remove and/or stop making unfun killer designs
most older killers are designed to chase survivors and win by way of superior skill, knowledge, and mind gaming. most recent killers(the last 3 years worth) are designed to ignore resources, camp, tunnel, return to hooks, teleport around, ect. and it makes the game severely unfun with so many characters whos game mechanics are designed to have an unfun playstyle.
i guess you could make the argument that the game wants to be or should be versatile and "fun" is subject to opinion. but people who want to play a FPS so they buy CoD would be little bummed if they load the game up and are asked to pick their NFL team then load into a game of Madden.
this game had a theme and it used to be great but now so many killer characters just seem very unfun to play against. a content creator made a video about the most fun and unfun killers from both sides and Trickster was most unfun and Huntress was most fun. again, opinions are a thing. but there is a reason people run up to Skull Merchant and die on first hook all the time but very rarely does a random DC or hook suicide against a Billy or Huntress.
have any long time players ever felt like this, even a little bit?
Comments
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I disagree, we need more anti-loop killers, especially ones that can guarantee hits through windows and pallets and forcefully zoning the survivors, surely that'll be interactive for both sides!
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Myers tombstone says hi. Old 7 blink Nurse says hi.
Older killer design is not better by any means. The game has simply changed over the years.
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I find Huntress extremely unfun to play against. Whatever content creator you're citing, i don't care for their opinion.
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The killers that straight-up ignore the loops and give a middle finger to the survivors are becoming a huge problem. The Knight and Alien are especially bad cases, there are many situations where the survivor simply has to get hit no matter what.
what are the survivors playing the game for? What is the appeal of survivor, doing generators? No, it's looping. The more killers are able to shut it down with a button press, the less reason survivors have to play.
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I wanna know what killers were "designed" to camp and tunnel.
It seems like such a nonsense claim when most killers can't use their power around hooked survivors.
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Either Bubba and Pyramid Head (both old and oldish) or he means Knight "camping with a guard", a common misconception by the uninformed who don't know that any guard will despawn if you touch a hooked survivor. I really guess its Knight, because he is a rather recent addition.
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I'd actually relent on bubba and pyramid head because they are the best at camping and tunneling respectively but they said recent killers which is why I don't know what they're talking about.
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Anti-loop killers are what makes killers good and viable againts good Survivors.
What you are asking in other words is "I want killers to have more counterplay and be more easy to win againts". You would remove all S,A and like majority of B tier killers.
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So every Killer released after Pyramid head (and including)???
What about their design makes them bad???
Also there was a Killer that "broke the mold"
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Overall, older killer design was better, though that doesn't mean every modern killer is bad.
I think Knight's design is excellent when he works properly. Singularity is also extremely fun to play against.
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anti loop killers are not the answer. those combined with excessive slow downs and gen oppression perks are what make the game suck for any low-mid tier team not in comms. a better way to look at this is survivors buy time with looping. killers need to be able to shut down chase and build pressure to force survivors off their objective in order to win. anti gen and anti healing perks are unfun(in my opinion) and not the answer to winning.
instead killers need perks and powers to help close chases and force survivors into doing something other than gens to buy the killer precious time. thats why things like the vaccine/spray/cube/bear trap are very cool concepts we should see more of and things like machinegun throwing knives, tentacle whip, crows, remnant, drones, guards, remote camera tags, tail whips, and scamper which all ignore pallets and windows(the survivors only two resources, one of which is very limited) tend to be more frustrating than fun to play against. lets not forget this thread was about making the game more fun, not allowing either side to win more often or with greater ease.
do all of the afore mentioned mechs have counterplay? yes, to a degree. but how many times can you fake a window or shift direction befor the killer learns what you are going to do? Tofu made a video a while back covering why the killer themes were getting to be less or even unfun. this is sort of the same idea. i just think that killers should win more by skill in chase and forcing survivors off the main objective and survivors should win by looping and working as a team and not wasting time. i dont want to play a game where my win is in the same category as buying a scratch ticket, i want to think what i do affects the outcome of a match but the game is often not like that anymore which is what makes it feel unfun.
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tunnel was the wrong word, i meant slug. Slugging is a pressure tactic but the Twins entire playstyle is designed around it which makes them extremely unfun. How much fun is it to bleed out 9 out of 10 times you lose to a specific killer?
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OK, Nurse Blight Plague Wesker Spirit Billy Huntress, all very strong killers. None of which fall into the topic of this thread. All very fun to play as and against with unique powers to shut down chases without making looping obsolete.
