How you would change Decisive Strike?
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Killers already have very strong PR + Pop combo. I don't know what they need more? Also Corrupt is still good perk for killers like Trapper, Myers.
I don't know what perks will make killers stop tunnelling? Because even in the strongest anti-gen meta (gen kicking meta) killers never stopped tunnel.
Obviously solution is not buffing killer perks, solution is punishing tunnelling. And for counter slugging part, DS maybe should stop the timer when survivor is on the ground.
I am not saying weak killer perks should not be buffed btw. I am just saying buffing them won't make killers stop tunnelling. So this is not the solution.
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Taking options away and constant nerfs lead to the tunnel meta being this bad. All a ds strike basekit or buff is going to do is lead to a slugging meta, and what's after that? You're going to see a lot of killers dissappear because they feel forced into being powerless.
Buff bbq, buff devour hope, heck buff all hex perks so they start getting use. Make it so that killers don't feel the need to tunnel, especially at high mmr. Honestly, the mmr pendulum is the main problem
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And as i said, i am not against buffing killer perks but that's not the solution for tunnelling. Just because i have strong perks, this won't make me to stop tunnelling because it's easy and effective.
Also i disagree with buffing Devour. It's already very strong perk. Hex perks in general, needs buff. That's one i agree with you.
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Basekit ds will just lead to the killer slugging you out. Fix the base issue and tunneling goes away, everything else will just feel bad to one side or the other
People forget that tunneling is only this bad now because every single side objective the survivors could do got nerfed into the ground leading to gen rush only. In high mmr, that's the only playstyle and it hurts the killer experience. Killers bring the toxicity right back down
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And where i asked base-kit DS? Just make this perk good enough like old DS.
And what is the base issue?
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I clicked post too fast. Old ds got nerfed because survivors abused it like there's no tomorrow. It was in everyone's build and they'd play into it. It didn't feel good to get hit with it as killer because it was punishment for playing the game
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5 second stun, 60 second duration
Disables Killer power for 12 seconds
Has 1 token, allows you to choose which pick up you want to activate it on. Remove skill check.
Disables all your other perks for the 60 second duration
Stunning the Killer with DS leaves you Broken for the following 80 seconds
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It has. I've seen it.
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Some of my first memories with this game were the no mither/unbreakable builds using DS.
Cool. Then why is it every time I run into that exact scenario I don't spam my buttons and still get into those 50/50 scenarios with the pickup techs?
And yeah, good luck going around survivors in indoor maps/doorways with walls. And we're still talking about the high chance of them bringing both DS and Unbreakable.
And no, if they bodyblock correctly you lose ALL pressure, especially if they run DS and OTR.
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This thread has taught me one thing: some people won't be happy with Decisive Strike until it outright DCs the killer from the game. And then they would do exactly what you say with it.
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Cool. Then why is it every time I run into that exact scenario I don't spam my buttons and still get into those 50/50 scenarios with the pickup techs?
What happens in your games happens in your games, not mine. I would need your footage to try and answer that.
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DS now disables the killer's power for ~15 seconds upon successful usage, skill check made larger/easier for newer players.
Now DS is better against higher tier killers, not that much better against lower tiers, and prevents killer power from basically ignoring it.
I'd rather we get some form of basekit or freely available anti-tunnel but if all we get is a DS buff I guess I can't complain
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So, BT (as perk or base kit mechanic) had always been anti camping. As you said, it does nothing if you aren't back at the hook, and 10 seconds is no deterrent to tunneling.
BT does stack with DS, but the DS nerf was a direct buff to tunneling. So before the killer had to hit BT (as a perk) then eat DS. Not it's only BT and the replacement for DS (OTR) is also disabled in that one swing.
So going from 'i hit endurance, down, then deal with the anti tunnel perk' to 'hit endurance, down, then hook' is 100% cutting out the 'anti tunnel' part in it's entirely. That sounds like a pretty big buff to tunneling when all of that happened in one patch: 6.1.
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This is the mistake that everyone makes when they want to claim that tunnelling was buffed in 6.1 despite that not being true: They always assume that Borrowed Time (the perk) was actually in play when talking about the pre-6.1 examples.
