Facing Skull Merchant is still a miserable experience and her drones need a new rework
Even though Skull Merchant is not as popular as she was before her rework, people that still played as her (most, not all) have found out ways of exploiting her drones to proxy camp and, in turn, bypass the anticamp mechanic (which is a whole other problem on itself).
A Skull Merchant send me and my team to Gideon Meat Plant and stacked the area around the hook survivor with drones and she simply stood around a corner, waiting for someone to save, get injured by the drones a simply hold forward for the down thanks to the speed boost she receives and the hindered status survivors received when scanned.
Here are the screen shots I got from that match... Drones shouldn't been able to overlap or be place so closed to a hook survivor, this is ridiculous, a new rework is indeed needed.
Comments
-
Again issue that just doesn't feel to be unique for her in my opinion.
So she just camped you, that's it. She is definetly not best killer for camping.
There are things I would take as valid argument that might lead to changes and even know changes that could help to everyone, but her camping is really not one of them.
It may be difficult, but it is possible to save against Skull merchant, because she is still M1 killer.
This is combination of killer, playstyle and map. So you can as well say this is map offering issue.
13 -
I don’t feel this is a skull merchant issue at this point. The time blame her is over in my opinion. Any killer could’ve done this that are much much more skilled at camping than she is.
Do I think she needs a few little adjustments for quality of life for herself and survivors, yes. Do I think she needs an entire rework again no.
Also the drone slightly overlapping each other isn’t an issue because there’s a set amount of time. The survivor gets by default before they can be scanned again so it’s irrelevant.
5 -
I'm gonna have to disagree. She's more played and more popular now than she was during her 3 gen days. Only a select few people were willing to serve their role as a boring 3 gen merchant and stay in a long match. And the moment she was reworked, those infamous players stopped playing her; then more players started playing her because she became more easier to play as a chase killer and easier to win with.
But what she doesn't need is a nerf. Cause there are still people doing or giving up 1st hook. I don't blame them. She's insufferable. Now I don't condone doing of course but the devs need to do something about her again
2 -
I agree with you on everything you said except for the part where you said she’s insufferable. That seems way too extreme. Everyone has killers they don’t enjoy going against fine.
Skull Merchant just isn’t a major issue anymore. I’d rather deal with her than Knight, Legion or Wesker in my personal opinion.
6 -
But it is extreme. When you have the majority of the community still having issues with a killer, it's a problem. When you have a killer that causes the community to outright say her name in the comments during a discord stream over sadako rework; which was said when the dev in the stream say we rework killers that causes a high rate dc and is not enjoyable. They even acknowledged those people's comments when everyone said her name. So once again, I believe they have to go back to the drawing board for a 2nd time with her just like sadako. Doesn't even have to be another rework. She's too oppressive when it comes to status effects during chase.
1 -
She's too oppressive when it comes to status effects during chase.
So 3% haste and 10% hindered (delayed based on survivor's choices) is too oppresive in chase? You know that just purple bottle from clown is better than this? 15% + yellow bottle if needed...
Tell me how she is too oppressive?
7 -
A) It's not an anti-camp feature. It's an anti-face-camp feature for killers (mostly Bubbas) who stand right next to the hook.
B) Skull Merchant is far less oppressive on Gideon Meat plant than she used to be, now that her drones do not go through multiple floors. (Yet Boons still do?? 😒)
C) Any killer can proxy camp. Her drones only injure if the survivors have messed up on 3 serparate occasions and only apply hinder if they have a fully active claw trap on them (from getting scanned 3x, so 4+ scans).
D) At least your teammates can SEE the drones and crouch / stop moving when the scan is about to pass over them. It's better than Hag's power since the survivors cannot easily spot her marks and the Hag can proxy camp WHILE patrolling gens 48 meters away...
Post edited by Nos37 on5 -
I mean, clown doesnt injure you with 3 bottle hits. Make you broken and be in deep wound base kit. And not only that, you cant get rid of the drone ticks unless ur hooked or just take the injury. Yea. Thats too oppressive. And we havent even touched on her add ons giving more status effects.
1 -
How does broken help in chase exactly? You said in chase, only speed and slowdown matters from her current kit. You could say information to some extent, but I don't really see that oppresive...
If she has old pallet breaking, that would be oppresive, but that's gone...
