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remove and/or stop making unfun killer designs
Comments
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The funny thing is, antiloop killers can still be dodged (or just prerun.) It isn’t easy to hit a competent survivor who knows how to dodge. The standard for something being “OP” in this community is basically that the survivor has to make some kind of play and can’t be 100% safe.
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What I think this comment illustrates is that "anti-loop" is a term people seem to use for wildly different things.
Here you're using it to refer to a damaging attack that would be used at a loop, right? Something like a Wesker dash, or a Nemesis Tentacle Strike, things like that?
Whereas a lot of other people (including in this thread) use it to refer to things put down at a loop to pressure survivors away, like a Skull Merchant drone or an Artist idle crow.
It's one of those terms I think everyone has to define as they're using it or these kinds of conversations become talking past one another real quick.
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tbh dredge and artist are very much loopable imo. its all about the mindgames. you can use their power against them.
For knight and SM you are mostly correct. i still dont find them as annoying as most ppl say, but tbh it really depends on how their chase playstyle is.
but even then, knight and SM do not explain why so many ppl talk about EVERY killer in recent times. these are two out of many
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People definitely seem to have conflicting opinions on what counts as anti-loop. Is any killer that has a power that makes running around in a circle more dangerous considered an "anti-loop killer"? Because if so then we're putting Skull Merchant in the same boat as Clown.
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More to the point, that definition would include most killers. I think the most fair way to describe anti-loop if it isn't meant to always be a problem is powers designed to punish unsafe use of resources-- so a Nemesis Tentacle Whip that can hit you in animations if you space yourself poorly, that kind of thing.
If it's meant to be a problem, then it should refer to the Artist/Knight/SM concept of something dropped at a loop to force you away.
Anything beyond those two starts to get really muddy, in my opinion.
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It is what we are all hoping for :)
It is what the Freddy mains deserve.
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i understand that. can we take a vote as to who thinks Trickster, Knight, Twins, Xeno, Pinhead, Skull Merchat, Artist, Dredge, and Singularity are amongst the most fun killers to play against? The person who brags about winning due to excessive survivor DCs or hook suicides is having as much fun as the team they beat. Nobody respects a CoD or Halo players skill who would say "I have 1000 kill streak with God mode mode enabled. i wonder why everyone keeps leaving the lobby".
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thats because your comprehensive reading skills are severely sub par. this isnt about balance or who should win more. its not about buffs and nerfs. its about unfun mechanics that lead to extremely stale gameplay for survivors and killers alike.
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can anyone copy and paste where in the post i said this was about anti loop killers? its about unfun killers who have no real tactical counterplay other than get as much distance as you can and pray the randoms split up and do gens because even a 5 year old can close chase against pros in less than 20 seconds on a very consistent basis. killers whom "survivor skill" has absolutely no weight in the outcome of a match.
listen, any killer that my daughter(who is in kindergarten) can consistently 4K with while having no real concept of game mechanics or fundamentals is poorly designed. this isnt about winning or losing for the 50th time. its about boring and stale gameplay. mind games and outplaying your opponent is what makes this game fun. killers with no tactics for either side are not fun.
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May I ask if you've ever played as these killers, and if so what is your play experience is as them?
Apart from Skull Merchant, people don't mass DC against these other killers. I've also never seen anyone brag about making survivors DC'ing here. Fun is highly subjective, and fun-to-go-against even more so. In general, though, I've seen very few people outright say these killers are unfun to go against, aside from Twins, Knight, and SM.
Almost all of these killers, apart from Knight and Skull Merchant require varying levels of skill to use effectively. Trickster requires a lot of skill to be able to hit survivors with successive knife hits to get the injury and down. Twins are often described as being clunky to play as and often require the player to heavily rely on slugging a large number of people, which is high-risk high-reward. Xeno also requires skill to aim the tail and know when to use it, not to mention using the tunnels to patrol the map effectively. Pinhead needs to learn how to both get the portal to open in the right place and get it to hit the survivor, and on top of that he needs to play a macro game to keep survivors off the box. Artist requires players to make accurate placements to gut up close injuries, and proper reads to hit bird snipes. Dredge has to play around locker spawns and loops because he's an M1 killer. Singularity requires a lot of game sense, knowledge of the macro-game, and quick response times to maintain map pressure.
