How you would change Decisive Strike?
Comments
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Get rid of the skill check and have it work automatically. That way it's new player friendly.
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Yeah, DS needs more than 5 seconds. That’s definitely not gonna stop a tunneler—especially if they’ve zoned a survivor to the increasing number of map dead zones we’re seeing.
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If you choose to tunnel a survivor, you don't get to circumvent it. If they take that hit for the other survivor, that's a wasted heal, or they go down. Either way, they're wasting their team's time more than yours.
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I would remove that conspicuous action deactivate the perk and make that killers can‘t use their power for 5s after the stun.
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I'm more trying to be realistic. I honestly doubt that even getting 5 seconds back is a huge stretch.
Asking or expecting things like disabling killer power for a few seconds, or even working after both hook stages is asking too much. After a year and a half of doing nothing but buffing tunneling, I honestly don't think BHVR cares about anything other than the killer being in chase all game. If the killer chooses to chase the same survivor, that seems to be 100% acceptable gameplay. And I can't really blame them, when it's hard enough to get killers to stop camping hooks or gens.
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A few small changes.
Stun timer back up to five seconds. This one's a gimme, it's pretty obviously necessary to make the perk actually do its job reliably. Sure, right now you can use current DS as effective anti-tunnel if you're skilled and get downed in a good area... but the perk should work for all players all of the time, not just for skilled players some of the time.
Make the skill check bigger. I would honestly suggest removing it altogether, but I suppose there might be some niche scenarios where you want the choice of whether to activate it, so... make it the same as the beginning of the second-hook-stage skill checks. See above, the perk should not only be usable if you can reliably hit small skill checks.
Lastly, not exactly a DS-specific change, but add saves to the list of Conspicuous Actions. By and large it's not actually possible to reliably weaponise DS anymore, not without throwing, but I do think it's a little silly that you can potentially go chase + down someone else and still might eat a DS because you down the person that got a flashlight/pallet save. Small change, won't matter most of the time, just a nice safeguard.
I'm wary of making DS too good, not because I'm sympathetic to the plight of tunnelling killers but because I don't think tunnelling should be "fixed" with a single, paid-DLC perk. More should be done alongside buffing DS, in my opinion.
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When did they buff tunnelling?
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remove skillcheck
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They buff tunneling with every map change. With the low amount of pallets and the deadzones (hook them in a deadzone) created with just droping a single pallet, tunneling is obviously hard to deal with.
On top of that, tunneling became more effective with the +10 seconds on extra repair time on generators. In the past, proxycamping and tunneling was not fast enough because of that, now you can create a 3v1 at even 2 gens left (which is basically a automatic win).
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What xEa said, plus the nerf to DS in 6.1, and making it so that endurance doesn't stack. So base kit BT (a camping deterrent) can trigger deep wounds, which now disables both OTR and Dead Hard. And those are literally all of the anti tunneling perks you can bring at this point.
The only hope you have is a teammate stepping in to help you, and even BU+FtP is on the chopping block according to the road map.
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I mean, even taking into account that the base kit BT doesn't stack with OTR, that's... still a nerf to tunnelling. Hitting someone twice before they're downed is still a nerf from before, where you would hit them once as soon as their feet touch the ground and they're down immediately unless their teammate brought BT.
I'm not saying tunnelling is in a good spot, obviously, but it also pretty unambiguously got weaker from 6.1.0. onwards. I've advocated before that the basekit anti-tunnel shouldn't trigger Deep Wounds so it can be paired with anti-tunnel perks like OTR and BT (and even perks that aren't anti-tunnel like Dead Hard), but the addition of basekit anti-tunnel definitely does not count as a tunnelling buff just because it stacks poorly with perks.
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1) Implement AI to determine if a survivor is trying to bodyblock, and if they are, then disable DS
2) If a survivor gets healed a full health state, disable DS
3) If a survivor enters a locker, disable DS
4) DS can’t be used if exhausted
5) DS causes exhaustion
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5 seconds and becomes inactive once the gates are powered. Nice and simple.
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I feel it should be either make the DS user totally escape the chase, by a Sprint burst with no scratch mark after DS. Or killer unable to use M2 for a whie. I prefer the 2nd idea, since that would put all killers in line (that Blight cant instantly rush after the stun, which affect him more than Trapper).
