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Survivor-Caused 3-Gens. No Big Deal Anymore?
Comments
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"It's astounding that you'd think that the people who designed the damn game doesn't know it."
They don't though. They've come up with multiple ideas that -no one- liked. Most of these got cancelled by community input, but there's a reason they ask feedback.
They don't know the game as thoroughly as the players do. They simply -can't-. Someone among the thousands is going to have a better grasp on some things.
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"They don't know the game as thoroughly as the players do. They simply -can't-. Someone among the thousands is going to have a better grasp on some things."
Yeah I give you that. But that's also not what I said.
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I know that's not what you said, but it throws a wrench in your appeal to authority.
The devs don't know.
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Find 1, down them, if you can't get them to a hook, leave them slugged while standing over their body. Survivors will either come in for a save, allowing more downs, or they will complete the gens. Either way, you get out of the game. 💁♂️
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I did not say they need to be gods.
Nor did I say you are not a good killer.
Stop using ad hominem to create a false narrative.
You just obviously dont play against survs that know what they are doing and dont goof around.
If the devs REALLY understood their game, explain how maps like garden of joy with its main building can exist even AFTER a re visit for balancing?
How can Haddonfield main spawn with 2-3 windows and at least one god pallet next to it?
How can a TL tile, a jungle gym and shack spawn right next to each other?
If the devs are not die hard surv mains, or, at least, favour survivors more, how did survs get a HUD update that precisely tells everyone what their team is doing while kllers like onryo, plague, etc have to guess how far their power is stacked? Why do killers still have to count hooks?
Why is their accessibility options like visual TR and killers have none of that? No visual Sound cues, nothing...
Dont get me started on hexes that havent been touched and are basically useless if they spawn infront of survs. Scourge Hooks exclusively spawning in one area of the game, etc.
Survs "issues" always have higher priority than killers. FOV slider is the first thin Killers got across the board since the big shakeup in 2022.
I get it, the majority of the Playerbase exclusively plays survivor. And thats why they dont understand most of the game mechanics. Killer is way less forgiving than survivor and requires much more knowledge, coordination and skill overall!
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So we are ignoring that the map is basically a built in Counter for tunneling? Almost ALL of the maps, with 2-3 exceptions, are exclusively in survivors favour.
And again, you are trying to balance this game like a 1v1v1v1v1 but it is 1v4. Killer plays against 16 meta perks. Survs play against 4. And that is the point. If the game would be balanced like you guys want it to be, every survivor could win the game in a 1v1 against the killer.
You HAVE TO play as a team!
And that brings me back to my point:
SoloQ isnt miserable bcs of overpowered killers. It is because of bad survivor players. And you cannot and SHOULD NOT balance around bad players!
There have to be build in mechanics to make the killer more powerful. Because, like i explained before, killers time is more precious than survivors time.
Everytime the killer is interacting with one survivor, 3 others are progressing the game. and you need to balance around that.
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you said to git gud... just added many words to it.
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....mate he literally just said to take a chase...
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in this comment. not on the previous one.
there is context. try to keep up
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From what we've gathered your feeling that no matter how much you messed up or the survivors out play you to the point that you proc the 8 limit in a drawn out game, this solution is unfair (presumably to the killer). Further more you claim there's a "simple solution to this" yet never said what it is (as far as I have bothered to look back).
What pulsar basically said is killers can chase and you pointing out an unlikely scenario and spitting favoritism (which so far seem correct).
You then point to the actual topic which pulsar then points out what they think and some advice that boils down to what? Take a chase.
I'm half asleep so I'm genuinely asking, Miss something here?
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Survs "issues" always have higher priority than killers. FOV slider is the first thin Killers got across the board since the big shakeup in 2022.
What issues do killers have, across the board, that need to be addressed?
The FoV slider is pretty much the only thing on that list, and that's now gone. What else do you want BHVR to do, that is not balance related?
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Stop using ad hominem to create a false narrative.You just obviously dont play against survs that know what they are doing and dont goof around.Those two lines being back to back is kind of hilarious.
The forum is weird. If you say as killer you get toasted by survivors it must mean you are good, but if you say you are winning all of your matches you must be bad.
