Decisive Strike and Noed is getting out of hand

ShyN3ko

NOED is fine, because you can counter it without perk.
And you can use a perk to counter it.
DS is OP, because you cant counter it without perk.
And you cant use a perk to counter it.
You can only dribble and reduce the stun time a little bit.
And dribble is situational.

Entità

@ShyN3ko said:
NOED is fine, because you can counter it without perk.
And you can use a perk to counter it.
DS is OP, because you cant counter it without perk.
And you cant use a perk to counter it.
You can only dribble and reduce the stun time a little bit.
And dribble is situational.

SWF teams can counter NOED: solo players can only hope other people cleansed all the totems they saw. Dribbling is not less nor more situational than many other mechanics. On the other hand, if the killer is as good as the survivor, how long will he be able to catch him again after 5 seconds of stunning? Are we really sure that Decisive Strike steals an unsustainable amount of time from the killer?

powerbats

@Tsulan said:

I would be totally ok with DS losing its auto escape and instead having a temp stun. While increasing its possible uses. (testing required)
IF (only if) Iron Grip gets back to its old status.
I would also buff Boil Over to actually make wiggling out faster.

The 1st yes but perhaps you have to do SAFE UNHOOKS to get more uses but each usage gets reduced in effectiveness. So if it's a 6 seconds stun (not an actual number placeholder only) then the next time it's 5 seconds and so on.

What was Iron Grip's old Status and how would affect say non DS users?

Yes I've always thought that perk is worthless unless you're on a map tile where it's useful.

Slayer

NoShinyPony said:

@Entità said:
Both of them are reasonable. The wide divide between a Solo Player and a SWF team is the real problem.

DS is not a problem when it's used by an average player. But in the hands of a very good survivor, DS is super unbalanced. And here is the thing with balance: A game has to be balanced around its best players, not around the average players.

And I agree, the divide between Solo and SWF is a big problem. But that doesn't mean that the current state of DS is not a problem.

I would like to see how many times ds can be used in hands of good survivor when killer knows about it and can counter it without unnerving presence. Cause as for me i rarely hit it when killer rotate his camera in any way so i always try to hit it when killer dont expect it. If survivor can hit it 99% times at the first pick up then i would say that ds is op perk otherwise its gambling while noed isnt.

Slayer

ShyN3ko said:

NOED is fine, because you can counter it without perk.
And you can use a perk to counter it.
DS is OP, because you cant counter it without perk.
And you cant use a perk to counter it.
You can only dribble and reduce the stun time a little bit.
And dribble is situational.

You cant counter noed. You either choose insta down or secondary objective

Tsulan

powerbats said:

@Tsulan said:

I would be totally ok with DS losing its auto escape and instead having a temp stun. While increasing its possible uses. (testing required)
IF (only if) Iron Grip gets back to its old status.
I would also buff Boil Over to actually make wiggling out faster.

The 1st yes but perhaps you have to do SAFE UNHOOKS to get more uses but each usage gets reduced in effectiveness. So if it's a 6 seconds stun (not an actual number placeholder only) then the next time it's 5 seconds and so on.

What was Iron Grip's old Status and how would affect say non DS users?

Yes I've always thought that perk is worthless unless you're on a map tile where it's useful.

Back when hooks could be permanently sabotaged, Iron Grip was strong enough to carry a survivor over half of the map.

NoShinyPony

@Entità said:
Are we really sure that Decisive Strike steals an unsustainable amount of time from the killer?

Yes. If a good surv is close enough to the next pallet or window, then the chase starts anew and one more gen can get done. There are some parts of maps where you can't do anything about getting looped as long as the surv doesn't make any mistakes.

If it's an average player with DS, then the DS is not a big problem.

Dokta_Carter

Slayer said:

ShyN3ko said:

NOED is fine, because you can counter it without perk.
And you can use a perk to counter it.
DS is OP, because you cant counter it without perk.
And you cant use a perk to counter it.
You can only dribble and reduce the stun time a little bit.
And dribble is situational.

You cant counter noed. You either choose insta down or secondary objective

Um... The secondary objective ia the counter my friend

Attackfrog

Currently, there is no killer equivalent to DS.

Equivalent would be: hit a skill check to instantly replace a survivor in the hook after he escapes.

powerbats

@Tsulan said:

Back when hooks could be permanently sabotaged, Iron Grip was strong enough to carry a survivor over half of the map.