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Yes, and make it take up 2 perk slots.
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Imaging Pain Res works like this
- If a just unhooked survivor has chase staus, disable the perk.
- Disable the perk if another regression perk in play.
- A survivor gets to 2nd hook stage, disable the perk.
- Kick a Gen disable the perk
- If Pain Res activated, disable ability to kick Gen
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I never trigger it so idc. Two charges would help though
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If you want to bring it back to a 5 second stun i would change the effect to the following:
- Remove the skill check requirement, have it just work
- Stun buffed back up to 5 seconds.
- During the stun the survivor gets a 200% movement speed bonus. (5 sec background player)
- During the stun the survivor leaves no scratch marks and makes no noise.
- Remove the 60 second timer, it can be used anytime after being unhooked
- Add the following:
- While DS is active, the survivors items are disabled.
- Add entering a locker as a deactivation condition,
- Add getting healed to the healthy state as a deactivation condition.
- Add taking a protection hit as a deactivation condition (no more body blocking)
- Add saving a survivor with a pallet stun as a deactivation condition
- Add picking yourself up from the ground (unbreakable etc.) as a deactivation condition
- If the perk deactivates by any means other than being healed to a healthy state, the perk deactivates for the rest of the game. Specifically for the rest of the game. If healed to a healthy state, it will work a second time.
This basically makes it completely impossible to use offensively, you can't body block other people, you can't flashlight save, you can't pallet stun and you can't immediately hop back on a gen or heal someone else (if so you clearly aren't being tunneled) otherwise the perk is gone for the rest of the game.
On the flip side, against actual tunneling it is much stronger. You don't have to hit a skill check, and the 5 second stun coupled with the 5 second haste means you can travel a full 40 meters before the killer is even done being stunned. Additionally you are able to hide from the killer because you make no noise, the killer is stunned and looking at the ground so they don't know where you went. There is no more timer meaning that no more 61 second DS pickups. Effectively making it the perfect anti-tunnel perk.
HOWEVER:
I still don't think this is what they should do, they should probably just rework the perk entirely and add a new basekit mechanic for tunneling, and my suggestion has always been to do the following:
- Remove the stupid AFC mechanic, its dumb and confusing and doesn't work.
- Remove the basekit BT
- Make kindred basekit
- Make it so if a killer stays near a hook for more than 10 seconds (with a 10 second grace period right after hooking) that the survivor is automatically teleported to: The closest hook to the furthest survivor from the killer.
- Add a new mechanic called Ethereal that survivors get after being unhooked. Ethereal lasts for 30 seconds.
- Ethereal:
- While a survivor is Ethereal they gain the following:
- They are able to see the aura of all other survivors
- They are completely invisible to the killer
- They make no footstep noise or grunts of pain
- They leave no scratch marks
- They make no collision to survivors or killers.
- They move at 150% movement speed
- Other survivors are able to see their aura.
- They are unable to perform any conspicuous action other than unhooking another survivor.
- They are unable to use items (no flashlight)
- When ethereal expires (not deactivated from unhook) the survivor is healed to the healthy state.
- While a survivor is Ethereal they gain the following:
Basically, this new effect gives the survivor spirits power from the killer POV with added aura reading. The point is two-fold. Tunneling is now literally impossible, because they cannot even be seen, heard, or collided with after being unhooked. Camping is now literally impossible because if the killer does, they are teleported to the closest hook to the survivor that is furthest from the killer. This means that by the time the killer can walk over to the hook they teleported to, the other survivor should have saved them, giving them the ethereal effect. After the effect ends, the survivor is automatically fully healed and they are able to get back into the game, away from the killer, fully healed and ready for another chase.
On the flip side of it, a killer now knows that after a survivor has been unhooked, they will be put on a "timeout" for 30 seconds, and it is 1 less survivor GUARANTEED to be off a gen for 30 seconds and not making any progress.
They could also start adding perks that change this mechanic in some way. Perhaps a new exhaustion perk that makes this effect last longer (like 45 seconds or even 60 seconds) meaning even more time off gens. But gives some kind of buff after the effect is over, maybe like a boost to gen repair speeds or something.
