Penalty for killers who don't pick up anyone when everyone is down
There should be some sort of penalty for killers who refuse to pick up any survivors when EVERYONE is down. Just makes the game long for no reason.
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You have a bleedout timer for that.
If you believe the game is over for you, alt tab your game and do something else. It will be over by the time you come back.
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that is his complaint. he is saying it takes too long to die. the game lacks some sort of EGC type timer that ticks when all survivors are in the dying state. something like 35 second timer would speed up that boring end game part. they once had ptb that made it go instant death but it was a bit too aggressive of a change. it was a decent idea. Just needed a little bit refinement.
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If you do penalty for this, can we make penalty for survivors that wait until the end of the timer on the exits when there's nobody in danger? Or maybe even better; permit the killer to give up once the doors are open.
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I think everyone who wants games that take a little longer and don't want to end so fast, especially in the early game can agree in some regard to what bHVR showed us with that Mori/ unbreakable basekit update they had. I would modify the rules slightly, like so:
- The Survivor is able to get back up after like X seconds if they have not been hooked.
- The Survivor is able to get back up after longer than X seconds, if they have been hooked once.
- The Survivor is no longer unable to get back up when they have been hooked twice, unless they have perks for it.
This would make slugging early game way harder and ensure that people can play the rest of game better, while keeping the stress at the end.
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I understand but any other alternative would likely be abused. If it's a ''manual death'' then pissed off survivors will suicide on first down. If it is ability to stand up on own, then it will be difficult to balance and will lead to many other problems.
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Only if it kicks in if all 4 are down. I've seen way too many bully squads who are allergic to not going down at pallets with everyone running power struggle. Literally cannot pick them up without getting stunned. I could at least immediately pick up the last person without risking another survivor running up to pallet stun.
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Why only when all 4 are down? Lets say its 1 minute, it is so bad if Killers slug for a min a lose out on their bounty? I dont think so.
I don't think power struggle is uses as much as that globally. idk if its really a problem.
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Sounds like basekit unbreakable with extra steps...
This also doesn't make sense, when killers don't even see number of hooks for each survivor.
This is another change how to simply create more tunneling, when you nerf everything else.
Camping? Nope
3-gen? Nope
Hit&run? Sloppy butcher nerf coming
Let's nerf slugging too, what could go wrong about that.
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Bully squads are more prominent at the higher mmrs, as they fall apart if they don't know what they're doing. All 4 down because the match is practically over at that point unless they get a second chance. Anything before 4, the match is still in play - plenty of natural ways to recover from it. Frankly, though, if the survivors all get downed, they failed miserably. They shouldn't get a freebie mistake eraser. I'd rather the match just end unless someone on their team has some sort of recovery perk.
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There is a penalty, they don't get credit for kills if a survivor bleeds out. The players who bleed out survivors repeatedly should be banned for refusing to participate in normal gameplay.
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Sounds like basekit unbreakable with extra steps...
This also doesn't make sense, when killers don't even see number of hooks for each survivor.
Correct, but you explain why it doesn't make sense. Why would the Killer need to see who they can or cant let be on the ground?
Let's nerf slugging too, what could go wrong about that.
Its only slugging early game that is gonna be hard, what would be so terrible about that?
Sure high mmr players need to be kept under control, but I don't see why we cant address that issue when we made sure the lower ranks can keep up and a fair and tolerable experience is ensured? Im not asking to ignore the top 5% but I dont feel like they should get special privilege in balancing and gameplay tolerance when discussing new changes. Right=?
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I didn't say highest mmr. Just saying high mmr which isn't that hard to get to.
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Its only slugging early game that is gonna be hard, what would be so terrible about that?
It's not just an early game, when killer doesn't know if they can, or can't slug them. That just means they never can.
Also why the hell would you slug, when you can kill the survivor? That's another reason why it doesn't make sense.
Slugging is to increase pressure. This feature would make it unreliable and simply ineffective.
So why bother trying to slug (except few killers without a choice) and just tunnel someone out?
All those nerfs to everything else make tunneling better, then you see survivors crying more and more about tunneling. Who would have thought?
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It's not just an early game, when killer doesn't know if they can, or can't slug them. That just means they never can. Also why the hell would you slug, when you can kill the survivor? That's another reason why it doesn't make sense.
Hey so I asked in the first comment to you, "Why would the Killer need to see who they can or cant let be on the ground?" idd like an specific answer to that, cause I don't think the Killer needs to, much like how the Killer don't need to know who dies on next hook or not. Don't really see why the Killer needs absolute certainty of their options. That just seem strange to me, so I'm eager to hear why you think that is a must.
