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Will Trickster be added to the "Watch List?"
Hi. Noticed you implemented a new measure called the Watch List to note feedback after updates.
I must ask... Why isn't Trickster on it yet?
The feedback he's gotten has been mostly negative from what I've seen. Even people who don't mind the new version admit the old version was more fun, if not challenging. All I want to know is whether or not he will be receiving a similar level of extra "looking at" now that he's gotten an update recently.
It's very saddening to have an update I didn't want dropped out of nowhere-- tweaked to be even further detached from the character I used to like, and then see the following update be teased more actively in advance and have extra care taken to make sure the feedback is good. This was also followed by a dev livestream that announced many future updates long in advance so we can prep our expectations. This feels genuinely unfair.
All that said, I recently updated my entire Trickster feedback post to describe my grievances with the new version. I updated a lot of the aspects of it that the community didn't like and made an effort to give stronger effects. It can be found here. https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/401059/p100-trickster-i-hate-the-rework-updated-feedback/p1
Comments
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@FreeKnives tag 🏷️ all you girl.
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I think it’s safe to assume that Trickster dropped off the watch list when his pinned forum thread got unpinned.
New Trickster is easier for console users, his movement speed got raised to help him with the high amount of clutter the newer maps have, he can use Main Event a lot more often, and his kill rate is probably way better because of all this. I think these are all the goals BHVR wanted to achieve.
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One can always try. :)
Theres nothing wrong with sending out other ideas and feedback for the developers to consider.
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People aren’t sending out new ideas though. People just keep asking for the rework to be reverted.
Sadako’s rework was partially reverted for the sake of survivors. Every single part of her rework was designed to make it more difficult for survivors to get condemn killed. Global condemn was reverted for the survivors…. not for the Sadako players.
So there’s no pressing reason to revert Trickster’s rework. The complaints about him being unfair for survivors, is pretty much where it was before then rework. He’s still “a worse Huntress” for just about everything except camping a hook in a dead zone when 2-3 survivors are trying to swarm the hook for a save. So there isn’t much of a reason to have mass complaints about him being too powerful currently.
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I don’t have much of a say on it one way or the other…I don’t play trickster, so I am not really sure of everything that goes on with him. I leave that to the trickster mains.
However, there are a few trickster mains that are trying to get behavior to fix some of the animations that are broken, voice lines and UI issues for a survivors because that is broken as well apparently. I haven’t tested it myself, but again, according to some of the trickster mains that have I am gonna take their word on it. (These are the said “feedback” that is being provided in addition to rework you mentioned”)
Sadakos first rework per the developers intentions was to make condemn more threatening, they succeeded. It was probably a little too much.
With another rework later, after getting it correct on the PTB now it’s barely a threat at all, and now she is extremely under-tuned. @radiantHero23 If I have stated this correctly my friend. Sometimes I miss details.
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I am also curious about this watch list. The original Trickster Feedback page has 7 pages and Im sure will grow more. Why wouldn't that be on the watch list to continue to monitor and get insight from Trickster mains?
We may not all agree on specifics, but we can agree that we all want BHVR to keep an eye on that forum and hear us all out.
Mandy herself said they have not forgotten about Trickster, but did not have a timeline.
I dont know if its Killa Whale's Paradox of loving DBD video that has me feeling pessimistic .... but it started to make me nervous on whether or not they were actually considering this or if it is on the back burner to make way for something new instead... I have no reason to doubt Mandy, but I just want to hear a little more.
BTW Starstruck,
Revvium added a visual representation to the initial idea you posted about better indicators for survivors when it comes to the laceration meter without harming the Trickster reliance on decay. This version Trickster is literally held together by his decay meter, which is why I was wary of your suggestion before. But it makes sense now. You should take a look at that. Its in the original forum.
I also took a lot of time (A lOT) to clip and show many audio and visual bugs some of which affect balancing. Not just quality of life but would be nice if thats considered too. Im not even talking new ideas, I'm talking fixing things and bringing things back that exist on back up Im sure.
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Condemned is way to weak due to the nerfs from the PTB. Playing Sadako right now leads to a lot of unhealthy gameplay, because her strenght is too low. Slower tape insertion, no lock on max for hooking and no cooldown on projection, she would be in a much better spot.
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He feels more or less the same, just different, in terms of strength. Its like his weaknesses and strengths shifted to other areas. You said that people who enjoy Trickster now still admit he was more fun then...Yeah thats not wrong. Hes missing some of his flair and attraction from before. The reason may vary slightly from person to person. I miss when his audio and animation worked and was synced properly, I miss the ramping. I miss his no reload playstyle as a carrot to chase....and miss that he was high-risk high reward. To some extent, again its like things shifted, he still requires skill but not as much in some areas. Yeah he is easier to use now, he can get downs faster now, which helps when you have gens popping faster than expected...and for console, I would say that my carrot I chase, is still there but there is no reward ingame for it. I.e. No reload from DTC. The carrot I chase now is working towards "PC smooth aim" with controller, but I would have strived for that with previous Trickster too. But no recoil does help. PC might not feel as rewarding now though. And thats unfortunate. The only thing I ever asked for was no recoil, and 4.6.... but 4.6 wasn't because I was on controller, it was a bigger problem that I had yet to grasp... it was some of the survivor perks, some of which have been nerfed since. Which leads to even bigger problems, balancing with perks in general. So if I had realized that this was bigger than just Trickster issue, I may have not thought 4.6 was the solution for Trickster, if I had known what I know today about Trickster. That said it helps with tight loops, but so can current PC addon (if you dont miss). I still enjoy him but he still feels like something is missing that 4.4 had.