If these killers get you with their power, it's because they outplayed you, not because they were using "God Mode."
Killers don't play four 1v1's. They play a 4v1. They need to be able to down survivors quickly so they can move on to the next one, and powers that allow them to do so are a part of the game.
Edit: Edited for clarity.
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I literally just got out of a game where somebody suicided on 1st hook against billy in the first 60 seconds
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Which killers are you referring to, though?
Every killer in the game has some level of counterplay, you'll need to be more specific before people know what you're talking about.
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(almost)every killer since Oni. no killer since him has a realistic and/or reliable strategy to beat. they all come down to things like RNG and does the team split up and have 100% uptime on either being in chase or fixing gens. most of the time one teammate spending 60 seconds not doing obj will secure at least one kill for the killer. those killers secure hits that survivors have zero chance to prevent and absolutely no control over. that to me is not fun.
Post edited by thatkatemain2468 on1 -
Some of those are among the most counterable killers in the game, though, and some of them don't even have a loop power to begin with- like Sadako.
What makes them killers that make looping obsolete?
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sadako is not but the rest are for sure. xeno ingnores pallets and most loops by reaching over and traversing the map with ease. low TR and passive ability with very high uptime which requires no action to use. chucky, low TR faster moves and charge that ignores pallets and windows. singularity, teleports to survivors with imunity to pallets and increased movement speed. SM, nuff said. Knight, guards last forever. even though touching a hooked survivor makes them despawn theyre not a fun mechanic and dont have a reliable counterplay. trickster, artist, pinhead, pyramidhead, nemesis if u vault u get hit, if u drop the pallet u get hit. hold W and pray=not fun.
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You can counter all of these killers with some knowledge of how their powers work. Here's some tips against them.
Xeno can traverse the map quickly, but it still has to catch you. Use turret motion trackers to determine if it's nearby. It's power requires skill to aim, so you can use fakeouts to try and bait it into tail striking at an area you're not heading towards. Also, run to areas with turrets, as those will either divert its attention or break it out of power completely. If it decides to go back into the tunnels, then it's dropped chase and you can get away.
Chucky only gets one dash per power activation. If his first hit is a dash, then he's probably lost power, and you can loop him like a normal killer for the duration of his cooldown. If you're already injured, then that's unfortunate. My advice for avoiding free hits from Chucky is to check the source of every scamper sound around you. You'll be safer that way, and could probably escape from him with the speed boost if he does hit you.
Singularity has to tag you and fully lock on to teleport. That, or he has to use his pod gun. He only has bonus speed if he uses a specific purple rarity add-on. To avoid getting a teleport, grab EMPs from crates. They automatically print them for you. If you get tagged, then immediately using the EMP should get rid of the tracker and disable the pod, allowing you to make distance. The best defense against Singularity is to try to have an EMP ready as often as possible. If he does teleport to you, greed pallets and never drop them. Even if he gets a hit, the pallets are saved for later. If you do want to drop them, then predrop. He'll still break them quickly, but you'll be able to make some distance.
Skull Merchant: Wait for her drones to enter their passive scanning mode. You can hack them to disable them for a while.
Two of Knight's guards run slower than you, so you can always outrun them if you keep running. They all drop a banner where they see you, and that banner becomes available to collect when the horn sounds. If you can find a way to path back to the banner, then you can end the hunt early. The guard AI is really dumb, so you can fakeout at windows and they'll fall for it. If the Knight is chasing you as well, then he loses collision. You can run right through him, perhaps even back to the banner. You can also bait him into hitting you to avoid the two-tap.