It had a high pickrate, sure, but it wasn't that high. It wasn't on every survivor in every game, not even close. It's straight up disingenuous to use "hit BT, down, eat DS, down" as the example of tunnelling before, because that wasn't tunnelling before. It was "down, eat DS, down, hook", because DS was meaningfully in everyone's loadout and BT was not.
At worst, tunnelling was sidegraded because now you've swapped the one anti-tunnel source the killer would be dealing with for the other. More realistically, tunnelling was weakened, because the most egregious form of it is now completely impossible. There's something to be said about anti-tunnel being harder to stack now, and I agree that should be changed, but that doesn't translate to tunnelling having been buffed.
Also, BT is definitely anti-tunnel. It doesn't do anything to stop a killer from camping, but it does stop them from tunnelling the person you unhook, at least straight away. It's not a silver bullet that makes tunnelling completely impossible, but it is an anti-tunnel measure.
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To my experience, BT was pretty ubiquitous. And it can affect multiple survivors, even if only one person brought it. DS also bought more time than one hit does.
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The point is more that it was completely out of your control if you benefited from BT, and it wasn't guaranteed. That means you could very easily be downed as soon as your feet touched the floor. Now, that's impossible, and you don't need to rely on your teammate having decided to bring BT.
You shouldn't assume BT was in play when talking about pre-6.1, because that assumption wouldn't always bear out in a real match. The fact that now BT is always in play is part of how tunnelling was weakened in 6.1, both in the sense that you can use it to make distance and in the sense that it made the most aggressive and egregious form of tunnelling impossible.
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Conversely though, it's not really fair to assume the killer will always be there within ten seconds. Nor that they won't count out the basekit BT, either.
Whatever you want to make of it, 5 sec DS was doing a ton of heavy lifting to deter and weaken tunnelling, and that stopped with 6.1.
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If they're counting out the basekit BT or they're not there to begin with, you've got a reasonable amount of opportunity to make distance and reach a tile. It could be improved, but that is those tools working as intended.
The one thing I'll agree with you on here is that DS was a better deterrent, that I believe to be flat out true. Tunnelling didn't get stronger or worse in an impact sense, but it did get more frequent after 6.1, and that's more than enough reason to make more changes to address it. It's weaker, but not so much so that the increased frequency isn't annoying or damaging to the game's health.
Just to reiterate, I do support buffing the DS stun duration back to five seconds for this reason.
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"If they're counting out the basekit BT or they're not there to begin with, you've got a reasonable amount of opportunity to make distance and reach a tile. It could be improved, but that is those tools working as intended."
This only works if you're under a pallet at that point, and you're still getting tunnelled. DS getting cut in half was, IMO, a big buff to tunnelling.
DS should go back to five seconds, and IMO, OTR should become total info blackout: no sound, no aura, no screams, no blood trail, no scratch marks.
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That assumes that you're going down as soon as the timer is done, though. That can be the case, but you also could've just reached a loop that you're now playing and wasting the killer's time. Both of those are roughly equally likely, in my experience, so there's no reason to favour one over the other as the default assumption.
Of course you're still going to be tunnelled, though. The point of anti-tunnel is to waste the killer's time and make it not desirable, not to make tunnelling impossible. The idea of current anti-tunnel tools is that you reach a tile and play it, leading the killer to abandon chase because it's not worth it. More can and should be done for perks that you bring for anti-tunnel, but that is exactly how the basekit version of anti-tunnel should function, that part isn't a flaw.
As an aside, if you did all that to OTR, you'd need to have everything disable on Conspicuous Actions rather than just the Endurance, because 80 seconds of all that when you aren't being tunnelled would be way too much.
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Well, yes, all of that would disable on conspic action. But it'd be a higher risk/higher reward anti-tunnel.
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back to 5 sec stun and change skill check to be a ability press as a little qol for some console gamers. one of my friends has a hard time hitting it on switch.
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Before you ask me what about m1 killers, yes i know they are exists. But most of games i am seeing Chucky, Nurse, Xeno, Wesker, Blight etc. So anti-tunnel perks need to be balanced against popular and strong killer, not weak killers.
i have better one: the weak killers should be balanced to not be weak, and the ultra strong killers should be balanced to not be ultra strong, but well, they´ll change huntress for some reason
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On further thought, I had a new idea. Forget the Haste effect.
