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Pig Players, How Would You Change Her?
Despite the "Nerf Pig" joke that's existed in this community for who knows how long, I think we can all agree that the Pig is on the weaker side of the Killer roster. She is one of the six Killers getting "tweaks" in March, and after seeing the recent Hillbilly and Onryo reworks, I'm interested to see what changes they've got in mind.
The main issues with the Pig for me are:
- Lacking stealth ability, being forced to move at 90% movement speed makes crouching painful
- Lacking chase ability, Survivors can outplay the ambush pretty easily or simply leave loops before you can charge it up
- Mediocre slowdown without add-ons; with add-ons the RBTs become really oppressive
For me, Pig is a jack of all trades, master of none. Mediocre stealth, mediocre chase and mediocre slowdown, there's not really a specific area she excels in. Against good survivors and teams, Pig is basically unplayable without abusing her best add-ons that affect RBTs. IMO she'll be fine if they buff her stealth and ambush, but what do you guys, specifically the Pig mains out there, think she needs? Do you think moderate tweaks to her stealth and ambush are fine, or does she need a rework?
Comments
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Not much tbh.
100% crouching movement speed instead of 90%. Still slower than mormal, same speed as survivors, but more viable for tracking them, and aproaching from a distance at a reasonable speed.
Slightly faster crouch animation, making it less clunky, and Ambush slightly more accessible.
I play Pig a lot because I'm happy with her kit, more or less.
I expect she'll mainly get changes to her traps, which I think is unnecessary, but probably something I can live with.
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I dunno but I bought this t-shirt:
https://www.redbubble.com/i/t-shirt/the-pig-dbd-saw-by-pumkinpatchwork/144463638.WFLAH.XYZ
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screams and stopping interacting no longer reset box progress then a bunch of buffs to the rest of her kit
110% crouch speed
0.7s crouch time (at 3.6m/s)
0.7s uncrouch time (at 3.6m/s)
Visible terror radius (aka you can see it shrink and regrow with a small radius on the ground preferably all stealth effects would be visible like this to let you better use stealth as you approach where you think survivors are)
Bonus trap placement speed by the bag / crate of gears basekit (and removed from the addons) so you can save a bit of extra time trapping survivors
Traps can be used after all gens are powered but always require 2 searches to remove
Traps are disabled when there is only 1 survivor remaining (so normal hatch and endgame after hatch is closed)
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I think it seems a waste of an oppertunity to add more "play a game" into this, getting head traps I adore but could we play more games? o.O
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Having harder Skillchecks
No great skillcheck zones
Survivors can't interact with the Boxes until a Gen is done... I know that it won't change much but
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Almost all good, but I don't understand this:
Traps can be used after all gens are powered but always require 2 searches to remove
Traps are disabled when there is only 1 survivor remaining (so normal hatch and endgame after hatch is closed)
Traps are slowdown, not a real damaging power. I get it sucks losing part of your power in endgame, but slowdown is no longer necessary, and I can't see much good coming from able able to prevent survivors leaving after they've already completed gens. After all it is the survivors choice to complete a gen and activate a trap, not yours. This just seems to open the door for more of the old Pig trap abuse mechanics, as you wouldn't want your trapped survivors going off wasting tine anymore, you'd be more inclined to tunnel/harass them.
The second part just invalidates traps entirely. It means as long as all untrapped survivors leave through the exit gate first, the trapped survivor has nothing to worry about. This means even traps placed before endgame, so long as there's only one active when the last gen pop, it's effectively not active at all. This is a complete nerf to your fourth trap in most cases.
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I think one thing to note about Pig's crouch is it doesn't count as being in chase, and thus RBT count down. Survivors can run in front of a crouched Pig and never activate a chase. Currently she can't really chase Survivors crouched since...she's slower than survivors. If they ever make this NOT be the case, they would also need to ensure it counts as being in chase.
Current PTB Sadako works like this while demanifested, so I don't see this being a problem.
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That would be entirely fair. It would solve much of the issues with her traps without being a true nerf to them.
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Good catch, you can now start chases with survivors while crouching, if that ruins stealth too much then make it only if they have a reverse bear trap that you can "chase" while crouching
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No because this is such a good point! Playing against Pig should feel more like a Saw movie. Not exactly necessary but would make her much more interesting. I saw a rework concept somewhere where Survivors start with head traps installed and they're activated by doing conspicious actions. Imagine that with voiceovers from Jigsaw.
