opportunity.
My explanation for WOO being there is that it is an amazing noob perk when you are new at the game and have no idea where anything is. It helps you learn maps faster and get to safety even if you aren't familiar with a map. If anything, this shows that WOO Should probably be made into a base perk that everyone gets.
What is the other outlier? MFT. Which this was before its nerf. And this shows that there is probably something wrong with MFT before the nerf. If its usage rate is SO high that it is actually beating out free perks so shortly after its release. Meaning you can't have it from shrine, you HAD to buy the DLC. This shows 2 things.
1) The singularity chapter was a financial success. Given that at least 21% of survivors owned the DLC, meaning that at minimum if DBD had a million players, they sold 168,000 copies of that DLC
2) MFT was a problem because of just how much of an outlier it was compared to all of the free non-paid perks.
You know what else those usage stats showed though? That self-care was the 6th most use survivor perk. Now, if we looked and balanced things based on usage statistics, this probably puts self-care in the "needs a nerf" range right? And i think we can all agree that currently self care is probably one of the worst perks in the game. So in short. Stop looking at usage statistics for your balance decisions. Especially from non-official sources.
Because do you know what else your "precious" nightlight shows? That
- Skull merchant is the most OP killer in the game
- Skull merchant, Twins, Onryo, Wraith, Chucky, Pyramid Head and DOCTOR all have a higher win rate than NURSE
- That all of those above killers and myers and hag have a higher win rate than BLIGHT
And if you think that doctor needs a nerf and is more OP than nurse, than i have a bridge to sell you.
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Can I just throw it out there that all of Gabriel's perks were in the shrine during his tome. Which is usually a normal thing the devs do so ppl can finish their challenges.
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It's kinda funny how you posted the official top perks BHVR themselves shared that almost completely matched the Top 10 picked perks on NL during that time but then you said NL isn't a good source for statistics... Sure there are variables and not every single number should be taken as a fact on there but top perks specifically were mostly pretty accurate with a couple of small differences.
Post edited by Venusa on8 -
I'm currently collecting stats for 100 SoloQ games and as of this moment, I have 68 completed games.
In all of those matches, MFT appears 8 times, so out of 204 survivors, 8 ran it, giving us a 3.9% use rate. I'm curious to see how this will hold up in the long run.
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Sometimes that is going to happen. That is how statistics work. You have a population, and then you have a sampling of that population.
Sometimes, especially if you are correctly sampling your population, such as in political polls (which also aren't accurate but for different reasons) the sample will be correct. But that is assuming you have a large enough sample size to account for said population.
Now lets look back to nightlight. According to nightlight, twins has a 61.15% kill rate. But also look at how twins only is looking at 161 games played. Now, generally to get statistically relevant data, you want to have a sample of around 10% of your population. Which isn't always feasible. So you go with a margin of error and a confidence level to determine that. Now around 161, is going to give you a margin of error of around 10%.
This means that the actual kill rate for twins could be 51.15% or 71.15%. The lower the sample size, the less accurate your measurement is going to be. But that is assuming you are looking at 161 different players, which is not likely.
The point i'm making is. Nightlight is looking at such a small small minority of games, that i don't think you should be looking to it for your stats, as it likely is going to be far less accurate.
The other example is that the samples are inherently not random and are biased. Nightlight requires self reporting, which by its nature is only looking at a specific type of player. For example, i am a nurse main. And looking at nurse, they are reporting 715 games played for a month of data there. If i play an average of 2-3 hours a night, in a month. Lets say around 13 minutes per game (and queue times and such) that means that in a given month i can play Probably around 10-15 games a night. Meaning that i could personally account for HALF of those reported games of nurse.
Now what if i played twins a killer i don't actually play and am terrible at? I could probably single handedly tank the twins kill rate on that chart by just playing twins every game for a month and reporting every game i play.
The main point here, is that probably twins doesn't have a 61% kill rate, but that a handful of dedicated twins mains who use nightlight who are really good are pumping up her numbers. These could be players that are really really good at the game and aren't representative of actual reality.
This is why nightlight is not accurate.
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I'm NOT talking about killrates or Killer pickrates though? I know those are very variable too. I'm deliberately emphasizing TOP PICKED PERKS each time I speak. You can check the pictures I attached on my comment prior. "8/10" and "9/10" accuracy isn't just "sometimes that is going to happen". That's just accuracy.