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"Fun to play as/against" is very subjective and each people has different opinions about that.
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The best killers are high-mobility killers. Pyramid Head and Deathslinger aren't viable at competitive levels.
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Deathslinger no but Pyramid head's ability to tunnel makes him quite viable in comp. Plague and Artist are also viable and neither one of them are mobility killers.
It's not that slower killers aren't viable there are a few that very much are I'd argue it's just that they're harder to play and few people wanna put the work into learning them when high mobility is both viable and easy to play.
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The issue is that all killers are 'unfun' to someone, you can't use a subjective description to decide what killers should and shouldn't exist.
They want all killers to have unique kits and play differently from each other, that means there are always going to be some killers that some people just don't like.
Also, while anti-loop killers are generally unpopular with survivors, they're needed because without any anti-loop, it's not very fun for most killer players to play against good loopers. No matter how good you are with most m1 killers, a really solid survivor is gonna waste too much of your time.
Also gotta mention how Billy was considered the most 'fun' killer to go against back when he was weaker, now that he's actually really strong, suddenly suvivors hate going against him, curious.
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most recent killers(the last 3 years worth) are designed to ignore resources, camp, tunnel, return to hooks, teleport around, ect.
You just described pretty much every possible aspect of killer powers. I mean, what else is left? A M1 killer with no power would neither be very original nor fun.
Mobility is always a good thing for a well designed killer. Many of the most popular killers to play against (Blight, Billy, Demo and Oni for example) have mobility in their kits. Because without mobility they lose a lot of time to traverse the map, which they then need to compensate for in other ways like the chase. Which then means they have to be all the more oppressive in these areas.
You cannot have a killer that only focusses on one thing alone and expect them to be liked by a majority of players. BHVR know that and most killers they designed over the last 3 years have different things in their power to prevent the necessity of overcompensation in one aspect. Look at Trickster for example. He has nothing outside of chasing. So his chase power has to be incredibly strong to make up for it. Do most survivors like to play against him? No.
For years we had debates about "boring anti loop killers". Then they brought Sadako into the game which clearly showed that a killer without some kind of chase power will need to compensate for that in different ways (this is how the slugging for condemned play style started). These can also be very unfun to play against. Side objectives were requested for years and yet we see a lot of people who hate to play against such killers.
You will never be able to design a killer that is liked by everyone. Name your favorite killer to play against and I guarantee there will be someone, that hates this killer the most. But when you start hating a majority of the killers in the game, then it's time to either stop playing survivor or to take a little break. Because it sounds like you don't enjoy the game right now but the memories that you have.
It's also not clear what makes a good killer in your opinion. I would really like to hear that. Is it a well balanced kit or only a single trait? What killers do you like and why?
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The only thing im reading is " Remove Killers Who has Antiloop and Map Control make more Killers i can loop for ever so i hv easier Chance to escape whitout any Skill "
Anti loop and Map control is the thing that makes some Killers good at against highrank Survivor and even then there are Killers who have both and are still Bad against Highrank ( like my 2 Mains Dredge and Singularity )
And whit all of the 2nd Chance Perks Survivors have u need a Killer whit a decent Anti loop or Chase Power look at the god Window at Garden of Pain or Haddonfield a M1 Killer like Sadako cant do anything against it
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Two things.
Pure anti-loop Killers are bad design. Killers that have anti-loop aren't necessarily bad design.
For example, Wesker. He has anti-loop, but he is good design.
Another example, Knight. He's just anti-loop.
Billy being strong has little to do with frustration. A lot of players are playing him in an exceptionally sweaty way, some of his addons were overtuned AND most importantly, He's played A LOT.
Even someone like Wesker or Huntress, objectively well-designed Killers are annoying to play against after so many matches in a row.
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designed to chase = loopable. we can talk whenever this mentality changes because those playstyles have nothing to do with killer design. yes most later killers are boring and lacking but i don't agree with you looking into it from such a perspective.
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Since Blight, they released one single well designed killer: The Mastermind. Ironically he is among the strongest so its not a skill issue of survivors.
The rest of the bunch? Trickster, Alien, Twins, Artist, Ceno, Skull Merchant, Knight and Scamper Doll.
Its so bad that i did not even mentioned Dredge or Singularity, because compared to those above, they actually look pretty solid. What a shame.
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To be honest, I still don't get what people find fun about Wesker. Except his chase music, but that could have been given to any other killer.
To me he is a contender for worst killer to go against, and I was really surprised when I learned most players do not hate him.