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Good catch, ok change the 2nd one to if 3 survivors have been sacrificed or killed by any means then traps are disabled. Meaning if you get someone down in endgame give them a party hat and their team leaves them behind they are stuck there with you (still could get hatch)
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Exactly! also dont forget the t shirt i got! lol I need more saw dymanics in this dbd, I think I have said so in a past 2019 etc post lol
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I agree, I think tweaks to her stealth and ambush are the main things she needs. The crouching and ambush mechanics feel so clunky and slow that they're not worth using half of the time. They could go a step further and allow her to fast vault while ambushing. I just don't like how all of Pig's power reside on the RBTs which I don't think is a good design.
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Bring back 28 metres TR please.
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When interacting with the boxes the trap activates.
Activating through conspicious actions would be great and lore accurate.
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Outside of traps I would buff all aspects of crouching and her ambush to be useful.
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I doubt it would ruin stealth since chases only start if a survivor is running in front of you within close range. Typically if you are sneaking up on people, it's not when they are running directly in front of you.
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Make her ACTUALLY consistent with other stealth killers, instead of the consistency rule they nerfed her for then completely ignored in every stealth killer released after her. That's the main issue IMO.
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I'd like to have more kinds of traps. Be able to trap lockers, doorways, windows and such but have some sort of visible tell for those paying attention. Keep the party hat limit, but have a separate limit for minor traps that can be active at any given time. These wouldn't kill, but have minor effects such as temporarily blind, exhaustion, or other types of status effects. At worst, they could damage from healthy to injured, and if already injured, cause deep wounds.
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I just want a faster crouching ability and for crouched movement speeds to be a bit quicker. It would make her stealth so much more viable to use against the more gen efficient teams and more useful when mind gaming at loops and tiles.
That's all, really. I don't think she needs any crazy buffs. But I'm not a pig main and I don't play her very often. There could be other ways to buff her that I can't think of.
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Buff her crouch speed.
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Nerf every other killer but Pig to balance things out. (j/k)
One meta kind of off topic note about Pig: her Iri addons are, in my opinion, very well designed. They have clear benefits and losses. You gain a power and give something up in return. There's no real super sweat version of Pig were you just give yourself a bunch of powerful bonuses at no cost like you can with some other killers. I think if more killers were treated like that on the addon front the balance issues would be clearer.
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After several iterations of this discussion I'm now pretty settled on my Pig changes:
Buffs to Chase
- Crouching movement speed +5% (3.60 -> 3.8 m/s)
- Ambush charges +33% faster (0.75 -> 0.5s).
- Ambush scream starts after 60% charge (0.30s).
- Ambush lunge time +20% (2.0 -> 2.5s)
Nerfs to Reverse Bear Traps
- Saw traps cannot pop while the survivor is searching Pig Jigsaw boxes.
Or
- While searching a Jigsaw Box, each Great Skill pauses the head trap timer for 2s. (Jigsaw boxes have an 80% skill chance every 1 second)
This improves the 1 area she really struggles, which is chasing around loops, but gives a little bit of safety to survivors removing their RBTs to compensate.
Post edited by UndeddJester on1 -
I think they cant. She has build-in slowdown. If her stealth is as strong as Wraith, GF, then beartrap should go.
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and just in case thats not enough it also pauses the timer when within 16m (to prevent moonwalking after survivors) in this theoretical
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Pigs can do that much now at normal speeds. Just gets kinda tricky vaulting things, or keeping at it for an extended time.
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- Same crouch/uncrouch time and reduced move speed.
- Allow vaulting/breaking pallets/damaging gens while crouched.
- Roar when ambush begins, scream on swing; sadly, no more oink for boop.
- Faster recovery if stunned or colliding with environment during ambush.
- RBTs cannot be removed until activated.
- RBTs automatically activate if placed during endgame.
- RBTs deactivate if the survivor is within 12 meters of the gate when the RBT is put on them, or is carried within 12 meters while wearing an RBT.
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I WAS SUMMONED!!!!
Changes for our lady would be:
- faster crouch movement speed (100% movement speed base)
- faster crouching and uncrouching (combat straps basekit)
- longer ambush duration
- survivors can longer die to a rbt while searching a jigsaw box
The RBTs are extremely oppressive even without addons. You just need to know how to use all the different rng-variations correctly.