Well with the map changes ie reduced pallets and window/vaulting locations, smaller map size like swamp tile, hooks having a minimum amount plus spacing. I don't think it needs to go back to that extreme especially if it's a simple stun.

Perhaps it could have a tighter grasp but only for a DS user and like the reduced effectiveness on additional uses for DS it could have same on same person. But down to a base minimum to where it is now and can't go lower than that.

Entità

NoShinyPony said:

@Entità said:
Are we really sure that Decisive Strike steals an unsustainable amount of time from the killer?

Yes. If a good surv is close enough to the next pallet or window, then the chase starts anew and one more gen can get done. There are some parts of maps where you can't do anything about getting looped as long as the surv doesn't make any mistakes.

If it's an average player with DS, then the DS is not a big problem.

That seems like saying Ruin is useless because sometimes its totem is found within 30 seconds: you are transforming particolar circumstances in a general rule.

Slayer

@Dokta_Carter said:
Slayer said:

ShyN3ko said:

NOED is fine, because you can counter it without perk.

And you can use a perk to counter it.

DS is OP, because you cant counter it without perk.

And you cant use a perk to counter it.

You can only dribble and reduce the stun time a little bit.

And dribble is situational.

You cant counter noed. You either choose insta down or secondary objective

Um... The secondary objective ia the counter my friend

When i take noed i dont lose anything cause survivors will either do objectives longer or i m going to have insta down. They cant counter it they only choose what they going to deal with . But if i fail ds as survivor it s like i didnt even had any perk at all thus it was countered .

JawsIsTheNextKiller

I'd like NoEd to pop up before anybody gets downed with it. So we at least know whether to play extra stealtily. When the gates are powered I'm put off doing rescues because of the THREAT of NoEd.

Maybe it should have an audio notification like the killers get so everyone knows that it is active and which direction it is in.

Cardgrey

@ShrimpTwiggs said:

@Cardgrey said:

@ShrimpTwiggs said:
I see both sides of the coin here. DS might not be an issue against casual players, but it has potential to really screw you over in a match. NOeD isn't much of a problem if your teammates know to break totems, but if you're playing solo and the killer is applying a good amount of pressure, you can't take all of them out by yourself. If your teammates fail to do any totems, you could be the one getting punished by it.

Idk man honestly I consider noed weak. Like u take that with the plan of Them getting gens done. I run ruin,iron grasp,nurses and discordance/ franklins and normally get at least 3 by 1-3 gens left.

It's incredibly weak against SWF, but against solos, it can be devastating if you're playing a killer that can apply serious pressure, like the Nurse or Billy. If you don't give the survivors time to do anything but gens, it can net you a 4k.

Not saying it doesn’t have a impact thou, as a wraith main I just don’t use it. And maybe it’s made me better for not needing it. I 70% or so 3k 2 gens left 85% if u count 2k and about 15% I get destroyed. (Noed probably would be good here) I just don’t want to get lazy(and I will) and not push myself. It’s a tendency I have.

Timo425

With good survivors DS is OP, because it makes the first chases longer - where the killer is most vulnerable, because he needs a hook early. Postponing early hooks can be devastating for killer.
NOED against good survivors is weak, not to mention the killer basically plays with 3 perks until endgame and by then survivors have already probably pipped.

ShrimpTwiggs

@Cardgrey said:

@ShrimpTwiggs said:

@Cardgrey said:

@ShrimpTwiggs said:
I see both sides of the coin here. DS might not be an issue against casual players, but it has potential to really screw you over in a match. NOeD isn't much of a problem if your teammates know to break totems, but if you're playing solo and the killer is applying a good amount of pressure, you can't take all of them out by yourself. If your teammates fail to do any totems, you could be the one getting punished by it.

Idk man honestly I consider noed weak. Like u take that with the plan of Them getting gens done. I run ruin,iron grasp,nurses and discordance/ franklins and normally get at least 3 by 1-3 gens left.

It's incredibly weak against SWF, but against solos, it can be devastating if you're playing a killer that can apply serious pressure, like the Nurse or Billy. If you don't give the survivors time to do anything but gens, it can net you a 4k.

Not saying it doesn’t have a impact thou, as a wraith main I just don’t use it. And maybe it’s made me better for not needing it. I 70% or so 3k 2 gens left 85% if u count 2k and about 15% I get destroyed. (Noed probably would be good here) I just don’t want to get lazy(and I will) and not push myself. It’s a tendency I have.

I don't use it either, but I've been on the receiving end, where I'd take out three totems and still end up dying because my teammates didn't do totems.

