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Survivor-Caused 3-Gens. No Big Deal Anymore?
The proposed '3-gen solution' seems like it should genuinely nerf 3-genning killers while leaving 'normal' killers unaffected, but what about 3-gens caused by the survivors?
It seems like if survivors 3-gen themselves, it's no big deal anymore since they can just play it slow and defensive and burn through the killer's kicks.
This is exactly what many were worried about, as survivors 3-genning themselves and the killer capitalising on it was seen as fair. Now survivors can just do whatever gens they want and don't need to worry.
Comments
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Yeah, they said it would only affect killers who 3-gen from the get-go but that was a big fat lie.
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You have 8 Kicks per Gen, which are a total of 40% progress lost. This is without any further Regression (Survivors need to repair the Gens for 5% as well to stop them regressing) or any Regression due to Perks.
This should usually be enough to progress the game as Killer, unless you just want to guard the 3-Gen.
And, to be fair, even IF the Survivors caused the 3-Gen, at some point, both sides have to progress the game. So even if it is the Survivors fault, they have to try to repair the remaining Gen. And even if it is the Survivors fault, the Killer has to chase a Survivor at this point.
But dont worry, since the Survivors have to repair the Gen now for a few seconds, 3-Gens might not even be that much affected, since you dont need to kick them again if the Survivors were chased away from the Gen fast enough.
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We're pretty sure it's not 8 kicks but 8 burst regression (like 8 procs of surge)
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Its not 8 kicks, it 8 "regression events" which means that those "8 regression events" are going to fly by. The actual strat for survivors now might be to intentionally 3 gen themselves, and then force the killer into the point where they can't regress gens anymore.
They "fixed" the problem of 3 genning by making 3 genning a survivor tactic instead of a killer one.
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True, but most of the Regression in a 3-Gen is due to kicks, because Killers dont really down Survivors in the 3-Gen, since they run away.
But yeah, some instances of Regression could have already been used up by Surge or Pain Res before.
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I just want to quickly chime in and mention that this mechanic does not kick in immediately. In order for a generator to be blocked, it would need to suffer from 8 separate regression events first. For context, this is well above the average number of times a given generator will be damaged in a given match.
The system will kick in eventually in those scenarios, but you will still have an opportunity to capitalize on their mistake beforehand and secure some hooks.
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We're just playing devil's advocate here but most times we (and smart teammates) will actively look for a 3 gen and try to stop it early. The regression 7/10 times goes to one of the 3 gens.
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Right, but we are discussing how this creates a potential strategy for survivors where they intentionally 3 gen themselves, stall the game out, prerun every gen and basically make it so the killer can't regress gens anymore and then slowly working on them until they complete the gens. This is actually probably going to be a highly effective strategy.
Thus creating a loop where, yeah now the killer can't "stall the game out forever" instead the survivors can, but now its not forever, they just stall it out for a long time until the killer literally can't stop them anymore.
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This isn't accurate, though. You're only allowing 4 uses of eruption per generator. Typical matches has way more cases of eruption triggering. It's even less eruption allowed if the killer also brings another gen damaging perk. This is significantly going to affect all kinds of killers. For example, if I down a survivor and surge hits a gen, and a survivor pops back on it, once I kick that generator to prime eruption, then once eruption triggers, I've already lost 3 of my 8 stacks for that generator. That could easily all happen within a 30 second time period. So in 30 seconds, I've already lost 3 stacks. If I go kick the gen to use eruption again, suddenly I've already lost 6 of my charges. That means every 2 times surge procs, I get one less eruption use for that generator. Surge was nerfed but was also changed to be able to apply multiple times in succession to take advantage of survivors out of position while injured. We are supposed to be using surge, a lower damage regression hit but multiple times. With this change, surge users will have their perks entirely disabled pretty darn quick.
As a reminder eruption REQUIRES a kick before it can be used, so every eruption use takes 2 charges up. That adds up fast in NORMAL gameplay! How in earth does this only affect killers who camp 3 gens at the beginning of the match? This affects every killer who uses a generator damage perk. Hell, it even hurts trail of torment users who usually can kick any generator to go undetectable. Even THAT perk will suddenly be disabled for the match eventually? This is silly.
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fixed an instance where killers could capitalize on survivor mistakes, gotta keep those feng hats moving
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This kinda make low tier killers even worse because bad survivors in SWF can appeal to this strategy in case they are having a bad match. Now you HAVE TO down survivor as quickly as possible, or otherwise you will be punished.