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I don't get why this matters. If your chasing survivor A and survivor B bodyblock's you. you hit them and chase survivor A. The combo effects killer that hit BT and specifically tunnel/chase survivors post hit.
they'd need to change something about skull merchant, deathslinger and legion as those killer would be unplayable. Maybe it would be something like those killer apply mangled+hemorrhage on their ability to simulate their lore of applying stronger wounds instead of deep wound. Overall, you'll see less killer tunnel survivors off hook. if they do tunnel, have fun chasing those speedy survivors.
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I think they should completely rework the perk but still maintaining the idea of the survivors having the ability to fight directly the killer somewhat like what they can do against Xenomorph with turrets or like twins with kicking victor.
Something that gives the idea that survivors arent just pieces of meat getting hunted but capable of opposing to the killer.
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Should be upped to 4 seconds, 3 seconds is basically non existent and more like two seconds because of the drop animation. Should be available during endgame, because Off the Record can, why not DS? But keep conspicuous action nerf to avoid the ancient evil of DS + UB. And boom, well balanced I’d say.
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Disable the killer's power for 10 seconds after using it so it can affect all killers "equally" instead of barely doing anything against strong killers, but hard punishing the weaker M1s.
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I would do a small rework to it. It starts off with a 6.5 second stun and reduces 1 second from the stun for every gen that pops. It would really make killers think twice about tunneling early on but still keep it weak during the late game because I do realize during that point tunneling becomes necessary.
So.... 5 gens=6.5sec stun, 4 gens=5.5sec stun, 3 gens=4.5sec stun, 2 gens=3.5sec stun, 1 gen=2.5sec stun EDG=disabled
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The thing is, there's no punishment for it.
The 3 seconds is a slap on the wrist and 4-5 seconds won't change that at all. The scratch marks are still there and its almost like you never even lost the chase with them in the first place. It either needs to be a substantial increase like 7+ seconds or there needs to be huge penalties to the killer for tunneling someone whose running DS. Hindered, incap & BP penalties. People tunnel b/c making it a 1v3 as soon as possible helps out a ton. Gotta start giving out actual in-match penalties that make it more difficult to win for killer, not easier.
- 7 second stun minimum. Absolutely no less. 3 seconds is a joke & 5 seconds did very little before as well
- Effects like Hindered, Incap & BP penalties that are severe enough for the killer
- Efffects like Haste, no scratchmarks or blood, no grunts, etc that give the survivor an actual chance of getting away
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Off the Record disables in endgame too.
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Make it the way it was before just if you do a Gen or heal etc then it deactivates untill your next hook
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'Anti-tunnel is fine, so long as it doesn't interfere with my tunnelling'
Seriously, why is 'make it an exhaustion perk' on the list? Why are lockers on the list? A survivor runs away with sprint burst, therefor it's not tunnelling? A survivor jumps in a locker so you can't just slug them out and so you get a green light on tunnelling?
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I have no idea how I never realized this, I confused this with the endurance you get.
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I don't think freezing the killer's power is the way to go. You'll essentially be tailoring the perk around the top 3 or so strongest killers while completely hindering the rest of the killer roster that are not as strong.
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The only change Decisive Strike needed was making it work before you were hooked. The "dribbling" was awful for all involved, including the killer.
Anyway, it needs to go back to 5 seconds and it needs to either work during the endgame OR remove the "conspicuous" action and keep the endgame disabling intact.
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To be fair, it's only hindering them IF they tunnel, which is how this perk is supposed to work to begin with. That's not a huge downside.
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Add more nuance to the deactivation condition and move it back to 5 seconds.
It currently deactivates if your character feels a slight breeze, but it's not always readily apparent whether a killer is tunneling or not. This kind of goes back to trial pacing, which I harp on a lot. It currently puts you in an awkward position where you stand and do nothing for a bit because any minor thing you do deactivates DS.
There are lots of reasons you can't or shouldn't heal, but that doesn't mean DS should instantly deactivate once you do anything. If you progress a gen by 5% or complete one, sure. If you actually finish cleansing a totem or complete a heal, sure. Deactivate it once all gens are done too. But don't deactivate it on a gen tap against a high mobility or stealth killer.
There is currently nothing meaningful to prevent a good killer player from tunneling someone out early.
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I feel like a ton of survivors need to be reminded of why Decisive was nerfed in the first place: Killers who didn't tunnel.
