A simple solution to the biggest complains/problems?
Hello
I keep it quick and simple, but i like the idea so i thought i will share it with the community. Here we go.
It is safe to say, that the most complains and possible the biggest issues this game overall has are the two following:
- Gen rush
- Tunneling
Sure, other things like Skull Merchant, bad map design, inballanced perks, annoying killer powers like Skull Merchant's and Skull Merchant are also things that need to be adressed. But gameplay wise, those two are in general the biggestes issues.
The issue with both of them:
Survivors gen rush, because killer tunnel, and killer tunnel because survivors gen rush. These are the optimal strategies and they go hand in hand and are entangled in a vicious circle.
Some argue, that killers or survivors need a better incetive to let go of their most optimal strategy. But there is no way to do so, since both sides reaching already for the best possible incetive: Winning the game. Bloodpoints are not so meaningfull for most, pip is a thing from the past and following a "rulebook" is rediculous to many.
Others say, killers or survivor need to be punished, and while i agree that punishment is in that case way more effective then creating better incetives (its hardly possible as i said), it leaves a very sour taste.
I thought about if there is a way to fix the issues without punishing nore creating incentives without completly puting the game upside down.
The (super simple) idea:
(numbers are not carved in stone, they are there for showcasing the idea)
At the start of the trial, survivors repair speed is 80%. This stays that way, until someone gets hooked a second time. At that point, repairspeed increases to 105%. Once the first survivor dies, repair speed increases to 125%.
The first hook stage timer is increased by 20 seconds (nono to early camping)
Thats it.
Benefits for this way:
There is no more early game gen rush because its not possible.
There would not be tunneling killer, because they would loose the game if they dont pressure gens early and give survivors the repair boost.
Rounds would be way more even and more ballanced all around. Survivors are not too overpowered in the early and killers are not too overpowered in the late game
Killer wont have to worrie to much that gens are flying. They can go out of there way and actually spread hooks. In fact, it would be way more optimal then tunneling a survivor.
Share your thoughts please. And if you find logic issues or even aspects to improve, share them aswell.
Kind regards
Comments
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Putting aside that everyone has a different definition of those words:
As much as we like the idea, it really wouldn't stop people from tunneling. People will tunnel because they wish too. Granted least it's a lot more likely that the others escape through the doors with this.
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I've always thought that as long as 3 survivors repairing gens (while the 4th is in chase) is faster than 2 survivors repairing gens (while the 3rd survivor is in chase and the 4th is dead), there will be a good reason to tunnel.
For that reason, the numbers would have to be strong enough that 2 survivors repairing gens when a survivor has died is still as fast as 3 survivors repairing gens when everyone's alive.
Even that might not be enough. Keeping a 4th survivor in the match longer doesn't just mean faster repairs. It also means more body blocks, more flashlights, toolkits, or medkits, more boons, their 4 perks, more eyes on the killer, more survivors disarming traps, etc.
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That's not solution, that's just big nerf to survivors.
All survivors will start with repair penalty (80% speed on gens) which removes only advantage from survivors: EARLY GAME.
Yes. Survivors are strong only at early game. Why? Because noone is in chase. Noone on hook. Noone is injured. Everyone can repair gens. And we are adding big penalty to this.
And if one survivor dies, it does not matter how much speed you give to team. Because they won't be free to work on gens. Because let's say, one will be on hook, one will be in chase and one will have to go save. That's why 3 v 1 games are mostly ending with survivor loses, that's why killers want to tunnel one survivor out.
So your solution is just big nerf to survivors but no solution of tunnelling. That's not good idea.
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I fear this will not work out. It will either come as an overwhelming nerf to survivors, or become very abusable. Both cases are obviously not good.
How does a killer find 2 (or worse yet 4) survivors that use Distortion and hide? They still repair gens but the killer can only chase whomever they find, so there would be someone on 2nd hook pretty soon and they would all get the extra repair speed. At that point, the killer once again has no choice other than tunneling that survivor out to slow the game. This is still better than having 3 survivors on gens at all times. Turn it up the speed much higher though and you create a simple lose-lose situation.
Additionally, slowing survivors down as long as nobody was hooked twice might lead to are rise in slugging. If they can't finish the game faster than the killer that is not focusing on progressing steadily but instead wearing them down and slugging until all 4 survivors lie on the ground, the compensatory gen speed buff would never kick in. But the repair speed penalty would enable this (at least on some killers).
An overall nerf to survivors in that regard would only work, if it didn't affect the more chill groups. Keep in mind, we do not need to limit the solo group's efficiency that is goofing off and just barely managed to repair 3 gens by the 6 minute mark. They still have a chance to win but not, if we arbitrarily limit them further. I don't think this would go over well either. So you would need to turn down the repair speed penalties. Massively.
But at that point we have survivors that are almost as fast as always from the get go and become much faster as the match progresses. So it would work as an overall penalty to the killer for the crime of doing their objective (no matter how). Meaning you'd have to turn down the extra speed massively as well. So this entire thing would need to be turned down until it does almost nothing, which would leave us in the same situation we are already in.
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I like where you’re going with the idea but maybe it can be tweaked a little bit.
Maybe repair speeds can be less than 100% at the start of the game. And every time a Survivor gets killed the repair speed goes up.
It’s similar to your idea but instead of triggering from hooks it triggers from kills. Also 80% is probably too drastic. Maybe 90% would be better.
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If there’s one thing that’s proven to be true in this game, it does not matter how much you nerf survivor or buff killer, some people will always try to make it a 3v1 as early as possible. There’s been numerous, numerous examples in the past of the community asking for something because it’s the reason either survivors genrush or killers tunnel, that change is made, and nothing changes.