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He is very strong but at the same time has absolutly fair counterplay. His anti loop is not a silly press 1 button and win mechanic what we usually get now but rather he must play well to perform well. And so do have survivors. A bad survivor wont last more then a few seconds against a good Wesker. Skill expression at its finest we have.
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I dont think the OP said that.
We need more killer where skill expression is for both sides a thing. Wesker, Huntress, Billy, Blight ect... you get the idea.
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I still don't see it.
It is a dash and a countdown towards the Hindered status effect. I don't think this is a kit that provides an enjoyable experience for the survivors.
He might be fun to play as, I do not know. But against?
Pass. There are way better options.
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Other than Spirit this is a great list of killers that are unplayable on console.
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Meant to quote this
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The thing is is that they physically NEED killers that have kits designed to require less skill to use and be more suited for casual players. As of right now these killers are one of the things keeping the game alive because having a game that is WAY TOO competitive-based makes the game not very accessible to casual players and casual players are always the majority of players in any game. If they made it hard for killers to win chases for casual players due to everything requiring pure skill then a lot of players are just gonna start leaving and the only other ways to prevent that would be to either just make more of these killers or just start gutting a ton of stuff from the survivor side even more so that it's easier on those players.
TLDR: These kinds of killers are sorta needed just so that casual players can actually enjoy an overly-competitive game.
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Newer killers like knight and skull merchant have some of the most viable play mechanics for console players. Btw, can we finally get mouse and keyboard support for consoles? What's the holdup with that?
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Nurse does shut down loops, though. You don't conventionally loop Nurse, and you usually don't end up using pallets against her.
Similarly, windows and pallets are some of the easiest places to get hits with Huntress and Plague (with Corrupt Purge up).
I am genuinely having a hard time getting a read on what you want killers to do. There's basically no killer in the game right now that really makes looping obsolete except Nurse, so I guess you're referring to the issue of some killers being able to use their power to force you away? But at that point, there's only three of those in the game (Artist, Knight, Skull Merchant) and none of them are designed to do that, it's a flaw in their kit.
Maybe it'd be constructive to ask for a list of the killers you think epitomise this 'unfun design', if you're willing?
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You left out Nemesis, Dredge, Sadako, and Singularity.
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I guess it is a personal taste, not everybody is the same. I will most likely never understand how you could possible find Dull Merchant fine, arguably the least skill expressive killer.
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It is a matter of personal taste, yes, but it is good to have debates about it. Trying to see things from different perspectives is always helpful.
And I don't think I ever said Skull Merchant is fine as she is. I said she shouldn't take priority over other killers who need changes (A.K.A Freddy). There is a difference.
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I would agree my friend! :)
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I also agree to this. He isn’t hard to loop but I hate going against him. For me personally he’s extremely boring to play against and the fact that I am still infected after I got off hook is silly when most other killers powers deactivate while hoping off the hook, but I guess they treat it like plagues infection.
either way wesker is -1000 out of 10 for me to go against.
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Killers have had anti-loop since the beginning. Nurse, the first DLC killer, is the physical embodiment of anti-loop, and that's probably why she's the best killer in the game. She's designed to be un-loopable. Beyond her, though, we have Hag, who can use her traps to bodyblock pallets and windows and get hits on top of that; Doctor, who can make Survivors scream and thus block them from using pallets and windows; Pig, who has a dash attack; Spirit, who can turn invisible and zoom around a loop; and Demo, who can Shred to break pallets or catch survivors from a distance. These are all killers with anti-loop built into their kits.
On average, Anti-loop killers also have very high capacity for skill expression and techs, which killer players are drawn too. Artist has bird-sniping, Dredge has Remnant games, Wesker has a number of techs like the rebound and hug tech, Singularity has mid-chase tag-and-teleport (which activates his anti-loop), Xeno has the "fishing" tech, and Chucky has his dashes. Is all anti-loop good? No. Knight's and SM's anti-loop are bad because they are both fire-and-forget. No skill expression there. Their skill expression comes in other parts of their gameplay. However, anti-loop killers generally have more skill expression than non-anti-loop killers. Where's Trapper's skill expression? The only skill expression Trapper has is where he sets his traps, which is at best an educated guess that may never pay off. What about Legion? Do they have much of any skill expression?
I don't understand the argument of removing anti-loop killers from the game. That feels like saying exhaustion perks should be removed because they give a survivor a "get out of jail free" card to either get out of a deadzone that THEY let themselves be caught in, or because it allows them to chain loops they would not be able to otherwise. The whole point of exhaustion perks and anti-loop is to add variation and uncertainty into the gameplay loop. They keep it fresh instead or formulaic. Killers have to play around survivor tools for extending chases, and survivors have to play around killer tools for shortening them.