You'd get survivor SWF who would take bodyblocks for their team after an unhook and try to get you to pick them up, or get their team to do a pickup tech when you try to break a pallet/grab another survivor from a locker, get stunned for 5 seconds, rinse and repeat for trying to SPREAD hooks. It also basically gave survivors a free escape at endgame, which was another big reason for the nerf.
Anyone asking for 5 or more seconds, endgame availability, and no downside at all are just asking to abuse it again.
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That stopped being meaningfully possible (without throwing, at least) when the Conspicuous Actions nerf happened, though. There was a period of time where we had that deactivation requirement and a five second stun, and during that time, the perk was basically the healthiest it's ever been.
(During that time it did stay active in the endgame, though, which wasn't ideal. I'm not suggesting we bring that back.)
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Survivors to this day still try to take the bodyblock trap using current DS, regardless of the conspicuous action.
But forget that for a second, I say the prior to those who want conspicuous gone, 5 seconds+ stuns, active in endgame and other really broken things without addressing the killers who aren't interested in tunneling and will eventually get the raw end of whatever buff.
Then the next issue will arise, just slugging everyone just in case. And then, the return of the no mither/decisive/map offering builds to get to places where you can't hook, slug, pick up or do much without a SWF group punishing any choice you make. I guarantee if proper changes aren't in place for a DS buff, we'll see it added to the current SWF builds already still being used to deny the killer any choice to play the match normally.
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I disagree with that.
Bodyblocking can be annoying, but there are ways around it, there always have been. And that "pickup tech" doesn't even work.
The perk is no longer active at the end game and I don't think this will change. But it needs 5 seconds back because right now there is nothing to stop tunneling. It has to be done.
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I haven't seen too many people asking for the Conspicuous Actions change to be reverted, I'd agree with you that it'd be a bad idea to do that.
Most people just want the five second stun back from what I've seen, and that won't lead to people being able to weaponise it. It's currently not possible to use DS aggressively unless the killer takes the bait, and even in most of the cases where they do make that easily avoidable mistake, you've still thrown the match getting them to do it.
No extra changes would be needed if all they do is raise the stun time again. Anything else, sure, there might be some issues, but the stun being raised to where it was before will just mean the perk is partially back to its healthiest state. Hell, even raising the stun time further wouldn't be an issue in that regard, but I do think it wouldn't be necessary to go further than five seconds.
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This.
Well said, my friend.
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I've been on the receiving end of the pickup tech many times, if they vault or exit a locker as soon as you try to open it and the game decides you pick up instead. All it takes is telling your SWF buddies to go down near one and baiting the killer into it.
And really there isn't much choice if you're bodyblocked aside Sadako's demanifest or well timed shots with an M2 killer. Most survivors will block doorways until they get hit and they absolutely will waste every second of their perks to do it. Then killer has to decide if it's faster to try and hook who bodyblocked or go for their teammate, risking the downed survivor having perks to pick themselves up. Meanwhile, their teammates are doing gens and will pop those before grabbing their friend if you keep going with your original chase. A lot of your options are a lose/lose scenario if you choose to not tunnel in these circumstances and buffing DS to have no downsides to using it as a weapon and not as a defensive tool will only amplify that.
I've seen a few in this discussion alone ask for that, a few others on other platforms as well.
And I'd be fine with 5 seconds max, personally I'd prefer 4 seconds and no drop delay after getting a hit so you can use the full 4 seconds, as long as the perk can't be weaponized like it used to be. My main point comes from reading a few of the suggestions I've seen floating around that it needs to be EXTREMELY buffed to compensate tunneling because of tunneling itself with no thought towards normal gameplay.
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If you're really going to try and make it the anti-tunnel perk, I'd do it something like this:
45-60 second duration
5-7 second stun
7 seconds of no collision with killer
30 seconds of endurance
150% haste with no scratch marks/blood pools for 5 seconds
Deactivates when performing any action besides self healing. If you perform any other action in that time, you're exposed, scream and reveal your location. You can run, hide, be healed and/or heal yourself for its duration, but nothing else, or the perk turns on you.
Obviously, that's a lot of moving parts for one perk. Too many. But it doesn't have to be all that, just something like it. The takeaway is the perk should really, really effective at helping you escape a directed tunnel, but ONLY that.
If the above doesn't stop a killer from tunneling someone, nothing will. And for some killer players, it won't, even at the cost of throwing the game. But if you're going to try to rework the perk and frame it as the premier pure anti-tunnel measure, don't half measure it, do it.