Killer like Pig probably will suffer the most from this as they cannot instachase people and usually take the last gens to get hooks and deaths.
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Exactly my point. Yet another change the nurse/blight don't care about, but makes trapper and pig cry.
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There is nothing preventing survivors from doing that now. That's just how you break a hard 3 gen. Nothing is changing there aside from capping gen kicks at 8. There's no reason to even do that as a survivor team unless the killer is playing around that 3 gen from the start, in which case the gen order doesn't matter anyway.
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They probably didn’t intentionally lie. It’s more likely that they’re just extremely bad at the game and don’t understand it at all.
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Well currently the killer can keep regressing the gens. The point i'm making here is that it will make it so literally progress on the gens cannot possibly be deleted. So every second on the gen becomes a permanent second on the gen. So the strategy will be to just prerun super hard on those last 3 gens, and then eventually the killer can't regress them anymore, so that eventually you complete the gen.
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idk why a ´´normal killer´´ would kick the same generator 8 times
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Want to bet it will be exploited if not during the PTB then during the first couple of weeks after release?
I've got the popcorn ready.
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I think people fail to account how many times the killer kicks a gen. Even 4 is a bit high and unlike before where a survivor can just run and tap it they would actually need to be on it for 4.5 seconds to stop the regression. The minimum that a gen can lose from 8 regression hits is 20% and that is ONLY if its all surges or pain res on a gen with 2.5% progress. In generally 8 regression hits would take out 40% with hits, 60% if they are eruptions, 64% if they are all surge and more if they are pain res or pop. All of this is not counting the actual regression it experiences. This won't effect normal gameplay. You should not be causing more than 40% regression on a single gen in normal gameplay, (unless its pain res and pop which is already considered in this). The other way they could have gone is maxing the amount a gen could regress total which WOULD effect normal game play.
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in regards to survivor created three gen situations- i do unfortunately see this at least once or twice a day. maybe not every match, but it’s not as rare as you’d think. i feel like i work overtime trying to tackle middle map and clustered gens in order to make up for the fact that my soloQ teammates will often do far corner gens first. and i get it, they’re safer, but playing like that will always come back to bite.
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Not anymore. There will be yet another second chance mechanic for these.
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Making sure that player mistakes don't have lasting consequences is great game design - if one assumes that players are playing against npcs.
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By refusing to chase...wait
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I just thought of something... The killer brings in Hex: Ruin, and since the gens are now restricted to 8 separate regression events caused by either kicking or perks before they can no longer be regressed, Theoretically, does that mean a survivor can go to a gen, tap it, let Ruin start regressing it, and then keep tapping the gen until all 8 events are used up?
I mean yeah, the survivor has to repair 5% each time before letting Ruin do its thing again, but that's 40% of a gen repaired by essentially "tap" repairing it, and after the 8th time, nothing will make it lose progress anymore.
Upon realizing this, If it works the way I'm theorizing, I don't think I'll ever feel the need to cleanse Ruin ever again... Might as well change its name to Boon: Ruin.
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The Survivors 3 Genning themselves is on them so As Killer just remember that the Survivors want you to kick the Gen... so don't
Chase a Survivor get the Hook... forget about the gen for the chase
Let that Gen get done but also try to get some hooks while they repair that Gen
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That is not how it works at all. Ruin only initiates regression, it does not count as damaging a generator. Anything that inflicts less than 2.5% regression does not count as 1 of the 8 damages.
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Yes, I agree.So, the strategy for future survivors will be to repair from safe places or things at the edge of the map that are easy to work on gen, and then take their time to work on the last remaining 3gen.
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The actual strat for survivors now might be to intentionally 3 gen themselves, and then force the killer into the point where they can't regress gens anymore.I thought 'SWFs will exploit anti-face camp' and 'MFT nerf will actually be a buff' were the most outlandish arguments I would see, but 2024 is off to a strong start.
How in the world does this happen? Have survivors suddenly gotten infinite downs and pallets? If they are running around tapping gens why is the killer kicking these low progress gens? And not just kicking once, but 8 times?
Killers are getting a gen regression buff.
Typical matches has way more cases of eruption triggeringYou're triggering eruption more than 4 times a match on a gen? That's a "typical match"?