If the devs REALLY understood their game, explainIf we're explaining things, how have the devs managed to have a successful game for 7 years? Why has every other game that tried to emulate the DbD formula failed/seen far less success?
If the devs are not die hard surv mains, or, at least, favour survivors more, how did survs get a HUD update that precisely tells everyone what their team is doing while kllers like onryo, plague, etc have to guess how far their power is stacked?Why did survivors have to play for years without a HUD?
But the answer here is simple: to try and lessen the gap between SWFs and soloq so that balance changes across the board can work better.
Why is their accessibility options like visual TR and killers have none of that? No visual Sound cues, nothingDetecting the terror radius is not supposed to be a matter of skill. You should either hear it, or not. Thus giving a visual indicator doesn't impact the skill expression that is supposed to be shown, but it does allow more accessibility to the role.
Hearing survivors is a killer skill. This is why survivors have tactics to lessen their sound without totally removing it. Giving visual indicators would defeat the purpose of this.
Dont get me started on hexes that havent been touched and are basically useless if they spawn infront of survs. Scourge Hooks exclusively spawning in one area of the game, etc.Many things in the game run on a risk / reward system which has a high degree of RNG. The same here is true for a survivor running a boon build, even if they have the map totem spawns memorized (which is an unrealistic ask), it might take them checking multiple spots before they find one (and on some maps the spots can be pretty bad).
Not to mention that survivor perks are much more dependent on guessing killers and their strategies. Pain res, pop, etc. have value regardless of what the survivors bring, a healing build vs a Plague is a waste of perks, Reassurance against a non-camping killer is a dead slot, etc.
Survs "issues" always have higher priority than killers.There's more issues.
I get it, the majority of the Playerbase exclusively plays survivor.That's just silly. The majority of the playerbase definitely doesn't just play one role.
As a fundamental matter the game needs more survivors than killers. I'm actually surprised that BHVR gives as much equal attention as they do.
Killer is way less forgiving than survivor and requires much more knowledge, coordination and skill overall!You're entitled to feel that way, but its one of the most frequent disagreements among the playerbase. Some find survivor stressful/difficult, some find killer stressful/difficult, its just the way it is. I play a few games of killer and then move onto something else because I get bored playing killer really quickly as, win or lose, it doesn't feel like it requires a lot from me.
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Killers are forbidden to lunge if they are too close to a survivor, which can steal hits.
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So, a bug. Anything else?
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Still hasn't been confirmed as a bug. It might be an actual game mechanic, for all anyone knows. BHVR has refused to comment on this for months, so it remains a top secret thing in this game, that can steal hits from killers.
Why? Why hasn't BHVR commented on it yet? Is it there on purpose so that survivors can feel like they "outplayed" the killer? Is it a bug that's so difficult to fix, that BHVR won't even comment on it?
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I'm pretty sure it's a side effect of an existing feature. Lunges, as far as I can tell, end immediately when you touch a survivor, turning into a swing. If you're already touching a survivor when you try to lunge, that effect kicks in immediately.
Not sure how that can cost you a hit though.
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The game validates lunges more than once. The first set of validations, is to check if the killer is allowed to lunge, or if a killer lunge needs to immediately turn into a forced short M1 attack.
There is a COMPELTELY SEPARATE hit validation for whether or not the M1 attack hits the survivor, and that is what causes the stolen hits. The game can forbid the killer from lunging, or forcibly end a lunge early, but then tell the killer the attack missed because the survivor was too far away to hit.
The game should only validate M1 attacks once. This means that if the game forbids a killer to lunge, or forcibly ends their lunge early, then the game should automatically give the killer the hit. There shouldn't be this multiple validation garbage, especially if the proximity validations are done on the killer side (instead of the server side), which means that latency would make it extra worse.
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Sometimes, I do wonder if some people aren't real.
"Stop ad hominem attacks"
"You just suck lmao"
Closing the gap between Solo Q and SWF is not favoring Survivors. I think it's very very obvious at this point that both of us play exclusively Killer, but one of us hasn't reached the point where we can stop demonizing the other side.
You'll get there, in time.
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If you think taking a chase is getting good, we may have found out why there a 4 Survivors left on a full map.
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We're getting the impression that most the time killers will play on the offensive only when trying to hard tunnel someone...