I always say incentive is better than limitation when trying to correct an unwanted behavior. Im not sure what exactly Behavior is trying to correct or prevent with the reworks when it comes to Trickster...whether camping or tunneling. The whole time I assumed this was all meant to be a buff...and learned it really wasn't when the update happened after PTB (laceration decay was 10s). It would be nice if BHVR was more clear like they wrote on Sadakos update after PTB, whether they are wrong or right, in why they made certain changes. We were made to believe the rework was to be a buff, but a lot of tweaks would say it was to add limitation, so just understanding and having clearer dialogue with the thought process to changes would be nice.
Survivors that say Trickster 's "spam" lack the understanding of his power. Throwing knives in general, is "spam" to them. To me missing knives and continuing to throw mindlesslessly is spam. Basically wasting knives. A lot of survivor frustration could be alleviated by UI changes to help survivors understand Trickster's power and laceration fall off, rather than nerfs and limitations. You could even, dare I say "buff" his basekit, if more survivors stopped DC'ing and actually started using counterplay that they learned. Ultimately you have to buff a killer if counterplay is becoming too easy. I used to think survivors didn't want to learn counterplay, that they were lazy about it, but it dawned me, this game doesn't quite help people learn anything....There is so much to learn...lol its on the community to teach other, but UI and making sure things work properly, is a good start to helping us help each other. Maybe better tips acquired from top killer mains, in the loading screen for survivors....Just throwing more ideas out...into the unpinned forum void. But BHVR needs input, they cant function without player input. So I doubt they willingly dont listen. Maybe they think they have it all figured out already? At the same time...Nobody who develops games has the same amount of time a player can devote into said game, so a developer will never have the experience to fine tune their own game by their own experience. Unless you are Yoshi P, from Final Fantasy 14. Then yes, you can trust he knows cause he somehow has the time to play an mmo, but even he has to take player considerations into account cause its impossible to know what the community knows collectively.
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The problem is that a lot of unnecessary nerfs are bundled in with the suggestions.
If the suggestions are for Trickster to be louder, or make more noises, or make more varied noises... then we don't need those nerfs in the game. Trickster doesn't need obnoxiously unnecessary noises, that can cover up important survivor noises, just so some people can have "immersion". It's difficult enough to hear survivors, especially with the overtuned sound occlusion. And just because someone mains a certain killer, doesn't mean they'll have better ideas on how to balance that killer.
Trickster being quieter all around, is a good thing, because it's easier to hear other stuff.
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I dont know what BHVR should do about Trickster, but, his main problems is 8 knifes to injured, 6 was perfect and should back to 6. Trickster looks like a child forgotten by his family at the gas station after his surprise rework.
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I don’t disagree there.
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yeah i don't see any problems with him. he is fine where he is at. The thing about huntress is that huntress has worse maps now then trickster. His movement speed being increased makes a lot less susceptible to bad maps like RPD. I am sure huntress changes will make her have less bad maps.
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He is in a better spot than the previous update. I wouldn't say hes better than 4.4, just easier to use than 4.4. Which over time can feel less rewarding...More so for PC. Because at least for console, we still have the inherent difficulty of joystick to chase mastering. Something to work towards. He is held together by 15s decay meter for sure. Could he feel better? Yeah. But no matter what is done or left alone, the complaints coming from survivors could be figured out without nerfing him or reworking. He could use fixes to survivor hud with laceration meter and that can even be improved to help survivors understand what his power does, which could lead to better counterplay without touching Trickster himself. In fact, if survivors could do better counterplay by knowledge alone the fear of him being strong wouldn't be such over-exaggerated fear. Maybe thats hand holding but I prefer that to nerfing him or making him m1 leaning. His animations that had sfx, like knives, and Main Event, that he had before getting lost to the ether, could act as cues as well as quality of life to his overall feeling. Very subtle not obnoxious sfx. Why is so much of his sound and animation broken in the first place anyway? He could feel a lot better and I can say that these changes could help balancing without worrying about things getting worse, because these things dont affect his basekit.
For me, 4.6 really doesn't do what I thought it would. Maybe the map changes are infact the reason for updating him, IDK. It does feel like in many situations that you gained map pressure with 4.6, you lost the lethality of his power which was also overall pressure....and I think thats why he doesn't "feel" good to people asking for revert Trickster. It doesn't mean this version is bad, or that 4.4 couldn't have been improved, its that something is lacking currently that 4.4 had. He was well-designed as 4.4, but maybe needed updating because of meta perks and broken chain loops. But...maybe those things should have been addressed in other ways outside of Trickster...
I agree. Hes fine. I really dont mind this Trickster, but he is still lacking in something that is hard to articulate without leading to "just change this" "change that" Because you cant just change this or that without adjusting everything else. And thats delicate. It's pretty complex with Trickster, and thats what makes him so unique. You may be concerned because the update fumble, but they did come up with this character in the first place, the same team that brought the bad update also made 4.4 Trickster and a not so bad 4.6 Trickster. So hopefully, Mandy means it, they are thinking on it and hes not on the back burner.
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Oh cool, I'll have to find it sometime. Thanks for letting me know, Revvium seems nice.
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Yeah Revvium is a cool dude. Very passionate about Trickster...well, I guess we all are huh.
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