Instead, successfully using Decisive Strike removes Exhaustion. It would pair well with Sprint Burst and Lithe but Balanced Landing plays would also be viable depending on where you go down.
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Idealy they don't buff DS but if they do :
either :
Remove all tokens of power.
Buff it to 4 seconds.
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I don't like the idea of an exhaustion perk being near mandatory to pair with it, personally. It should just be good at its own niche. The price it exacts is high enough.
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On further thought, I would change DS to:
- Have up to two uses, one charge for each unhook.
- First hook charge stuns the killer for 4 seconds.
- Second hook charge stuns the killer for 6 seconds. (They know it's there now, it acts as a deterrent, and if they still want to commit to the tunnel they will face a longer stun, but that's the killers choice)
- Duration is reduced from 60 seconds to 30 seconds, but...
- The timer does not go down while in a chase.
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I would make stun last 4 seconds and the activation window to be 90 seconds instead of 60
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I mean this would just make them slug you and easily counter it.
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If they want to watch you on the floor for 30 seconds that's just more time for the others to do gens. It's making tunneling more costly.
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They don't need to watch you. When you are on ground they can patrol around because you won't pick up yourself immediately even if you have UB. When i slug someone, i am not waiting next to them. I am pressuring gens next to me.
So nah, your suggestion is actually makes DS very much counterable. DS should not have counter except not tunnelling.
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I would make it:
- 5sec stun.
- Survivor has no scratch mark for 5sec.
- A free Sprint burst
- Killer has Incapacitate status for 5sec (cant M2)
- Disable with Conspicuous Action
- Disable if healed
- Disable in End game.
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It's not any more counterable than it is currently. Start the timer at unhook and don't pick up until it hits 60. If the chase takes 45 seconds, you've only 15 left to wait. With @Seraphor 's suggestion, it could be up to 30 seconds.
I do think it could use a little extra lenience, like maybe bumping it up to 40, or get real messy and make it a randomly chosen number between 35-45 so the killer really doesn't have a clue, but I think Seraphor's suggestions are pretty solid.
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This leaves it open to the old abuse and is a hefty punishment for killers who do play fair. The whole reason it was nerfed in the first place.
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How?
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Ds user gets unhooked and immediately body blocks for their unhooker (in swf they can do this for anyone the killer chases). The killer either hits the ds so they can path normally, which extends the chase and punishes the killer, or the killer eats the ds and loses both chases at the same time. This is exactly how old ds was used
If you want to cut down on tunneling, buff gameplay that isn't tunneling. Buff thanatophobia, bbq, and survivor healing perks
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The 'old abuse' was annihilated with the conspicuous actions and disabling in end game changes, which are still restrictions C3 listed and kept, rightfully so.
At this point I feel like 'abuse' is just 'having the perk actually do anything about tunneling whatsoever'.
There's certainly been a huge push by people on the forums since 6.1 to delete literally anything that requires killers to think or consider anything other than 'chase exactly one survivor until they're dead'. That includes 'is there a perk that might make tunneling less effective', because at this point there isn't one that exists.
And I use the term 'chase' loosely here, since most of these complaints are simply 'follow the survivor' without attempting to mind game at any point.
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I hit basekit BT and let them flee all the time, not a big deal for me. Free 8sec mending for me. If they take double hit, free 30sec slugging. I never be close to a hook to expect a free hook trade.
Tunneling is never be cut down without nerfing it to death. Tunneling is the strongest tool that being free for killer, making basekit strong as 90% as tunneling still make killer tunnel. As long as tunneling is stronger. No base mechanic can ever encourage not to tunnel.
Old Eruption era was the proof.
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i wouldnt. this entire roadmap is just killer nerfs
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Which conspicuous action did I describe? Because this was how the perk was used. This scenario is exactly why it was nerfed
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Basekit ds as described doesn't include a mending stage, and is 1 full min of a free healthstate. You're comparing two unlike things
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So what are you talking about then? Because if a survivor tries to bodyblock with it, guess what, they're going to be out on the floor for a very long time, giving you a ton of free pressure.