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pretty simple:
Gen Times are to flexible. They can go from 120sec per gen down to 30 or 20 seconds. There are teams that leave the exit gates after 4:45 min. Bring all the gen progression and regression perks in line so the extend of how fast or slow gens go is not that big.
Maps! Map layouts are completely fcked up. Garden of Joy Main or Haddonfield main are the perfect example. If run correctly, the killer cannot physically catch you without major fuckups from survivors. Lower Tier Killers and esp. M1 Killers really struggle to the point that nearly everyone jus gives up chase if ppl run into GoJ Main Building, bcs there is not point in running it.
Tiles/Pallets are spawning way to close. There are way to much Safe Pallets or safe loops to close to another. Add more Line of sight Blockers but make all loops mindgameable. Tunneling happens bcs there is no point in chasing a healthy survivor into shack next to a jungle gym.
Make NOT tunneling more rewarding instead of making tunneling harder and harder. It will still remain the most effective way to play. f.e. add a "demoralizing debuff" to all survivors if everyone got hooked once and add another stack if everyone got hooked twice.
The most important part in my opinion is the following:
EDUCAT SURVIVOR PLAYERS!
Make them play at LEAST one game as and/or against every killer in the tutorial. They need to understand mechanics, how tiles work, when to do gens and whe to NOT unhook. Most of the survivors accusing me of tunneling are unhooking right as i turn my back on them to leave the hook.
Tbh, a big part of the surv community is just downright Bad!
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Quote me where I said "you suck" ?
Right now I actually play more survivor than Killer, bcs it is way more relaxing.
Thats why I said, most of the Survivor Mains are bad bcs they have bad decisionmaking. They dont understand killer mechanics, they dont know maps/tiles/spawns/timers, etc.
You see it all the time.
Nobody is perfect and nobody is playing very well all the time. But the amount of bad decisions made by survivors blamed on killers if you watch replays/streams etc. is astounding!
Isnt it curious how everyone gets camped, tunneled and 3 genned at the same time in nearly every game so that the devs need to adress this?
Funny that most of the time ppl accuse me or other killers of tunneling and I rewatch the gameplay, they were just running into the killer or being easy targets. Same with 3 gens aside from past eruption meta. Most of the 3 gens were made by Survs not thinking about which gens to do when.
But yeah, Killers are not allowed to defend gens, so they chase, they are not allowed to tunnel. And dont camp so they dont hook, but then they slug which is also toxic!
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Gen Times are to flexible. They can go from 120sec per gen down to 30 or 20 seconds. There are teams that leave the exit gates after 4:45 min. Bring all the gen progression and regression perks in line so the extend of how fast or slow gens go is not that big.
Not a killer issue.
Maps! Map layouts are completely fcked up. Garden of Joy Main or Haddonfield main are the perfect example. If run correctly, the killer cannot physically catch you without major fuckups from survivors. Lower Tier Killers and esp. M1 Killers really struggle to the point that nearly everyone jus gives up chase if ppl run into GoJ Main Building, bcs there is not point in running it.
Not a killer issue.
Tiles/Pallets are spawning way to close. There are way to much Safe Pallets or safe loops to close to another. Add more Line of sight Blockers but make all loops mindgameable. Tunneling happens bcs there is no point in chasing a healthy survivor into shack next to a jungle gym.
Not a killer issue.
Make NOT tunneling more rewarding instead of making tunneling harder and harder. It will still remain the most effective way to play. f.e. add a "demoralizing debuff" to all survivors if everyone got hooked once and add another stack if everyone got hooked twice.
Not a killer issue.
This is just a washlist of balancing concerns that are nothing like what survivors have been getting. This is just begging for straight up killer buffs/survivor nerfs.
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After 6.1.0 announcing I already predicted that the huge buff to killer in that patch would let killer with skill of 5 able to play equally against teams of 6. Then after defeated by team 7. They would complain again.
I swear if Devs increase Gen time to 120sec. Average killer would able to play against top MMR, only to get defeated by Henz teams or something…you know where it goes?
”survivors are still strong”
Boiled down that average killers think theyre high MMR and the game should be balanced between them and Henz
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"You just obviously dont play against survs that know what they are doing"
"You just obviously dont play against good Survivors since you don't know what you're doing."