Eruption has a cooldown of 30 seconds. That means, at absolute fastest case scenario you would have to kick the gen, chase and down a survivor, go back to the gen 30 seconds later and kick it again, get into another chase and down a survivor, go to the gen 30 seconds later and kick it, get into yet another chase and down, go back to the same gen 30 seconds later and kick it, and then get into another chase with a survivor and down them.
Even if we presume the average time to chase is 30 seconds and you kick a gen immediately after the eruption cooldown ends, that's four minutes of game play on just this one gen (for which you also got 60% regression not counting any passive regression). This presumes an absolute perfect scenario where you go back to the gen to kick it right as the timer expires, much more likely this scenario would take twice that long. Either you should have a bunch of dead survivors or they should have been doing the other gens while this was going on.
Ruin is not a gen regression event.
This is exactly what many were worried about, as survivors 3-genning themselves and the killer capitalising on it was seen as fair. Now survivors can just do whatever gens they want and don't need to worry.Let's say the survivors completely ignore 3 gens.
Let's say you as the killer don't just camp those gens.
This means while four other gens have been getting done you've been chasing survivors, getting downs and hooks, eating through resources, etc.
So let's say we get to the situation where there are 3 gens left.
If you've been at least partially successful in your chases up to this point, the 8 gen regression events you have on the gens will be more than enough. You're chases should be shorter and the survivors should be facing death hook scenarios. Either you finish them off here, or they get a gen done, but you're unlikely to regress any gen 8 times in this situation.
If on the other hand you've lost the chases badly and you have four healthy survivors, well the gen regression limit is irrelevant. Either the survivors are going to make a mistake allowing you to snowball, or they are going to finish the gens before you can regress them that many times. Survivors splitting up on gens can finish them well before the killer can run back and forth kicking them each 8 times.
8 regressions is a massive amount. Like AFC maybe this will trigger once every couple months for killers during the course of normal gameplay (and that's a big maybe, I think this would happen even less than accidental triggering of the AFC), but realistically the only people who are triggering that are 3 gen campers from the start.
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Survivor need to sit on gen for 4,5 seconds to stop regression. If you can't hit them in this time it's not game's fault tho. If survivors 3-gen themself, you can defend them easier now because gen tapping removed. Which means they will give you a lot free hits for stopping regression. And this is very much will be advantage for killer. Get your free hit and then down them easily.
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This has been true for the life of the game. Most devs aren’t good at their own game, so that’s not a big deal. The problem is that these devs think they know better than people who play, which is how we get disasters like Skull Merchant.
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It’s hard to accept that this change will not affect normal gameplay when it’s pretty blatant that stacking regression perks has a good chance of hitting the cap. (Surge, Eruption, Pain Res, Pop)
I also don’t see how this doesn’t penalize Killers not playing for 3 gens ending up in one due to Survivors rushing gens on one corner of the map unless the intention was to minimize the time spent in a 3 gen match regardless of which side having created the scenario.
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Like everyone, I've got my problems with some dev decisions, but I am always amused/amazed by the stance that you can be bad at game design and still stumble into an incredibly financially successful video game.
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Aaaaaand the knee-jerk reactions start. Didn't take long. Survivors are not going to purposely 3 gen themselves lol one of the issues with killers zoning was that they would quickly go through survivor resources and quickly create deadzones. Survivors creating 3 gen zones will burn through pallets faster than killers will burn through their 8 regression events, which will quickly turn the tide in favour of the killer. This is not efficient. No one will be doing that on purpose.
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The only problem i can see is the nicher perks that involve regression. Machine learning. Trail of torment. Eruption/nowhere to hide for aura reveal. Surge for m1s. These are restricted to regression for some other benefit then just endless kicking. And they can easily hit the cap by just being used for their intended purpose. Surge may be the biggest since it can hit like 3 gens at once with one proc. But as long as i don't randomly run into the anti-kick stopping me for me playing normally should be fine. Maybe they could bump it to 10? Not sure. I do think the hard limit needs to be there just 8 might not be the right number.
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I have no clue why survs would intentionally three gen themselves to wait out the eight burst events on a gen. - But assuming the killer actually downed and hooked survivors before they got to the last gen most of the big regression perks should already have been proc-ed on the other gens; painres and pop, first and foremost. And if you got downs before they made it down to eight gens then you'll surely get enough downs before you reached your regression cap on one of the three remaining gens.
Though I do see where there's abuse-potential for stuff like Surge. - But that also seems to have an easy fix: regression events only start counting once a gen has progressed past 15 charges for the first time. So a gen that effectively isn't even progressed keeps its events. And as for Eruption; it should be easy enough to make it one regression event, since the gens are already marked as having Eruption applied to them, if the game can remember that then it can also remember to not take a second regression event.