Instead you can rely on that the Survivor will be able to get up in X time or longer if they been hooked. You take the gamble.
Slugging is to increase pressure. This feature would make it unreliable and simply ineffective. So why bother trying to slug (except few killers without a choice) and just tunnel someone out?
Sure and with those rules you should be able to do it aswell, until the X timer is met. So it will be easier and easier to get that pressure late game while, but those rules will keep that pressure generating lower in the beginning. I think that is acceptable terms. Do you disagree?
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So it will be easier and easier to get that pressure late game while, but those rules will keep that pressure generating lower in the beginning
That just means it is worse than tunneling at every stage. Why would anyone bother?
Why would the Killer need to see who they can or cant let be on the ground?
If you want to make mechanic as a variable (time changes, or disables), then if you are not able to tell correct what is the status, it's stupid to go for the gamble. Risk and Reward are nowhere near same at this point. Only right option would be to hook them, which makes it kinda boring to me at least.
Also it doesn't work only when the survivor is dead on hook. Why would I ever slug them? This mechanic means slugging is never an option. It's not gamble at all. It's just not a valid option.
Chase someone, down them, hook them. If that's all you are going to do and try it for different survivors, you are going to lose quite often. Only way how to win doing this, is to tunnel someone out of the game.
Slugging let's me to just down unhooked person and chase someone else. This way I still get pressure, but I am not really forced to tunnel. Your feature would give him unbreakable for free, so I can't leave him on ground, because noone is required to pick him up from ground, which lowers the pressure. So best and only option is to hook them again...
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That just means it is worse than tunneling at every stage. Why would anyone bother?
To down maybe one more or add more pressure, you told me a second ago. You wanna explain to me why you shift from its a possibility to "oh no why even bother" just because I mention a timer. That's pretty unreasonable of you, I have not even given a timer yet and you are locking down on it. The flip is pretty blatant.
I think you are just rejecting the idea cause you don't want any timer ever on slugging, even in early game, that is fine Im not here to make you like that idea. I'm only here to hear out arguments against it.
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you don't want any timer ever on slugging, even in early game
Oh no, what a Sherlock we have here. Maybe because I don't think it's good idea from start? It is going to remove an option from killer, which makes this game more boring in my opinion and alternative left is not going to be good for survivors.
You wanna explain to me why you shift from its a possibility to "oh no why even bother" just because I mention a timer.
How is that difficult to understand? It gives pressure when there is another survivor forced to pick them up. If they can pick themselves, it doesn't work. That's why Unbreakable is pretty good perk...
I have not even given a timer yet
Ok, let's make it 241 seconds and I am fine with it...
even in early game
It's not really an early game, when it is connected to hooks. Not time, not gens. Hook stages. Survivors can quite easily get to 1-2 gens left with survivors never being hooked. One bad chase is enough for that.
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Here alternative when you want it for early game, so you don't say I am unreasonable.
Survivors can pick themselves up after 30 seconds on ground when there is 5 gens left, 45 seconds when there is 4 gens left, 60 seconds when there are 3 gens left. They can't do it when there are 2 or less gens left.
Then killer can clearly tell for how long it is possible to slug them and can try to play around it, but it is not possible to slug all 4 survivors.
This is how you make it actually an early game feature.
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Oh no, what a Sherlock we have here.
I big Brain.
See that is fine
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As an exclusive slugging Bubba I condone this message.
Just make wiggle phase not do as much so I can hook.
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So, are you proposing an auto-regression mechanic if there's no continual progress on gens for more than a few seconds?
If not, then bully squads or just coordinated teams are gonna have a field day with 3 gens at 99% progress being able to stand up lol
Should I mention getting downed at pallets so there's only 2 options left? You either slug or get stunned with no chance of hooking
Also, nice try, you boil over + flip flop + unbreakable + tenacity/power struggle survivor main on eyrie :)
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So, are you proposing an auto-regression mechanic if there's no continual progress on gens for more than a few seconds?
No, thats not the idea, scroll up if you wish to read what the actual idea was.
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LOL
Can't you see the potential of being abused by experienced swf's? To be fair, I'm sure you don't, based on your posts above
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Oh you are trying to "run with the argument" by applying it to generators. Yet you seem to completely miss the objective of the idea, to address the premises of the logic. By taking a different set of premises and asking me if I would support it because its a similar reasoning.