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Yes that’s exactly the mentality of the survivor mains on this forum.
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Debating that person seems like a waste of time.
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Are you a good killer?
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I stopped debating them a while back.
Mostly now I'm out to make sure everyone else sees how ridiculous their argument is and is hopefully dissuaded from making a similar one.
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Most survivors complaining is how unfun playing against tunneler/camper which are pretty much valid since only if survivors are completely out skill killer to fight against them, average survivors have no chance (hence why the complaining). Otherwise, I dont see survivors thinking they're high skilled and think average survivors should have a chance against Otz.
On the other hand...
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Yea. I win well over 90% of my games. I’m not saying I’m special btw: I took my lumps learning the game and have learned through experience. Anyone can get to a high level if they learn and practice. The problem is that very few people here are open to learning and would rather demand nerfs than adapt.
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Thank you for proving killers at high MMR is over performing.
I mean, for a killer mind gamed themselves at shack to the point hooked survivor can self unhook can win 90% of the game.
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Because I'll surge and painres it more that 8 times.
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if you surge and pain res a single gen 4 times (8 explosions) i think the match just ended for them imo
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That’s my point: the bar for high MMR is low. The actual good players are lumped in with a larger pool of bad players. Because bad survivors get mixed into my matches, I have a high win rate. If the MMR range was tightened up I would not win often.
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no.
I said this can lead to a situation where the survivors can drastically prolong the game way more than it needs to because that may actually prove advantageous.
I did. and correct, I have not said what the solution is. because something needs to be recognized as an issue before solutions are needed.
I gave a specific scenario. because that is how thought experiments work. on the given scenarios. and their answer does nothing for it.
please, do say EXACTLY what you think this favoritism is. because I see an issue that happens to affect killers, am I not allowed to talk about it then? Do you think I don't talk about survivor issues aswell?
and the advice is bad given the situation they are in. taking a chase means a race between getting 1 down and the survivors finising the gens.
did you?
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And the thread became another "Us vs Them", of course. All because of a mechanic that won't affect regular trials.
I know this pill is hard to swallow, but killer has been fully playable and winnable for years. This new mechanic is not going to change that.
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Seeeeems like you think it's unfair as we read the post to Peanits. We also see you pointing out that scenario and going to poke it. Mainly with: it's different from a killer camping a 3 gen because the killers objective isn't the gens, it's the prey. The prey need to focus on the gens. This solution eventually forces the killer to do their damn....job? and chase the prey (which is what we translated from what pulsar said in so many words). A killer camping a 3 gen isn't really doing their "job" while survivors making then working on it are slowly progressing theirs. If it would prove to be an advantage then maybe the killer should try to prevent it by trying to kill them? Two of the best regression events are rewarded via hooks and a third with a down so you don't usually need that many events on a gen before someone should be dead.
Weird how a lot of ppl focus more on keeping gens down than killing when playing the killer.
We'll also add that now both sides will need need to think about a 3gen as now the killers also need to measure if it's worth having those gens or not while a 3 gen is still a dangerous thing for near dead survivors.
Fair, but we personally disagree. We do wish to ask that since you claim there's an easy solution what is stopping you from saying it?
Their answer answered what they think you should do (with an accusation thrown in but it DOES answer). You may not like it but it's there and by all technicalities we see, it ain't exactly wrong.
Favoritism is favoring one side over all others. And from what we've seen it doesn't seem incorrect. We could be wrong but we don't see it in here.
Who the heck said your not allowed? Your allowed just as everyone else is allowed to disagree, accuse, or say whatever with the forum rules.
Now keep up with us here but in your scenario you never specified the number of survivors so we're going to assume 4. 4 still alive and kicking with 1 gen. In that situation, the killer is left with effectively 2 options. Stay and probably lose the gen without making headway, or chase and probably lose the gen and make progress? To us seems the chase advice is good, but who knows ~ If the killer was playing normal, they'd probably burnt through survivor resources, especially around the 3 gen they were taking so long to do, making a chase seem more and more enticing.
Sooo long answer short. Nope~ he got everything half asleep.
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Shush, don't throw reality in here, that's heretical.