For Artist, Pyramid Head, and Nemesis, look behind at them when they're chasing you. You should be able to tell when they're going to use their power and bait them. Artist and Pyramid Head can be baited into special attacking, which slows them down and puts their power on cooldown. Nemesis suffers a movement speed penalty for missing. You can use your mindgames to make distance, possibly to another loop.
Trickster needs to hit you several times (ten?) to injure you. You can make vaults even if he hits you with knives because he'll probably only get a couple hits if he's accurate. If he uses main event, jump in a locker. He'll either have to burn the whole thing hitting a wall, or cancel. If he cancels, he makes a groaning noise, which is your cue to get out of the locker and run.
Hopefully these tips help.
Edit: Clarified description of Chucky's power and added a couple Singularity tips.
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Yes, my friend. It is!
Almost 5 years, it has been a long journey. I would be really happy to end it with a victory.
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i havent really played killer since dedicated servers became a thing. but my daughter who button mashes gets 200 kills a week farming points for me. the killer role in general doesnt really take any skill. sub par killer players can mop elite teams on a consistent basis but good survivor teams still lose at least one player more than 50% of the time. again, this isnt about skill, winning or losing. its about fun. all of the killers i mentioned have some type of kit which puts survivors in a hold W and pray situation almost every single chase. that is not fun. i dont care about opinion when the sheer fact is that survivors skill should play a huge part in winning and losing and against these killers it does not.
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If your daughter is getting 200 kills a week ngl it sounds like your daughter should enlighten everyone on how she plays.
If your daughter is so good at Killer, she should have run into the occasional 4 sweat squad with map offerings/strong toolboxes as well. Is your daughter dominating against such teams too? It would be nice if you could share some gameplay so we could see how well she plays in chases and macroplay. What Killer does she main does is she capable of playing multiple Killers? Does she tunnel/proxy camp to win or just go for hook chases?
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i also forgot to address the "they outplayed you" part of this. all of these killers get guaranteed damage which survivors have zero ability or control to avoid. thats not being outplayed, thats facing a killer with a poor and unfun design.
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You keep insisting that this isn't about skill, yet the crux of your argument is that survivor skill should play a part in whether they win or lose. Here, you're ignoring the fact that these killers are designed around you learning new techniques and skills to outplay them.
"the killer role in general doesnt really take any skill." This is completely false and insulting to killer players. It's probably also why you struggle against them. You should try to learn how they play so you can better counter them. I already discussed how all of these killers actually have very high skill expression and take practice to get good at. If the killer player is more skilled at their killer, then they beat the survivors.
As to usually losing at least one team mate every game, BHVR have said multiple times that they want the average kill rate to be 60%, so you should be losing survivors almost every game. It's a multiplayer survival horror game.
It's not guaranteed if it takes skill to use. They're good at their killer, and it sounds like you don't have enough skill to play around them yet. Keep trying to learn something, and you'll gradually find they aren't free at all, and you can control whether they get a hit or not.
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again, those killers take zero skill and are designed for players who have never held a controller befor to be able to pick up a stick and excel from jump. the reason this is about skill is because killers who take zero skill and have zero RELIABLE counterplay is unfun to play against. not because dying of even teamwiping is unfun but because nothing that i do has any weight as to the games outcome, for the most part.
this is not an insult to killer players. the fact that playing killer has a skill ceiling that my child who is just past potty trained can easily reach and dominate in public games is simply being honest. if we were to make a comparison to a sport, to excel at the killer role means you need to be good enough to make the JV high school football team. but in order to be good at survivor you need to have the same skills and attributes as Tom Brady. in every aspect, from dexterity and skill with the controls, to game mechanics and fundamentals, to learning an individual killers power the role is easy. it has to be, if it wasnt the devs wouldnt be able to hold their 60% kill rate in the basement well and force it to "rub the lotion on its skin or else it gets the hose again", ya dig?
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watch this video in the most articulate version of my entire point. and yes, i discovered this thought from him and its been on my mind for a long time.
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