As long as it’s easier to win with 3 survivors alive instead of 4, nothing will ever change. There will always be another excuse to get rid of somebody as early as possible. The goalposts have moved so much over the past few years on this issue it's actually ridiculously funny.
"Gen speeds are too fast! They should take longer and killers won't feel the need to tunnel", Gen speed increased by 50 seconds overall, and in reality probably closer to a whole 6th generator when adding regression into the mix. People still tunnel.
"Gen regression perks are too bad! Only Corrupt and Ruin are viable!" Jolt buffed, Pop buffed, Grim Embrace buffed, Pain Res, Dead Man's Switch, Overcharge, Call of Brine and Eruption meta happened. People still tunneled, more if anything.
"Survivor healing speeds are too fast! I can't apply enough pressure to stop survivors from cranking out gens!" Healing speed nerfed, Circle of Healing nerfed, medkits nerfed, sloppy butcher buffed, thanatophobia buffed, etc. People still tunneled.
"Survivors aren't healing anymore due to the nerf to healing, now they're only doing gens and not healing!" Kept tunneling.
"Toolboxes are too strong! They shave way too much time off gens, change those and people won't have to tunnel!" Toolboxes nerfed, BNP nerfed, scavenger destroyed before even making it to live. Nothing changed.
Let's be real, the community (including me) doesn't know what they want and don't know how to fix this game. It's been out 8 years, it's going to take a full on overhaul and a plethora of changes to fix the issue of tunneling. Every change this game has made has came with a different excuse as to why people continue to play the way they play. It's more than likely never going to change considering the scale of changes they would need to make, it would more than likely require them to take a content break and we've seen that they're not willing to do that. Everything else is a band-aid fix.
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I agree with your overall point, but I think it's important to be as accurate as possible in these conversations - there was not a healing speed nerf, that change didn't make it off the PTB. It's also worth mentioning that the massively fast self heal speed was a problem that affected every killer, not just tunnelling ones, that warranted changing without that implied cause. By which I mean, it wasn't part of this cycle, it was just a normal balance change for its own sake.
I also don't think toolboxes were nerfed? Wasn't the last change to them that the skill check chance was buffed?
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To the wider topic, I think this somewhat misunderstands both problems. Genrushing won't be addressed until the tools that enable it are changed - this change seems to assume that genrushing is just survivors being on generators as a priority, but if that's what we consider genrushing, the term has no meaning. Genrushing, in my book, is bringing the strongest possible tools (always a toolbox, plus one of two sets of supporting perks; either Hyperfocus/Stake Out, or something like Streetwise and Built To Last) and cranking out generators as fast as possible. Rework toolboxes and the problem vanishes-- not that it's a particularly big problem right now, to be clear.
Similarly, tunnelling is something people do because it's easy, not because the alternative is too weak. You can make not tunnelling as strong as you like - and BHVR have been making pretty hefty changes in that regard - and tunnelling will still happen unless the tools to punish it are potent enough that it stops seeming like the easiest shortcut to value.
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I dont think killer would tunnel at all, because the only reason they do is it is the best strategy at the moment.
With a change like this, pressure gens / spread hooks and make survviors bussy would be more effective.
Not sure if this is actually a survivor nerf. Why would it be?
If killers can not tunnel anymore (aka no quick 3v1), slower early gens completly justify the repair penalty.
And if killer keeps tunneling, gens will fly after the 2nd down.
Again, like i said, those number are not carved in stone. If it would be more fair to make it 80/120/150% repair speed or 70/100/130 is not up to debate, its about the bigger pictuer.
That is what i am trying to do with the idea.
The repair speed at the beginning is less then 100%, but once a survivor is hooked twice, it goes up to above 100%. If a killer kills of a survivor, the speed goes up much much faster.
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If there’s one thing that’s proven to be true in this game, it does not matter how much you nerf survivor or buff killer, some people will always try to make it a 3v1 as early as possible.
Not with the idea i presented. Thats the point. If a killer would only focus on this one survivor, gen speed will go up fast so survivors will actually, even in 3v1 have a very good chance to dominate the killer.
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I personally think that repair speeds should only speed up on kills but overall I respect your idea.
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"because the only reason they do is it is the best strategy at the moment"
This is the part where we disagree. Have been camped, tunneled, and smacked on hook for having the name "Rulebreaker" before and thats one of the tame crazy reasons. People will do as they wish and even if punished or rewarded, if they wana tunnel, they gonna tunnel. Hell, we've even been guilty of irrationally tunneling for a stupid reason, and we very much like to think we're not the worst the DBD community has to offer.
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I totally get that and really do like your idea. I think it would definitely benefit the game if a system like that was in place, but like Rulebreaker stated right above, people will still tunnel anyways and I think it would still be prominent enough that it would be a major complaint.
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You’re totally right about the healing nerfs, I forgot that got patched before it went live, and honestly I’m not sure about toolboxes, I rarely ever used or use them, but I was definitely under the impression they were nerfed (at the very least commodious definitely was). And you’re right about the healing speed affecting every killer, but I was more so using that as I remember at the time of healing being stupid fast, a lot of people were saying that was the main contributing factor as to why they tunneled. Don’t want to give them a chance to heal quickly.
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We all have been tunneled and camped for whatever reason, and it will never change. There are always those who do it just because. But they are clearly outnumbers by those wo tunnel for the win.
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That is something we do not believe in the slightest. Just so we're clear, we might be wrong, we might not, but that is our opinion on the matter as none of us knows what everyone's true motives are.
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