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I feel like i heard these suggestions before somewhere....
Absolutely agree! with all of them 🐽
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What can I say? When our resident Pig Main speaks... only a fool doesn't listen... especially as an aspiring Pig main myself🤘🐽🤘
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Your making me blush ♥️🐽♥️
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IMO, the complete RNG swing on the RBTs can be controlled to make things better for both sides. Just make each RBT take a random number from 2 to the total number of boxes -1, and that's how many boxes the survivor will need to clear to get the RBT off. This'll still put a tangible pressure on them, but they won't randomly get sniped for no reason, while simultaneously cutting off the absolutely terrible outcome of them lucking out on the first box and getting rid of Pig's major slowdown in no time at all.
And then just work on Ambush to make it more functional, like increasing the crouched movespeed and perhaps making the roar occur at the end of the charge-up, rather than the start. (And make a brown add-on to have the roar at the start. For meme purposes.)
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- Make the crouching and uncrouching animations faster
- Increase slightly the reach of the ambush, or perhaps the speed.
- Make her speed while crouching be 100%
- Make the timers of the Reverse Bear Traps shorter, not too much, but enough to make a difference.
I never saw pig as a stealth killer per se, I mean, you can see her easily from afar when she is crouching. I always thought that the RBT were meant to be her strongest feat but in reality they are not. I see more pig players relying on using mindgames with the ambush in-chase, and I am sure that is not the intended playstyle for her. Most times I see RBTs be ignored, it takes so long for it to kill you that reparirng one or two gens seems affordable for survivors while one has a trap on him. I would also make some status effect like, for example, hemorrage, be inflicted to survivors who wear a reverse bear trap a basekit feat. In my experience, traps are not that punishing for survivors, especially in swf.
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Make the timers of the Reverse Bear Traps shorter, not too much, but enough to make a difference.
Strong disagree on that one. An RBT kill should be a failure on the survivor's part, not random luck. The more RNG gets involved, the more terrible she is to face and balance. If she can get a kill in a single down by pure chance, you can't buff anything else in her kit because she can, theoretically, be by far the strongest killer in the game.
In actuality it's likely not going to happen, but it's an eventuality you have to account for.
RBTs should be retooled to be for slowdown, not for killing directly.
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All that said... I do also really like this variation... I tend to use John's medical File and Combat Straps in majority of buiilds just cause it feels so much nicer to play...
With this at base and the longer ambush lunge, we would be able to crouch to mind game quickly, and if we commit to the ambush, the longer lunge would be super helpful at larger tiles and at shack... and we'd still have access to the RBT powahs...
What do you reckon to adding:
- Ambush scream starts after 60% charge (0.30s).
On your list? The crouch itself is a mind game, and this would strengthen that mind game more, as the survivor has less time to realise you're committing to an ambush (which you can still cancel).
The only sad part is I love the ability to spam roar at survivors, which I find a suprisingly useful communicaiton tool when needed... although my brain tells me its a good idea... my heart does not agree🤔
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I have the feeling we have a ton alike in our gameplay. I have medical file and combat straps autolocked on her. They really do make her a lot more fun to play an open up a lot of interesting mindgames and plays in general.
I left the ambush roar out for one reason only: the memes. (You know what i mean)
Otherwise, i absolutely agree! The roar could / should start later. If it where not for the memes it would destroy, i'd even suggest putting the roar on the ambush attack entirely.
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- insta crouch like ghost face
- ambush charge in like 0.5 seconds
- faster ambush speed
- more ambush range
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In a discord channel we were discussing how to "fix" the problem of the Pig chasing the survivor with an active bear trap while crouched, not giving a chance of them to remove the trap
I gave some suggestions to address that and buff the Pig at the same time:
- Survivor's with an active RBT that are put into the dying state automatically breaks the trap
- The Pig starts the game with 2 more traps base kit
- Rules Set number 2 add-on base kit
- The search speed of Jigsaw boxes is reduced by 50%
Still, some people were saying this is a nerf to the Pig...
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No, they can. I am talking about her terror radius more specifically They specifically nerfed her saying that they wanted all stealth killers to have a 32 meter terror radius, then they released every stealth killer since with 24-meter terror radius, and Myers is still 32-meters but only in T3, otherwise he's 16.
Here is a full video on all the nerfs she's had over the years, and how it became a meme.
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I didnt say her nerfs were needed (well body block was).