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And then, the return of the no mither/decisive/map offering builds to get to places where you can't hook, slug, pick up or do much without a SWF group punishing any choice you make.
I am pretty sure that No Mither has never, ever been a build.
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It’s funny because nobody talks about counterplay. You all want this perk back in the meta by buffing it to narnia but you don’t think for a second about how the killer could avoid it while getting value.
Because right now, going for 12 hooks doesn’t give you any value. At least back in the day you had BBQ for the extra BP but that’s gone.
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It has, it's just the much less powerful version of the unhookable builds.
I don't see it often, but I do see it. People use No Mither for unhookable builds if they're under the impression unhookable builds are silly memes, from what I can gather.
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The counterplay is to not tunnel.
You don't need to tunnel to win, spreading pressure is already comparably strong. Tunnelling is just easier.
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Explain to me in details how going for 12 hooks is a « strong » strategy ?
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I'm not saying it is, I'm saying spreading your pressure is a strong strategy.
People progress hook states all the time, especially if they're sacrificed in the endgame or you get a snowball. Going for 12 hook states is not the only alternative to tunnelling.
But, to be more precise... If everyone is alive, and by default (so not factoring in perks or powers yet), the best scenario you can be in is the following: One survivor on the hook, one survivor in chase, one survivor peeling off to get the save. If you're good in chase and you have good macro strategy, you can pretty reliably keep this going just by default; add in time spent healing, or any perks + powers they might have to deal with (IE, finding + cleansing Devour Hope or running between Jigsaw Boxes), and your basekit pressure is pretty considerable.
Tunnelling is, when it works, easier. It's not at all required.
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OK then let’s say 10 hooks because the last 2 survivors may be sacrificed with hooks stage remaing, but not less because you would be somehow tunneling depending of definitions.
Also, if by snowball you mean slugging know that it is considered a very unfun, toxic and unfair strategy by a lot of survivors.
So now, explain to me how a Pig player can win going for at least 10 hooks versus a SWF with solid looping / gens repair skills.
Also, that Pig player is unfortunately short on money IRL and kinda new to the game so she doesn’t own any DLC (no pop, pain res, deadlock, corrupt…), only being able to use free perks.
Thanks.
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That doesn't work if you don't spam it. If there is a downed survivor standing close to anything you have to take your time, make sure you know which interaction will happen before you do it.
As for bodyblocking, you can go around them. If there is no way to go around you hit, depending on how long it took there is no more basekit BT to help. If they don't have Unbreakable they now need help to get up, the other two survivors can be those SoloQ teammates that will take time to help.
Meanwhile you are putting the pressure on someone else, that can be a Thanatophobia stack taking effect during that time or a Pain Res after a short chase. There are countless scenarios where bodyblocking fails. Sometimes they don't even try to do it.
I asked several times for BBQ to be reverted, so I'm good.
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I don't mean slugging specifically, I mean snowballing. Sometimes that happens via light slugging, sometimes it happens because you intercept someone going for a hook save, etcetera. I also don't see how it's relevant that some players dislike slugging considering we aren't talking about what tactics are enjoyable, just whether tunnelling is necessary.
I've also already explained it...? Your goal is to occupy as many survivors at once as you can. Pig's actually pretty good at doing this once she's gotten the pressure started, because on top of what we've already laid out - one on hook, one in chase, one going for the save - that last survivor might not even be on generators if they have to run between Jigsaw boxes.
Doing this successfully is as potent as tunnelling, though you may have to change how you approach a trial. Hypothetically, you wouldn't be wanting to run four slowdown perks - that's not even a good build if you are tunnelling, honestly. You'd want to bring a good blend of chase, info, slowdown, and other forms of utility, or just a build where the perks synergise with each other.
Even your restrictive hypothetical doesn't really change any of this...? Only being able to use free perks is pretty rough, but it's not as though you need those fancy meta perks you're referring to. This hypothetical Pig might have a harder time than someone playing a better killer with better perks (albeit not necessarily slowdown), but it's hardly impossible and they hardly need to tunnel.
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This is a bandaid fix that will just lead to killers slugging the timer out. The solution is across the board buffs to useless perks on both sides. Make the killer mod choice feel impactful, and to keep it from things getting worse buff useless survivor perks
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