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Well... someone has to say it :)
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On the flip side, if the survivors are beating down the killer hard where he has barely any, if not zero hooks by the time there's only 1 or 2 gens left, he should get some sort of freebie too like anyone that gets hooked counts as two hooked states? That road goes both ways. Killers are just as legitimate player as a survivor player is.
If we start giving sides some sort of benefit for losing to act as a catch up mechanic, we get all sorts of weird things going on. What's the point of strategizing and playing smart if you can just do whatever since the game will make it up to you? I don't think any of us truly want that. We should not ignore balance issues all in the sake of "Well, they were losing so it doesn't matter."
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While the idea is good in theory, there are glaring flaws in the new system.
It's not just the 3-gen situations that are being mitigated, this also puts a hard-limit on several Killer perks alongside making certain perks a near-detriment while affecting entire trials.
The most obvious example is Eruption (an already average perk after it's nerf) that, for every use of the perk, will take 2 "regression events" which makes the Killer able to apply the perk a measly 4 times before the gen can't regress anymore, which chances are might happen to one or two gens before endgame (not only through Eruption alone).
Also, every single perk that are activated via gen-kick, not even regression-based, now have a hard-limit to their value (Trail of Torment, Nowhere To Hide, Machine Learning, Dragon's Grip, Surveillance, etc.) which honestly makes them pretty bad since most of those perks were already niche but are now so limited that other info perks will get more value. Why use Nowhere to Hide or Trail of Torment mid-game if it might make the endgame harder? Those kind of perks often cause Killers to kick gens very often to use them and now the Killers have to calculate every use of their perk and if it's worth it to even use a perk that takes a "regression event" for the sake of temporary information or stealth.
Nowhere to Hide and Surveillance in particular are simply gutted by this change since it causes Killers to, in case of a hiding Survivor waiting to jump back on the gen, kick gens a lot more often (especially if said gen keeps getting repaired by a hidden Survivor that keeps coming back). But then the gens might be low (or even run out) on "regression events" even before the endgame, limiting Killers even before a 3-gen can create itself. The 3-gen "solution" should only affect the last generator and should have NO impact on the rest of the game.
In small maps, Surge could absolutely chew through your available "regression events" even before endgame if the Killer downs enough people, leaving you with like 4 regression events until the generator might as well have a constantly evolving BNP on it. I did, with bots and then with friends (and later in randoms), a few test runs with Surge and Nowhere To Hide/Surveillance (both serve the same purpose and have the same trigger) on The Game, Lérys and Midwich (chose small maps) so I could see it and in nearly every game at least one of the last gens was nearly depleted, making the last gen very hard to defend even though I hadn't even intended to make a 3-gen.
This also, like most changes, affects weaker/slow/M1 Killers far more than the top-tiers since the mobile/powerful Killers, if the Survivors manage to get this far, won't have any issues patrolling gens quickly without needing to kick often, leading to a further gap between them. How are Killers like Trapper or Nemesis supposed to guard a 3-gen (that the Survivors created) or even just gens in general during the game if Survivors are efficient? Too many kicks early-on and the end might be even worse.
This mechanic also empowers genrushing as Survivors can effectively no longer 3-gen themselves by carelessly doing gens that are all next to each other. This essentially means that the "3-gen situation" is reversed: Before, the Survivors were in trouble if they were careless and 3-genned themselves as the Killer had less area to patrol and could find them easily, now the Killer is on the clock if the Survivors 3-gen themselves since they have a limited ability to stall gens before the gens can't be stopped anymore. The Survivors can simply do gens very safely (run early at the first sign of the Terror Radius) and slowly without the Killer being able to do anything about it until it is eventually done after a large amount of time.
Basekit BT and EGC were necessary and healthy changes as the consequences of their absence were felt basically every game. The vast majority of games ending in a 3-gen aren't even because the Killer meant to but because the Survivors did every gens right next to each other in the name of speed. This mechanic essentially erases Survivors's mistakes and punishes Killers for them while limiting Killer's options during the whole game.
While the "obvious" solution would simply be to make gens spawn farther apart (or at least have a minimum distance requirements between them) this mechanic could be used if it only "kicks in" (heh) when the 4th gen is done to truly be an Anti 3-gen mechanic.