4 -
Facts!! Exactly. People gotta get the bad taste out of their mouth regarding her and move forward. She’s not nearly what she use to be.
2 -
Yes, it’s true, the developer will make adjustments to a killer, when there is a high disconnection rate. However, the only reason that was brought up during the stream because the developers posed the question in the first place. Of course, people are going to respond, regardless of the topic which was the rework for Sadako.
There also is not a high disconnection rate for Sadako and that was not the whole purpose of the rework just to be clear, I’m not implying that you said that, of course.
0 -
Well. I wont go tit for tat over skull merchant on a forum. Ppl already do that here with multiple posts because of her. Ive done enough of that. Its already has been addressed by the devs, and whether you like it or not, she definitely will have a few adjustments in the future like sadako has already. Its not on the current schedule, but in due time she will be dealt with again.
1 -
Well, let's hope they will be reasonable and not balance based on survivors who can't even crouch...
0 -
I'll just leave this here, this guy goes into detail of why people still hate her.
1 -
It's long time since I have say this guy is incorrect many times and using only information that fits his narrative...
It's easy to see why she is not fun for survivors, skull merchant has currently two options in chase, hold W when healthy and predrop pallets when injured, which is not really an interactive chase for survivors.
2 -
I don't know but those pics not fitting to the story.
0 -
I’ve seen this video, and I really don’t agree with it at all. He doesn’t tell the whole story, and he uses a lot of details that fit his story and narrative.
Not to mention, he is an accurate on everything that he is showing in this video
1 -
I never said that everything in the video was pure and unadulterated truth, of course there's some bias.
However the "broad strokes" are pretty accurate about why people still hate her;
Outside of "Hold W" (an effective counter to all M1 Killers) and "hope your teammates don't get scanned while you're getting chased", there's very little meaningful (or unique) counterplay to her. Hacking the drones do nothing since she can recall them and re-place them in a second if a Survivor happens to be chased in a loop containing a deactivated drone and she can do so without slowing down.
Skull Merchant is arguably one of the least difficult Killer to get results with, with one button press a loop, no matter it's strength, is a death trap that even good players can't escape outside of simply leaving and hoping there's a connected tile. She can also do so ahead of time when coming across god-pallets and strong tiles to further reduce the amount of button presses needed during the chase.
Now you can say that as far as "nearly inevitable loss" then a good Blight and/or Nurse can also apply, but that's the thing: Nurse and Blight take practice to use efficiently. There's also the fact that SoloQ (the majority of the playerbase) can't relay drone locations and status to help reduce people getting scanned when turning a corner.
There's also the fact that she can also gains stealth on-demand for some reason and, unlike other stealth Killers who have some kind of audio cue or some kind of drawback (loud breathing and nothing special outside of Tier 3 for Myers, Wraith growling as well as not being able to attack until de-cloaked etc.) she has barely audible footsteps. She has so much in her arsenal for so little effort (not counting her add-ons which can add more status effects or make the base ones better) that it's overwhelming and hard to keep track of her status (especially for inexperienced/casual players and SoloQ).
...And also the fact that her first design gave PTSD to countless players and is almost single-handedly responsible (alongside Knight and Singularity) for the current ill-thought-out "Anti-3-gen system" that's creating all kinds of issues for weaker/M1 Killer while not bothering the powerhouses.
1 -
So let's take clowns power but when you throw a bottle it has about 4 times the aoe, stays permanently until removed by a mini game (automatically reactivates itself shorty after), grants undetectable every time he throws one, gives global tracking on anyone that enters, causes a myriad of other assorted status effects, oh and injures without him actually hitting you.
Yea I can totally see the comparison.
3 -
BHVR could do 2 things right now that would make Skull Merchant so much more enjoyable to play against.
- Deactivating drones removes 1 stack of Lock-On. (Maybe make it so survivors can't remove the last stack if it is considered too strong)
- Drones can no longer cause Hindered status effect
#1 gives survivors more options and counterplay while still allowing her to apply pressure with drones. A lot of times Skull Merchant will use drones in chases directly to slowdown and apply lock-on. Therefore such a change wouldn't hurt her playstyle much and would still provide slowdown.
#2 Allows survivors to actually have a chance in chase other than holding W until death. This makes her very uninteractive and boring for most survivors. She will just drop a drone and you are forced to leave. There is no skill or counterplay involved like other anti-loop killers.