Post edited by Venusa on2 -
If it is anti-legion now, it was anti-every-killer-that-injures before.
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"Look at all of those perks and think about it, what do the vast majority of them have in common?
- Windows of opportunity
- MFT
- Adrenaline
- Resilience
- Lithe
- Self care
- Deja Vu
- Sprint Burst
- Dead Hard
- Kindred
All of these perks with the exception of Windows of Opportunity and MFT are perks that are either baseline, are are given to you on survivors for free from buying the game"
Killer perks are the exact opposite. Being free will help but players will pick the best perks regardless.
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man i wish it was a way to delete your comment on here. venusa said exactly what i was thinking. i was in the middle of posting and didn't see their comment into after
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I mean, this is called confirmation bias.
If you look at the perks that nightlight misses, it's not just wrong, it's very wrong.
Nightlight doesn't have self care (#6) even in the top 10, so instead of the actual pick rate of ~15%, it's somewhere less than 8.7%. That's an incredibly large miss to just toss out or ignore.
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Just use a Styptic
(meme face)
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Maybe I don't win more. Pretty much the same to be honest.
But at least my chases feel fairer now.
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Its always fun to see people cope with nightlight stats when their favorite perks are on the line. Too bad it wasn't around when DH was at its peak, the usage rate would be amazing to witness in comparison to the other perks in line.
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I don't understand this or I read this wrong. I'm not saying it's %100 correct, I keep saying NL was pretty accurate when it comes top picked perks which is an objective truth.
They got the general picture of the top picked perks almost completely right. Placing 8/10 and 9/10 of perks somewhere on top correctly among hundreds of perks but because they didn't get 3 perks right it's "very wrong" and completely unreliable?
edit. I just realized I kept saying "perk pickrates" on some of my comments instead of "top picked perks" by accident so now I feel kinda dumb I apologize for the typo.
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I was hoping they would give it another effect to compensate for the deep wound requirement but I guess the devs don't want it viable anymore.
I was thinking maybe it should increase the duration of the base kit bt/haste to solidify it as an anti-tunneling perk.
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My SoloQ teammates still run it idk 🤷♂️ why
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In fact, NL's sample size is adequate. You're basically using a straw man by citing twins, as even a sample of 161 games at a 90% confidence level would lead to an error of 6.5% (I honestly don't know where you came up with the 10% value).
The larger the sample size, the more accurate it will be, but there is no relationship with the size of the population. You may have a population of 100 million, but if you have a sample with 16576 elements (which would be less than 0.02% of the population), you will be able to estimate the proportion of a characteristic in the population with an error probability of 1% and a confidence level of 99%.
I don't know what source you used to say that for the size of a sample to be representative it needs to be proportional to the size of the population, but that is absolutely wrong. All techniques for determining the size of a sample, whether for mean or proportion, do not depend on the size of the population.
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So I was right.
Pop has returned to the meta, after all.
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For some of us, it never left
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Me, but with A Nurse's Calling.
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Very based
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The folks that were assuring everyone that it's "even stronger now!" were the same ones complaining for months that it needed a nerf. They knew it was gonna be rubbish and were gleefully talking out their ass.
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Thats only accurate if you have a truly representative sample though. Which would require you to pick out 16k random players. But nightlight isn't looking at 16k random players. Its looking at players who know it exists, and who report data to it, which is going to be a very specific, very biased subset of players.
Also are you just going to glaze over the fact that for a month if i played nothing but twins games where i 0ked every game i could single handedly take the twins kill rate from 61% below 25%?
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This problem is related to the sampling process and not to the sample size, a sample of 1 million matches would still be insufficient, so everything you said about sample size is still wrong, especially in stating that the sample should be proportional to the population at around 10% to be representative.
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This will never stop being funny.
What I didn't expect was that after the nerf went through we'd still have voices arguing that it wasn't a nerf.
But nightlight isn't looking at 16k random players. Its looking at players who know it exists, and who report data to it, which is going to be a very specific, very biased subset of players.In this situation none of that is relevant.
We're comparing like population groups: people who used nightlight before and after the changes to MFT. Among that group we've seen MFT crater.
Is there any reason or evidence to think that this group is unique in how they've adjusted play?