Cardgrey

@ShrimpTwiggs said:

@Cardgrey said:

@ShrimpTwiggs said:

@Cardgrey said:

@ShrimpTwiggs said:
I see both sides of the coin here. DS might not be an issue against casual players, but it has potential to really screw you over in a match. NOeD isn't much of a problem if your teammates know to break totems, but if you're playing solo and the killer is applying a good amount of pressure, you can't take all of them out by yourself. If your teammates fail to do any totems, you could be the one getting punished by it.

Idk man honestly I consider noed weak. Like u take that with the plan of Them getting gens done. I run ruin,iron grasp,nurses and discordance/ franklins and normally get at least 3 by 1-3 gens left.

It's incredibly weak against SWF, but against solos, it can be devastating if you're playing a killer that can apply serious pressure, like the Nurse or Billy. If you don't give the survivors time to do anything but gens, it can net you a 4k.

Not saying it doesn’t have a impact thou, as a wraith main I just don’t use it. And maybe it’s made me better for not needing it. I 70% or so 3k 2 gens left 85% if u count 2k and about 15% I get destroyed. (Noed probably would be good here) I just don’t want to get lazy(and I will) and not push myself. It’s a tendency I have.

I don't use it either, but I've been on the receiving end, where I'd take out three totems and still end up dying because my teammates didn't do totems.

In all respect are u blaming others for u getting hit

Cardgrey

I mean ya u pop last gen or last gen gets done and he’s on u it sucks idk more often then not I just leave ASAP and it’s not a issue.

ShrimpTwiggs

@Cardgrey said:

@ShrimpTwiggs said:

@Cardgrey said:

@ShrimpTwiggs said:

@Cardgrey said:

@ShrimpTwiggs said:
I see both sides of the coin here. DS might not be an issue against casual players, but it has potential to really screw you over in a match. NOeD isn't much of a problem if your teammates know to break totems, but if you're playing solo and the killer is applying a good amount of pressure, you can't take all of them out by yourself. If your teammates fail to do any totems, you could be the one getting punished by it.

Idk man honestly I consider noed weak. Like u take that with the plan of Them getting gens done. I run ruin,iron grasp,nurses and discordance/ franklins and normally get at least 3 by 1-3 gens left.

It's incredibly weak against SWF, but against solos, it can be devastating if you're playing a killer that can apply serious pressure, like the Nurse or Billy. If you don't give the survivors time to do anything but gens, it can net you a 4k.

Not saying it doesn’t have a impact thou, as a wraith main I just don’t use it. And maybe it’s made me better for not needing it. I 70% or so 3k 2 gens left 85% if u count 2k and about 15% I get destroyed. (Noed probably would be good here) I just don’t want to get lazy(and I will) and not push myself. It’s a tendency I have.

I don't use it either, but I've been on the receiving end, where I'd take out three totems and still end up dying because my teammates didn't do totems.

In all respect are u blaming others for u getting hit

No, I'm blaming the others for letting the killer gain a massive advantage. Regardless of if it's me getting one hit downed or someone else.

Tucking_Friggered

@Nickenzie said:
Orion said:

Just break the totem.

This isn't exactly fair to the survivor role. Hear me out, I can cleanse every totem I see but still have NOED activate because my teammates didn't help me (ironically they escape with me facing the punishment). Basically, it's a 1v1 situation (since I'm the only survivor cleansing all if the totems) when the game is built around a 1v4. Knowing this, a single survivor will struggle to find 5 totems since that task is meant for all survivors. Here's a rework I have in mind that's more solo Q survivor friendly while remaining strong. No One Escapes Death:

Progress infuriates you and calls upon the wrath of the Entity. Every time a generator is repaired, gain a 10% haste effect for the next 30 seconds. Upon the completion of the final generator, all pallets remaining in the trial are destroyed.

Notice: It's not a Hex

Nope. Break the totem. It's one. You can cleanse them all before it even fires. No use for an all pallets broken function when the gens are done as most of the key pallets are already broken and what aren't won't matter as survivors hide until the gates open. As for a 30 second haste, bleh. Useless unless in a chase and even then redundant with bloodlust. Far too specialized to ever equal exposed when you need it. The perk is named No One Escapes Death. Your rework won't live up to that in any sense of the word. NOED affects one group, albeit the biggest, the gen rushers.