The biggest issue with Skull Merchant is that her kit simply does too much at such a low cost.
Her kit has undetectable, haste, hindered for survivors, info and tracking, anti-loop, area denial and zoning, slowdown in order to clear out drones, and a way to passively injure with no way to reset it.
Skull Merchant gets most of these effects just quickly dropping drones with the press of a button which doesn't even slow her down. She simply just does way too much right now, even if she is in a better spot than her release form.
TLDR: They should either give her haste or hinder survivors but not both, and there should be a way to remove lock-on drone stacks. This alone would make her feel much better to play against.
2 -
Dude just crouch as soon as a drone goes off and you completely avoid the beams.
2 -
In order to make that comparison, the cloud of gas would have to only have a few portions of it that actually inflicts the slow, and the numbers would have to be tweaked down.
I've never understood why people say things like "Clown's bottle doesn't cover the whole loop", it's irrelevant for two reasons. One, Skull Merchant's drone doesn't either, only the beam actually matters and that's much smaller. Two, Clown's gas doesn't need to cover the whole loop because he can just aim it at you directly. You also can't crouch or stand still to avoid being slowed by Clown's gas.
Clown is a good comparison, in my opinion, not just because his power works similarly-but-stronger in chase but also because it's relevant to point out that if you can loop Clown, you can loop Merchant even after you've got a claw trap and you're getting hindered. The counterplay is the same; play around a dropped pallet until they're forced to break it, then make distance.
2 -
Skull Merchant is my main when I play killer. And when I play survivor and get to go up against a Skull Merchant, I do very well, 'cause I've been on recipient end of her counterplay. She's is not strong at all going against surv who know how to play against her.
The biggest issue with her is the average surv sticks with conventional counterplay they're used to with other killers.
- In loops treat her the way you'd go up against a lesser clown. Her drones do the exact same thing a clown bottle would (after scanning you x3), with lesser slowdown %/lesser speed up %, not to mention her "bottles" are stationary. Don't worry about broken status, you're in a chase, you won't be healing anyway.
- Outside chase, if you are getting scanned, it's entirely your fault! You can crouch through drone fields, play red light-green light, hack or even do gens/totems under a drone without it detecting you (doing objective under active drone is meta counterplay, since good skull merchants constantly check their radar to see which drones are hacked as giveaway for surv location)
- It takes three scans to get an injure/claw trap. She's the only killer I know that needs to hit a surv three times with her power to get an injure (and surv still complain). That is why the scans are semi-permanent.
- To keep track of how many times you've been scanned: 3 squares around your icon = 1st scan, 3 triangles around your icon = the 2nd scan and on 3rd scan you get 3 circles and a claw trap.
- Everytime you're scanned she gets a minor speed buff (+3%) for 12 sec and see you on her radar. A Claw Trap does the same thing, but lasts for 45 sec. Again, if you're getting scanned outside chase, it's on you, and you're buffing her across the map.
It helps to think of her power as "slow-down". If survs are used to having a rush mindset, they're likely to not take care with her drone fields (which are even visible on ground in stealth mode). In games that surv do very well against me, they've often played more patiently, and it is such a treat to see tbh.
Seriously, half the scans I get from average surv are from across the map. There is no excuse for this.
5 -
nearly inevitable loss
Artist, Dredge, Knight can all create setup where there is nothing survivor can do other than die.
Skull merchant is still an M1 killer with very limited anti-loop, she is not able to create inevitable loss situation on many pallets, she can get injury if survivors don't play correctly / don't have enough resources, but there is killer who can do it even more easily -> Legion.
She has so much in her arsenal for so little effort
She has quite a lot of things in her kit, but there is nothing she is best at currently. She used to be best defensive killer in dbd, for totem at least and tied with some on gens. I will gladly get that back over better stealth.
Her chase is worse than used to be, only thing better than before is stealth, everything else is worse, feel free to convince me otherwise.
.And also the fact that her first design gave PTSD to countless players and is almost single-handedly responsible
Yeah, I agree. Thing is you can't fix it anymore, so why bother?
3 -
You can deny clown's bottle by standing still, or crouching? That's new to me...
So your argument is it's easy to apply -> which you are wrong anyway and not it's too strong? because it's clearly not that good on % compare to him.