Also, no, that's not why it was nerfed.
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They're only going to be on the floor if you camp them. Don't forget this is the era where killers see 3gen pops in the first hook. At this point survivors only need 2 more, and have 1 guy in chase, 1 guy downed, 1 guy ready to heal the downed guy and 1 guy on gens. The ds user will have easily bought them 50% of the last two remaining gens at zero cost.
This style of gameplay was why it was gutted. Same with instant blind flashlights. Why do you think it was nerfed?
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"At this point survivors only need 2 more, and have 1 guy in chase, 1 guy downed, 1 guy ready to heal the downed guy and 1 guy on gens."
As opposed to without DS, where there's three guys on gens. One hit doesn't buy enough time to compensate for that.
"Why do you think it was nerfed?"
According to them, it was because DS was originally 3 seconds and got buffed because Enduring affected it, which was since removed.
Everyone else knew it was because it was a high pickrate perk and BHVR wanted a meta shake-up.
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Perk remains at one time use and 3 second stun but if you hit the skill check the stun becomes 5 seconds and you leave no scratchmarks or pools of blood for those 5 seconds.
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First of all, go back up to a 5 seconds stun. 3 seconds, unless a god window/pallet is right there, is not enough (not to mention the Survivor loses around 1 second from the animation of getting off the Killer's shoulder, making around 2 seconds of distance instead of the advertised 3).
Second, the perk deactivating in endgame is perfect and should stay that way, honestly if BHVR had just done that then most of DS threads probably wouldn't exist.
Third, people might say "But what about Nurse, Blight or some other Killers with the mean to either catch up instantly or down the Survivor with a ranged attack almost immediately? Wouldn't that make it useless?" and they would be right. Which is why the Killer's power, upon a successful DS, should be unusable for 5 seconds after the stun has ended (this would prevent the perk from being exclusively good against M1 Killers and would counter tunnelling across the board instead of yet again being another thing circumvented by Nurse and Blight) this would grant some distance to reach a pallet/window even against the strongest Killers.
With the new "Anti-3-gen" system and the utter gutting of STBFL, tunnelling and camping will be even worse until either adjustments are made (anti-3-gen only activates during the last gen but only has 5-6 regression events and STBFL nerf reverted and instead deactivates near hooked Survivors and doesn't trigger on basekit BT hits, much better and healthier for perk variety and Killer viability outside of bottom mmr) or a solid counter is brought on the table. As of now there is none and the near-future is filled with weaker Killers using STBFL to camp and aggressively tunnel (as the perk will only shine in camping/tunnelling after the change) and stronger Killers not bothering with a perk they didn't need anyway and replacing regression with gen-block.
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Hey dude. The pick rate was high because survivors used it offensively. To bodyblock and tank hits for free
You're forgetting the part where the killer played the way survivors want, and was punished for it. Any buff to ds will result in it being used this way again
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5 seconds stun again. Maybe instead of it turning off when the last gen is powered up make it turn off when end game collapse starts.
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No, it wasn't. It was this high because it was a strong deterrent to tunnelling, making it almost integral to the game's health.
Again, if people try to use it offensively, all you have to do to win is -not- press space bar on them. You've just been given tons of free pressure by getting a free down, which another survivor will have to fix, while still in chase with another survivor.
(Also, the DS baiter has not contributed anything to their team from the moment they were unhooked to the point where they went down. More free slowdown.)
Some survivors tried to use it offensively, in the hopes that some newbie killer would fall for it, but the vast majority brought it in because they wanted to make sure that if the killer starts tunnelling, they're going to have a rough time.
This 'offensive use' story didn't crop up until people started asking for DS to go back to five seconds. No one complained about it back when it actually was five seconds.
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That's not even close to the old abuse. DS isn't even doing anything in this scenario that the survivor wouldn't be getting from just having basekit BT to begin with; they tank one hit and run away, or tank two hits and get slugged. DS isn't affecting that in any way in your example, so how is this even abuse to begin with, let alone the old abuse DS used to enable?
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