NMCKE

Cardgrey said:

@ShrimpTwiggs said:

@Cardgrey said:

@ShrimpTwiggs said:

@Cardgrey said:

@ShrimpTwiggs said:
I see both sides of the coin here. DS might not be an issue against casual players, but it has potential to really screw you over in a match. NOeD isn't much of a problem if your teammates know to break totems, but if you're playing solo and the killer is applying a good amount of pressure, you can't take all of them out by yourself. If your teammates fail to do any totems, you could be the one getting punished by it.

Idk man honestly I consider noed weak. Like u take that with the plan of Them getting gens done. I run ruin,iron grasp,nurses and discordance/ franklins and normally get at least 3 by 1-3 gens left.

It's incredibly weak against SWF, but against solos, it can be devastating if you're playing a killer that can apply serious pressure, like the Nurse or Billy. If you don't give the survivors time to do anything but gens, it can net you a 4k.

Not saying it doesn’t have a impact thou, as a wraith main I just don’t use it. And maybe it’s made me better for not needing it. I 70% or so 3k 2 gens left 85% if u count 2k and about 15% I get destroyed. (Noed probably would be good here) I just don’t want to get lazy(and I will) and not push myself. It’s a tendency I have.

I don't use it either, but I've been on the receiving end, where I'd take out three totems and still end up dying because my teammates didn't do totems.

In all respect are u blaming others for u getting hit

Eventually a killer will hit you regardless how good the survivor is because humans are known for mistakes. However being severely punished for attempting to cleanse totems shouldn't be a thing.

Cardgrey

@Nickenzie said:
Cardgrey said:

@ShrimpTwiggs said:

@Cardgrey said:

@ShrimpTwiggs said:

@Cardgrey said:

@ShrimpTwiggs said:

I see both sides of the coin here. DS might not be an issue against casual players, but it has potential to really screw you over in a match. NOeD isn't much of a problem if your teammates know to break totems, but if you're playing solo and the killer is applying a good amount of pressure, you can't take all of them out by yourself. If your teammates fail to do any totems, you could be the one getting punished by it.

Idk man honestly I consider noed weak. Like u take that with the plan of Them getting gens done. I run ruin,iron grasp,nurses and discordance/ franklins and normally get at least 3 by 1-3 gens left.

It's incredibly weak against SWF, but against solos, it can be devastating if you're playing a killer that can apply serious pressure, like the Nurse or Billy. If you don't give the survivors time to do anything but gens, it can net you a 4k.

Not saying it doesn’t have a impact thou, as a wraith main I just don’t use it. And maybe it’s made me better for not needing it. I 70% or so 3k 2 gens left 85% if u count 2k and about 15% I get destroyed. (Noed probably would be good here) I just don’t want to get lazy(and I will) and not push myself. It’s a tendency I have.

I don't use it either, but I've been on the receiving end, where I'd take out three totems and still end up dying because my teammates didn't do totems.

In all respect are u blaming others for u getting hit

Eventually a killer will hit you regardless how good the survivor is because humans are known for mistakes. However being severely punished for attempting to cleanse totems shouldn't be a thing.

If the exit gates are on i don’t care about a hooked person.. if they have noed I’m out of there I owe no one.

Cardgrey

If the exit gates are powered... leave if they have noed. I don’t owe anyone a save.

Detective_Jonathan

If you see a Freddy with no ruin. It is common sense that said Freddy is going to have ruin, Now that you have this knowledge present within your mind. You have the secondary objective of finding all the totems and breaking them. It is common sense, everyone knows this. Now, for the other occurrences when it is a killer that is running ruin, it is still the best option to try and break all the totems because you never know. Even with some killer like Myers, still, break the totems. Because a killer with a one shot down already implemented apparently isn't enough for some players.

As far as DS goes? it really isn't that bad, most players that run DS are bad and would go down again as soon as they get off your shoulder, a couple seconds of a stun animation isn't going to kill you.

TLDR: Git Gud

Zavri

i haven't seen noed used in over 100 games.

it's also COMPLETELY counterable by destorying all 5 totems.

I do see DS in like 1 out of 3 games though, but they are easy enough to deal with.

se05239

@Vietfox said:
Different year same topic...

Some things never change.
On topic, I don't believe that DbD would become lesser of a game with the removal of both perks. Here's the catch though, both needs to go or none at all.

Vietfox

@se05239 said:

@Vietfox said:
Different year same topic...

Some things never change.
On topic, I don't believe that DbD would become lesser of a game with the removal of both perks. Here's the catch though, both needs to go or none at all.

I personally don't have any problem with any of them. Maybe increase the wiggle progress needed for non obsession DS users per each survivor using it?