Indeed, getting slugged all game and having a generator regress are not comparable at all.
Post edited by EQWashu on0 -
That is straight up nonsense. You support a mechanic that can be abused hard and the devs will have to do something to somewhat counterbalance its abuse potential. I suggested the most straightforward way to do so, yet it looks like you only support the "gimme all the benefits, idc about everything else" point of view, which totally works in single player games. Dbd is not one of them lol
getting slugged all game
Just be honest. How often do you have killers slug you for long for no reason? Having another survivor run around if you're at a pallet or if they're holding or might be holding blinding items don't fall under the "for no reason" part. You jumping right into the killer's face a few seconds after getting unhooked doesn't. You crawling away or the killer engaging in another chase and forgetting where you are don't either. These examples do not sum up all of the reasons slugging can be less unreasonable. It's been months since I've seen unreasonable slugging. It's either you play a different game (what the hell are you doing here, then?), or your server might be overly toxic
Indeed, getting slugged all game and having a generator regress are not comparable at all
Where. The. Hell. Did. That. Come. From? How does it even connect to anything?
Post edited by EQWashu on1 -
My take on all this...
First Situation:
All survivors are down
Timer gets activated
After said timer, 1 random survivor gets to get up.
Second Situation:
If someone gets hooked for the first time (doesn't matter how many survivor gets hooked, as long as it's their first hook)
If they reach second hook stage, and killer doesn't pick up anyone on the ground, 1 random survivor gets to get up.
At least with this implemented, the Killer will either proceed to hook the survs on the ground or he can facecamp/slug them, but know one person can get up. At least he can't hold the game hostage.
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Could even argue you could pick yourself up when outside the killer's TR (or 32 meters in general) to combat any survivor crowding.
That way if everyone goes down near the killer, they have to crawl outside the TR and recover. Theoretically, the time it takes to crawl away and pick yourself up this way would be enough time for the killer to secure a hook or two and if the killer tries to go across the map for other slugs, the prior survivors can pick themselves up.
That said, I'd need to think more on how this could be abused, especially by SWF. Possibly that they can say "the killer is near me" when they can't pick themselves up.
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Give up button for both killer and survivor 😀.
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How about survivors just start bleeding out faster and faster if theyre all down and have no means to pick themselves up?
Alternatively, just entity-sacrifice them and end the game.
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It should most definitely be considered griefing.
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Yeah like how if everyone is on hook the game basically just ends quickly.
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If you can somehow prove the bleed out is completely unnecessary, griefing, and undeserved, sure. But I don't think you can, and I wouldn't trust the developers to attempt to code that.
Most of the time, however, I am pretty sure if survivors are getting bled out on the ground, there's a reason for it.
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Among advanced players, it is considered a legitimate tactic for killers to use slug all survivors.
Because they know how weak it is for a killer to hook a survivor. There are many cases where it is better for the killer not to hook the survivors, and it may add up to not hooking everyone.
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Slugging is fine the way it is. Killer don't normally slug, unless certain scenarios and situations call for it.
Like for example, I chase Survivor A. Down them, and happen to spot Survivor B with a flashlights trying to be sneaky with their saves. That is perfect reasonable situation, in which slugging is fine as it is not safe to pick up, especially if they are out in the open or if the down Survivor is on top of a pallet.
Another scenario, that most Survivors tend to complain alot about, rare but does happen frequently if the Killer encounter a bully squad or coordinate swfs. The Survivor are grouping up and literally waiting or tempting to find every opportunity to flashlight blind, pallet save, or even lockers stun with Head On. In these types of situations, Attempting to pickup and hook a Survivor is very difficult and pretty much impossible and just feeding Survivor's cocky ego of bullying the killer by any means for a "good time~"
Of course, the killer is a solo player and has no teammates to fall back to and has the power to do whatever is absolutely necessary to win; even if it means playing "unfairly" and toxic to survivors in order to keep them down & keep them at bay; to ensure they can pick them up safely and have a regular match. Rarely would a killer be interested in going for a 4k slug fest kill and have everyone bleed on the ground intentionally, unless no hooks are even close by.
By nerfing Slugging, and making Unbreakable basekit (literally the best recovery perk in the game), like we had in that one PTB testing which showcase how very disastrous this change maded to the game. It made Bully squads and all recovery base perks ridiculous OP and made pick up and hooking nearly impossible. You have Survivors stacking Boil Over, Flip-Flop, Power Struggle, Unbreakable, etc. And literally intentionally getting slug in conventional pallet spawns or open areas like dead dog sallon, basically making themselves easy to get saved by their fellow teammates or do it themselves by dropping pallet with power struggle or getting off with boil over and flip Flop. Basically, killers cannot hook as many Survivors and are more likely forced to bleed them out more or relie on the 4k slug mori system that was implemented in the PTB to win. It made some killers that relie on their power to slug like Oni, Twins, etc. Horrible to play.