If the mechanic is only in effect during the last generator, it directly addresses the issue without making lots of perks, many of them not even being made to guard/regress gens, less desirable and not affecting perk builds too much. Killers that try to guard a 3-gen from the beginning (the problem we're trying to tackle) can no longer really do it since Survivors can simply do the other gens without pressure. It still removes a bit of depth from the Survivor's gameplay but making it active only during the last gen would at least leave Killer perk diversity less limiting. The Killers that end up in a 3-gen situation despite their intentions will at least have a fighting chance even if all 4 Survivors are still alive since they will have a full set of "regression event" and Survivors will likely be in worst shape if the Killer chased the whole trial instead of staying around the same area which means that purposeful 3-genners will be more punished.
The idea itself has potential, it just can't be active the whole trial. Survivors and Killers need to keep as many viable perks as possible (which is why most perk changes in PTB were great except for STBFL which was a complete missed opportunity and counter-productive change that I hope will get reworked another way) to keep the game interesting and discovering fun combos (FTP+Buckle Up is not one of those).
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People keep saying that 8 events will fly by, but I doubt it. If there is one thing we know about BHVR is that they love stats. I would believe that they have tracked gen regression events and that 8 is more than enough for average matches where this doesn't happen. If you look at the thread someone else made, it seems that this is correct and they saw that pattern tracking high level streamer games.
If you're not trying to 3 gen, you can still use pop, pain res, surge and be just fine. If you regress a gen 8 times you should be in a good spot or at least have bought yourself enough time for extra hooks and kills.
Also 3 genning won't be a survivor tactic with this change. If survivors have the opportunity to drag you wherever they want in chase and work on any gens, they will still choose the central ones so that you have no hope of extending the match out or making a comeback. The only time survivors would "tactically" work on gens and 3-gen themselves is if they can't safely work the gens in that area, meaning you are not venturing outside of one area (whether you're hard defending gens or just refusing to chase outside one spot). If this change goes live as-is and the meta survivor strat is to start 3-genning themselves on purpose to play a slow game and use up all the regression events, I'll eat my words, but I'm confident that won't really be the case.
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Can you find a video of one non-3 gen game (survivor-caused or otherwise) where a killer uses 8 regression events on a single gen, with any combination of these perks? I'm not being facetious or sarcastic, genuinely curious. Perks like surveillance, trail of torment, eruption, etc, will still be fine. I think the impact is more mentally on the killer thinking "this perk is technically a limited resource now" than it is actually impacting normal games.
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Killers have catch up mechanic. As I said before. 4 Gens done with 1 hook can lead to 2 kills, happen far more than 4 Gens remaining with 1 death lead to 2 escape.
The lack of catch up mechanic on survivor side is the reason why survivors give up on hook. Hook suicide on first hook is stupid, hook suicide when fail to toxic on killer is stupid (luckily they mostly DC, which bot replace them). But in cases of 1 death with 4 Gens remaining, no I dont play a match that Im guaranteed to die in the end, let me die now and go to the next match.
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The lack of catch up mechanic on survivor side is the reason why survivors give up on hook.Thank you for pointing this out.
The last few weeks have had a lot of arguments that I've been trying to wrap my head around and get the logic of, the catch up mechanic being one of the more confusing. Killers turning games around is by no means unusual, while once survivors fall behind the killer its pretty much always ggs.
The idea that the killer having limited gen kicks, even though those gen kicks are strong now, is somehow going to punish the killer is very strange.
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If that really turns out to be the case (which I'm not convinced about at all), then maybe Ruin rises to meta again. Bc Ruin allows you to start regression without using a stack. Sure it's still a hex, but when survivors are dead set on creating a 3 gen fast, they won't bother to look for a hex (or two, if you also bring Undying).
I also want to point: Even on live, when you get to a 3-gen situation, with all survivors still alive, the killer will lose most of the time. So even if your prediction turns out to be true, that doesn't really change much.
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Mr flashlight eould like to have a meeting with you
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Fail to dodge 8 flashlight save should lose the game...
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Also if someone gets 8 downs in range to surge a gen, and the gen is being worked on (surge doesn't apply to an empty gen), *and* the gen was still not completed over that time, that's called camping the gen, that is indeed the scenario this was made to counter
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