Clown's slowdown is definetly way easier to apply than skull merchant's. Her hindered is fully in hands of survivor how fast or if you can do it. It's easy and fast for Clown...
Her drones are not AOE anymore btw...
This was comparison for people crying about her anti loop, which is simply not that strong in my opinion.
3 -
While SM isn't the only one with powerful anti-loop, the others can be baited and there's some hope of the Killer miscalculating placement or timing (or in Knight's case, without Map of the Realm a Survivor can actually outrun his guards zone if they start to run away soon enough, it's the whole reason everyone wants it basekit).
I honestly wouldn't mind her being a "Jack of all Trades, Master of none" Killer if hacking the drone had an impact and, even in SoloQ, was useful. Something as simple as preventing SM from recalling them (and subsequently replacing them mid-chase without slowing down) for most of the duration after they are hacked. At the cost of being longer (add like 3-4 imputs in the QTE) to turn the counterplay into a strategy as when to hack them would be important.
Or even simply being able to remove a scan stack by hacking a drone.
This would encourage interaction with the drones (arguably providing minimal slowdown due to hacking being more common and longer) and making SM need to think more about drone usage since it would be better to keep drones for strong tiles rather than constantly recalling and spamming them at every loops.
She would always be a SoloQ/newcomer stomper (like every Killers with gimmicks) but at least Survivors could work around her power (at the cost of time and some risk due to being immobile) and like other trap Killers would be a Killer that is dealt with better out of chase than in chase.
1 -
So Clown's active chase power is slightly stronger but that's his entire kit.
Standing still during chase is not a viable option. You're just countering giving her a 3% haste by giving yourself 100% hindered.
You just leave out stealth, the still insane area denial that can't be countered, and the flood of status effects that she piles on, all with zero effort on her part.
It's been months since her rework. If she wasn't that bad anymore, people would have gotten over it by now. The rework was a failure and players will keep going next until it's addressed.
1 -
if hacking the drone had an impact
I have suggested two changes.
- Remove broken -> always mending like Legion
- Hacking drones make aura red for 10-15 seconds and drone can't be recalled during that time
I think that makes it easier for new players, who have issues staying injured and hacking drone becomes viable mid chase, because she won't be able to deploy drone again. Hacking drone will deny power with cost of information, which seems fair trade to me.
r even simply being able to remove a scan stack by hacking a drone.
That's terrible idea, it would be pointless to ever drop chase on people with lock on and Skully would be punished for trying to setup her drones in advance, which doesn't make sense.
0 -
So Clown's active chase power is slightly stronger but that's his entire kit.
We have different definitions of slightly...
Standing still during chase is not a viable option.
How so? What will she do when you standing next to dropped pallet?
The rework was a failure and players will keep going next until it's addressed.
I will gladly take old merchant back, wouldn't be an issue with 3-gen feature imo.
It's been months since her rework. If she wasn't that bad anymore, people would have gotten over it by now.
Not really, core issue is her chase is boring for survivors. That doesn't mean it's too strong.
the still insane area denial that can't be countered
How so? Her drones are harmless outside of chase, if you are not blind.
1 -
I genuinely wonder how many people complaining about SM still find her bad to play against and are not just circlejerking themselves. "SM is the worst killer in the game and feels awful to play against" was repeated consistently for so long that I think a lot of people conditioned themselves to believe it, so in their next match against her, they just instantly give up. And then they wonder why the devs are so careful when looking at the stats. Of course, SM has those stats if most people don't even try playing against her.
3 -
No offense, but hacking mid-chase, especially for newcomers, isn't really an option. Most people will take 3-5 seconds to hack a drone and in the context of a chase, being immobile in a loop is simply not a viable option.
But yeah, there should simply be a point to deactivating drones.
0 -
No offense, but hacking mid-chase, especially for newcomers, isn't really an option. Most people will take 3-5 seconds to hack a drone and in the context of a chase, being immobile in a loop is simply not a viable option.
not saying it's easy, but at least on PC I can do it reliably under 2 seconds, which is not impossible at all on safer loops and reward would be big.
0 -
Are all these pro skull merchant comments from developers? Cause that's te only reason for defending this rot is if you're paid for it.
0 -
Lol
1 -
give me a 10k hour nurse every day of the week over a skull merchant, at least they actually had to invest time to get decent at it.
0 -
Maybe DBD isn't for you then.
1