You can try to create new ideas to counter Slugging all you want, but it not a easy task considering that it is necessary evil tactic the Killer players need, as a method to apply map pressure in the game. And if by chance, the devs do have a good plan to nerf slugging, they absolutely need to nerf Generators repair speeds or do something huge to give killer map pressure without boring Survivors bleeding on the ground half the time.
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You guys are not understanding my topic. I don't care about slugging. It's when everyone is down. The game is unncessarily long.
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I understand but I don’t agree with it. That’s what the timer is for.
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That's why it should only activate if all team members are down.
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I'm sorry but the part where you said killers normally slug for e reason isn't true. Now, *you* may play that way but there are killers who go out of the way to slug whole team either for easy 4k, or worse, to watch everyone bleed out. It's not ok.
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If slugging all four survivors at once till they bleed out is just part of gameplay, then I'll make a suggestion. Let's have a mechanic where if all four survivors make it to the exit gate, they get a barrier that protects them from the killer. It lasts four minutes and survivors can choose to force the killer to wait till the timer finishes, at which point the survivors win.
There's a bunch of people here defending the right for killers to waste four minutes of the other player's time when the killer has already won, so this shouldn't be a problem, right?
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I mean when 4 people are running a boil over build I sure a ######### aint going to pick anyone up, what do you want from me
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You do realize theres times all you can do is let them bleed out right???
like the infinite self pick up/endurance builds
or ######### boil over builds where you quite literally cant ######### pick them up
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Then fix that crap. Boil Over has been a stupid janky perk for years now.
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I second you on that but even then look at soul guard builds where you get endurance for picking yourself up, and you cant hook bc they all have toolboxes and if you drop them they scatter and repeat, idk why people think killers slug bc they want to, i dont enjoy making people bleed out its boring asf, but some games I cant do jack ######### but that.
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There should be some sort of penalty for survivors who sit and waste time at the gate right by the door squatting up and down. Just makes the game long for no reason.
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Most players don't play in squads, so if they get slugged to death it's genuinely because the killer wants to waste everyone's time. I've only experienced it a few times, but I had an experience where a Bubba managed to down my three teammates who were all in one place, I went over to help and got downed. The Bubba just left everyone on the floor and nobody had UB, so we all just lay there and slowly bled out.
BHVR could make changes that would limit the ability for squads to be obnoxious without harming everyone else, as most players (solo queue) have zero potential to do anything close to what might be considered griefing.
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Odd bc most my games are against players that all know each other.... and are swfing...
"so if they get slugged to death it's genuinely because the killer wants to waste everyone's time"
this is pretty stupid considering I just listed reasons why you are forced to slug but ok just gloss over that
Killers who slug and let you bleed out are a very small minority of players they are just broadcasted so much that it seems like alot of ppl do that when in all actuality they dont.
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Played a team tonight that all had boil over, all sabo'ed, and spread hooks further out with that offering. It was a pain, had to keep slugging them. Finally and very painfully got the 3k. Then I got abused in the lobby over the slugging.
Survivors basically saying "when I bring these certain perks, there is only one way for you to win, and if you use tunneling or slugging despite the huge advantage I have with my SWF, you are bad". So ridiculous.
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- Maybe you are at high MMR, most players aren't. Solo players sure as hell aren't.
- I didn't say that there are no valid reasons to bleed survivors out. I didn't gloss over anything. I didn't even say the majority of killers do it. I'm simply saying that most survivors are not running a full SWF that can make hooking impossible. When they are getting bled out for four minutes straight it's purely because the killer player is trolling.
- If you think that killers wouldn't do it for the lulz then you underestimate just how much hostility some killer players have towards survivors in general. I've seen the term "sociopath" used to describe survivor players quite often.
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- If you think that killers wouldn't do it for the lulz then you underestimate just how much hostility some killer players have towards survivors in general. I've seen the term "sociopath" used to describe survivor players quite often.
That goes both ways dude, theres more toxic survivors then there are killers. I mean its a 1 to 4 ratio your bound to run into more a hole survivors then a ahole killer
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Yep they use feelings over facts, players like that are bottom feeders who ruin this games community and fun
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