I meant the different between Wraith, GF, Pig is Wraith has speed, GF has instant down, Pig has slowdown.
If you buff Pig in chase aspect as strong as Wraith and GF. Pig would be equal to them PLUS the slowdown. I would buff her slowdown instead
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Her terror radius is the "consistency" I spoke of. Period.
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Agree so hard. Crouch and Ambush are so painful to use without add-ons. I also think they could take it one step further and rework the ambush slightly so Pig can fast vault mid-ambush. I've seen people suggest giving her ambush the ability to break pallets but Mandy isn't the type of killer to use brute force hence why I think a fast vault mechanic would be better suited.
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Bikini skin
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Also a nice idea.
PIGGY STRONK🔥🐽🔥
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Traps could be made less abusable if their timers didn't progress while rummaging a Jigsaw box, and that time was instead taken off the timer after a completed failed attempt.
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- Increase crouched movement speed to 4.0 m/s from 3.6 m/s
- Make the undetectable status effect happen instantly after the crouch animation is done.
- Undetectable now lingers for 3 seconds after uncrouching.
- The pig only starts the roar when the ambush attack actually starts
- Reduce crouch time to 0.75 seconds from 1.2 seconds.
- Rework traps to be more of a threat, but less prone to tunneling/scumminess
- Traps no longer require a generator to "activate" and activate immediately.
- Reduce death timer to 120 seconds from 150 seconds.
- If a survivor is in a chase, the timer no longer pauses, but reverses, granting an additional 1 second of trap time for every second in a chase
- If the trap death timer increases to 150 seconds, the trap is automatically removed (30 seconds of hard tunneling)
- If the survivor is downed, the timer reverses at twice the speed giving back 2 seconds for 1 second spent down.
- If the trapped survivor is hooked, the trap is automatically destroyed.
- While working a box, the timer is paused
- While wearing a trap, survivors gain the endurance status effect.
- Increase the amount of traps the pig gets from 4 to 6.
- Maintain a level of normalized RNG for traps:
- 1 trap takes 1 search
- 2 traps take 2 searches
- 2 traps take 3 searches
- 1 trap takes 4 searches
- Trap order is randomized.
The general gist here is to increase the power of the ambush attack to actually make it an "ambush" as well as make it more viable in chases but still mindgamable by both sides (i.e. which direction you are dashing in a loop, or if the survivor leaves the loop etc.) While also increasing the lethality of the traps themselves and making them more of a threat that needs to be dealt with (more traps, immediate activation, less time) but effectively making it so a survivor with a trap is by design supposed to be ignored by the killer and if they try to tunnel that survivor, they will have a bad time.
If this make the pig too strong, consider reducing the traps back down to 4, or slightly weakening the ambush attack.
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I don't really know the details but I think you need to buff her ambush somehow so that it's actually usable most of the time even without addons, and weaken her traps slightly.
As it stands her default ambush is only useful around short loops and maybe medium loops if you bring addons for it. And even then, the moment survivor see what you're doing they usually just run to another tile. It's just so weak and it's the obvious choice to receive a big buff. Heck even just adding a couple of her ambush addons basekit so it's usable around more loops in the game would help a bit, but I do think it needs more than that so survivors can't just run away the moment they see you crouch.
Her traps are... rather problematic, especially with Tampered Timer + a gear addon. Even after the nerf a while ago it can still put survivors in a no-win situation if a gen pops while they're on hook and they end up having to search 4 boxes. Literally just getting interupted a single time can give them no chance to get the trap off, and that's just not fair. They can play 'perfectly' and still get a head-pop.
This isn't -too- much of a problem now, mainly because Pig is so weak outside of her traps and so she isn't played much. If she became a lot stronger with other buffs and got picked more though, I think the issues her traps can cause would need to be ironed out.
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All the obvious buffs have been stated already (rightly so), so I'll throw in one from left field.
Make it so she can vault pallets and windows mid-Ambush attack just like Wesker.
Pig can now also replenish missing traps, but it requires her to do some in-game action to recycle a used trap.
Ambush lasts 20% longer. Not quite as long as SnD, but enough to give her dash a much-needed boost.
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This won't do anything except make her a noob stomper.
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I don't think do...
But the skillcheck can't be the same size as Gen's (I don't know for sure)
And having a great skillcheck zone also doesn't make much sense
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mhhh
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