Also are you just going to glaze over the fact that for a month if i played nothing but twins games where i 0ked every game i could single handedly take the twins kill rate from 61% below 25%?We're not talking about twins or speculation on if the system can be gamed doesn't mean it is being gamed. You can talk about the ability to manipulate killer data, but that is totally irrelevant to the survivor side data. Being there are four survivors in every game reported and the reporter could control at most 1 of them, all of this is a red herring.
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I don't know why everyone is talking about Twins's killrate on NL when the topic is clearly Top perks which is way easier to predict. They're 2 very different things and this discussion isn't even about if NL is reliable or not because when it comes to top perks it's proven to be almost completely accurate. I literally posted screenshots of NL's accuracy as proof when it comes to top perks but @Reinami just ignored or refused to see it because it doesn't help their narrative. Nobody even claimed killrates or Killer pickrates are absolutely correct on NL. I don't understand why @Reinami created that narrative, ran with it and muddied the discussion with unrelated commentary. Thanks.
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endurance
situational
in current meta
K bro
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Here is the reason why nightlights survivor usage rate is quite accurate: you are getting 4 samples collected in the wild for each game played. And often through several MMR and skill regions, because that's just how the MMR system works.
The data of the survivors I verse matches a lot with the official releases one. The official data, though, is the global numbers over all skill levels and regions of the so are bound to be differences from what you verse in your own games.
That so much matches up, though, makes Nightlight a good temperature barometer IMHO. Its not to be taken as an exact tool, but it shows trends very well and you could see the raise and favor of MFT in real time on that page, while people were mockingly stating that MFT wasn't even in the top10 of BHVRs released stats of that time, wh8ch was purposefully ignoring the fact that MFT wasn't released for half of the time bracket that BHVRs stats were collected in.
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Hi Akuma! "Its not to be taken as an exact tool, but it shows trends very well." is exactly what I'm saying and I agree with what you've said. It paints the general picture of top perks pretty accurately and back then it almost completely matched the official data with small differences which means if NL says MFT isn't even in Top 10 anymore, there's a very high chance it's correct information. I keep emphasizing that I'm ONLY talking about top perks and not Killer pickrates or killrates etc. but some persistently misconstrue what I'm saying.😇
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Deep Wounds, actually.
Completely dependent on the Killer and their ping.
Crazy how that makes a perk horrible. Who could've seen it coming
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It's now an anti tunneling perk, works pretty well with OTR and DH, or basekit BT. It's not #########, it's just not overly busted
But just like killer players when they stop playing a killer cuz they read the word nerf (e.g., Spirit), survivors stop playing their busted perks the moment they're not stupidly broken anymore
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Was it broken? I never saw anyone use it. My rating has to be low because I get sacrificed way more than I escape. Are good survivor players better than good killer players? It's a serious question. I don't care what happened in DBD 5 years ago. I'm talking about new players coming in right now.
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It certainly needed a hefty nerf, I don't think anyone can say it was a fair and healthy perk beforehand. That said it was hit a bit too hard, similar to Ruin, and now it'll join the dozens and dozens of perks almost no one uses.
Maybe I'm wrong though and people will experiment with it more with Endurance perks and Styptics.
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the perk currently only punishes Slinger , Knight and Legion just by using their powers.
but now the other low tier killer can actually have a chance and be viable again which is good ; HOWEVER
Wish the perk was only trigger after getting hit while having the endurance effect is active rather than work all the time when inflicted by deep wound due to a killer power.
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Exactly my reaction. There were users here who were even questioning if it is a Nerf to MFT. And yet, nobody plays it anymore. What a big surprise.
But you know, if you have the right build, at full moon, during the 29th of February, after offering your first born to the Entity... THEN you will get value out of MfT.
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Rest in pieces MFT.
Its very clear now after the nerf the impact that the perk had before the changes. I used to chase someone for a long time and it was very noticeable when some had or hadn't MFT.
Now, my games are solid and most of the exhaustion perks are "dealable".
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MFT was a mistake in the first place. Don't tinker with longtime movement speed boosts, it will not work out and only cause problems.
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Dead Hard is bad. It relies on the Killer's ping. Making a perk only usable with another perk is bad design. Making the perk only usable with a perk that is completely beholden to the Killers ping is egregious.
Basekit BT and MFT will afford you little distance. It's also, once again, dependant on the killer.
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