The truth is that, because of how the game works, chases can't be long. If a killer is getting into a bad first chase, then the optimal thing to do is drop the chase and go for someone else, because, if they don't they could lose 3 gens in one chase. They shouldn't but it can happen. Survivors typically spawn on their objective, while killers usually spawn across the map from them and have to search. There are also toolboxes and gen speed perks, which make gen repairs take less than 90 seconds. When we put all of this together, a "good" first chase for survivor, or a "bad" one for killer, doesn't have to be 90 seconds.
The three main ways that chases are shortened is make the killer stronger, make the survivor weaker, or give the killer a power that fundamentally alters how loops work, usually anti-loop. BHVR usually goes for anti-loop, probably because any basekit or perk buffs to killer buff Nurse and Blight, survivors don't like nerfs (understandable), and new powers with anti-loop keep gameplay fresh. It may not be fun for survivors, but it is fresh.
Edit: Forgot to add that the stats published recently also show that comms don't necessarily make a team more likely to survive any killer, except at High MMR. Mandy confirmed that "High MMR" is referring to a really low number of players above the soft cap. https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/405429/which-percentile-is-considered-high-mmr-by-bhvr
Post edited by EQWashu on3 -
I'm actually mixed on playing as him as well as playing against him. When I play him, he either feels like Budget Billy™ or worse Blight. I don't know, guess I'm just missing something. But then again, what do I know? I main Singularity.
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most other killers powers deactivate while hoping off the hook
Not really? The only examples I can think of is Freddy and Singularity.
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And you're doing the right thing, my friend, because Singularity is WAY more fun to go against than Wesker.
This.
It is not matter of skill, it is a matter of having fun.
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And you're doing the right thing, my friend, because Singularity is WAY more fun to go against than Wesker.
Unless it's a hardcore 3-genning Singularity. Then it's as fun as dentistry. Haven't encountered one since the anti-3-gen nerf but I bet they still exist and I bet they're still horrible to deal with.
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I would hope now that we all have to contend with regression limits, that the system has at least killed 3-genning as a playstyle on any killer.
But yeah, Singularity's proficiency in area defense probably does make him horrible in a 3-gen scenario. Knightlight actually did that in a tournament as a last hoorah before the anti-3-gen and won.
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It's fitting to point out how fun is subjective in a thread about unfun killer designs. It just hammers home the point that no one's going to be happy with every killer, so the best BHVR can aim for is balance, which includes a Freddy rework.
A good Freddy rework.
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Every "X killer is boring" comment should be thrown in the bin (unless its SM) because no matter which killer you play someone somewhere is gonna call them boring from Pig to perkless addonless no hatchet huntress
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I do not quite understand what you mean with "press 1 button and win mechanic"... what killer has this in your opinion? Why are there so many people in this threat who just cant do anything but complain. Do you realise that many of the recent Killers are not amongst the best Killers? Why do you say that Wesker is so good because he has fair counterplay, if there are Killers like Dredge and Artist who also have fair counterplay?
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Still doesn’t change the opinion I have about Wesker. I dislike going against him very much.
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I know and you know where I stand my friend :)
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I've actually never seen one of those, but they shouldn't be a problem now. Not with the anti 3-gen mechanic.
It is what we are all hoping for :)
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Knight and SM are typical press 1 button and get a hit killer.
Its not about best killer or not, its about fun killer or not. And recent killers are mainly unfun for the majority of survivors. Thats the topic here.
Dredge and Artist counterplay is Hold W (if you can). Pretty awesome! Just how interactive chases should be, right? I played enough Dredge to know that this is a fact.
"Every complain should be ignored, unless those i agree with"
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All the newest killers remove chase as an aspect from this game. The best killer perks remove generator progress from the game. altruism is pointless because of tunneling. the only thing left is to hide like a rat, which is the PEAK of gameplay imo. Love it! (I've been playing since release, it wasn't like this until 2 years ago.) Nothing can change my mind about the tunnel mentality. Should there be incentives to not tunnel? Yes. Chase someone off hook, Lets go crazy with it, every survivor gets 50% gen repair speed. Would that incentivize not tunneling? I think so. You are deliberately ruining this game by tunneling, and for the life of me I cannot understand how it would be fun for killers to do it. Kill streak mentality, and a GOD awful MMR system incentivize it.
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