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I noticed that too but I think this is partly the reason why they increased the base regression of each kick and removed gen tapping. I'm not sure, if this is a good idea (given that slowdown perks can already buy you a huge amount of time) but we'll see.
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I have no clue why it’s so believable that killers are willing to extend games to extreme lengths to defend a 3 gen, but it’s unbelievable that survivors would extend games to extreme lengths to break a 3 gen.
Also, if people honestly don’t think there wouldn’t be survivors that would purposely repair generators in short bursts and excessively hide, until the generators are damage immune… then we all should be fine if BHVR adds something in the game to prevent or punish survivors that are specifically trying to do that.
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...Because from a surv pov it's always more reliable and faster to not have a three gen.
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Do you not understand English or...? A normal killer that gets gifted a three-gen from survivors definitely could reach that cap easily. Also, it is disingenuous to say "kick 8 times" considering that perks like Pain Res and Surge also count as Regression Events.
Post edited by Emoba on1 -
I understand it almost perfectly, and English is not my first language, but I have a hard time trying to write it because i normally don´t use it
you just don´t need 8 surges in a single generator my man
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It's also disingenuous to say that 8 instances of Surge/Pain Res in the space of one gen being completed hasn't already won you the game.
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Who decides what a player needs or does not?
It's not about surge alone. Plenty of other perks now contribute to event burning. So let's make it harder to use those and easier to gen rush because you don't have to think which generator is worth repairing first now as survivor, but need to calculate if this gen should be kicked for regression or any other purpose as a killer.
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you don´t need 8 surges because 8 downs = 8 hooks, so you won the game
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Stopping 3 gen situations is what this mechanic should do. A 3 gen is not a survivors fault, its a issue by design.
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Down doesn't always mean a hook.
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Right. The developers don't understand the game. Do you hear yourself?
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So what happens if survivors accidentally make a 3 gen, and then decide their strategy is to purposely repair the 3 gen in short bursts of time, and excessively hide, until the generators become damage immune?
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It’s still a 3-gen and that is going to require some degree of commitment & risk to break through. The success of breaking the 3-gen at this point depends on how many survivors are left, who the killer is, their level of skill, and a few other factors.
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You seem to have forgotten two things. First, For the People saves, Flashlight saves, Flashbang saves, Pallet saves, Head On saves, Unbreakable, DS, Body blocking/Breakout, Boil Over, and Sabo saves all exist. So it is entirely possible to have surge go off 8 times and not have 8 hooks. Second, if those 8 hooks are arranged just wrong, all 4 survivors could be still alive which is not winning yet in just about anyone's book.
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Genuine question so I can understand this POV better: In this scenario where you've downed Survivors near the same generator 8 times, how many times do you think you should be able to make a critical mistake and lose a down to a save (flashlight, pallet, etc.) and still deserve to win the match?
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1: How frequently are survivors being saved in your scenario? Even if they manage to rescue half the time, which would be a sizable accomplishment, you've still gotten four hooks.
2: For surge to proc on all 8 of these downs and saves this also means that survivors have to continually be going down by the same gen which survivors either have to have put a lot of progress on or they need to continually working on it to get it to count as a gen regression event.
3: Even if this happens, was the killer able to get zero hooks on the other four gens survivors needed to finish?
4: Even if all the above is true, the survivors will basically need to do 6 gens to escape with how much time will be bled off the last gen. If that's not enough time to turn the game in the killer's favor they are pretty clearly outmatched and having additional gen regressions wouldn't make a difference.
I do think the hard limit needs to be there just 8 might not be the right number.I mean we have the PTB to test it out, but 8 regressions per gen is a giant number.
So what happens if survivors accidentally make a 3 gen, and then decide their strategy is to purposely repair the 3 gen in short bursts of time, and excessively hide, until the generators become damage immune?The same thing that happens already if the survivors rush in, fix gens, and rush out and the killer doesn't chase. They win. Since the end of Overbrine and chess merchant 4 survivors can break a 3 gen without too much trouble if the killer refuses to chase. If the killer is not getting downs the survivor gen repair speed will exceed killers ability to regress.
The only reason a killer might even get to 8 kicks in the new scenario is because they just got a buff to gen regression. That's actually given the killer more time to punish survivors who accidently 3 gen.
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